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  #441  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 6:01 AM
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What attendance figures have you got for the Whitecaps/Lions? Whitecaps games drew capacity crowds at Empire Stadium. And the buzz around the city centered around the Whitecaps. Surely you remember that?

Surely there is enough evidence to reasonably suggest that soccer will be number two in Vancouver?

PS What page are these average attendance figures on?

Last edited by logan5; Mar 20, 2011 at 6:09 AM. Reason: ps
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  #442  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 6:03 AM
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It's at least nice that the Toronto media networks can't claim Toronto FC is "Canada's Team" like the Jays and Raptors
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  #443  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 6:10 AM
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I have great hope that soccer will help to internationalize the North American mindset, starting in fertile places like Vancouver. Who knows what sports people will be drawn to 20 years, 50 years or more from now. All cultural strongholds are but fads over the greater course of time.
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  #444  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 6:35 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post

What attendance figures have you got for the Whitecaps/Lions?

Surely there is enough evidence to reasonably suggest that soccer will be number two in Vancouver?
Not according to the historical record.

Attendance figures for the Whitecaps and Lions during the late seventies and early eighties can be found on page #16, in post # 307 of this thread. These figures show that during the zenith of the Whitecaps' popularity, the BC Lions significantly outdrew the Whitecaps. Take the 1983 season, for example, when the Whitecaps' average attendance peaked at an all-time high of 29,166. The B.C. Lions' average attendance, by contrast, was more than 45,000 that year.

The historical record is crystal clear: the Whitecaps never equaled the popularity of the BC Lions.

But if you have any other evidence, then let's hear it.

Last edited by Prometheus; Mar 20, 2011 at 6:58 AM.
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  #445  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 6:46 AM
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And what rational argument can you provide in support of your prediction, beyond personal hopes, wishes and dreams?
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However, no one has presented any compelling argument or evidence that they will do better than the BC Lions.
Anyways, you've conceded that the Lions/Whitecaps were equal at one time, so it's not out of the realm to suggest that the Whitecaps will surpass the Lions.
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  #446  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 7:03 AM
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Anyways, you've conceded that the Lions/Whitecaps were equal at one time, so it's not out of the realm to suggest that the Whitecaps will surpass the Lions.
Are we reading the same thread? I said no such thing and even posted links to attendance figures which show that the Whitecaps never equaled the popularity of the Lions.

Last edited by Prometheus; Mar 20, 2011 at 3:15 PM.
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  #447  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 7:07 AM
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Who's No. 2? Bet on the Whitecaps to beat out the Lions
By Lowell Ullrich, The Province March 17, 2011
Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Wh...#ixzz1H7d3AwxP

The reintroduction of the Vancouver Whitecaps has almost been textbook material. Textbook marketing. Textbook Vancouver. So far, they’ve been hard to miss despite having not yet played a Major League Soccer game.

They have dressed the statues at Morton Park near English Bay with jerseys bearing the logo of corporate sponsor which has given them life. Another uniform draped the statue of Gassy Jack Deighton at Maple Leaf Square.

Most symbolically perhaps, a Whitecaps scarf was wrapped around one of the lions on the Lions Gate Bridge, and may represent the biggest battle on the city’s sporting landscape in the last decade. That scarf wasn’t choking the lion. To the B.C. Lions, it just might only have looked that way.

There will undoubtedly be a Roberto Luongo jersey at the foot of the bridge when the NHL playoffs again roll around, signifying the overwhelming presence of the Vancouver Canucks. With a franchise valued at $262 million by Forbes magazine and reported profits of $70 million the last four years, the Canucks are the unquestioned leader.

But who is number two? Whether the Whitecaps or football’s Lions are the second-biggest sports show in town is being waged in corporate boardrooms across town and North America, though experts say the game is already over even before the MLS team makes its debut against Toronto FC at Empire Field.

“When the ball kicks off Saturday, the Whitecaps will automatically become the second-biggest sports property in the city simply on the basis of business valuation,” said Vancouver marketing consultant Tom Mayenknecht.

The fight for corporate cash is being waged by executives who had little to do with their respective teams just over a year ago.

Paul Barber, a former marketing head who helped grow Tottenham Hotspur into a $250 million business, parlayed a $4 million sponsorship with Bell Canada into two more founding partnerships for the Caps as their new chief executive officer. Those deals are each worth four times more than the five $250,000 premier deals sold by the Lions, insiders say.

Dennis Skulsky left Canwest Publishing, a $400 million operation before it went into receivership, with a mandate from owner David Braley to grow the business side of the Lions, whose franchise valuation is roughly one-third of the $35 million expansion fee paid by the Whitecaps.

“We’re having a terrific year already,” said Braley, who now competes for sponsor dollars here and in Toronto but no stranger to soccer, having once rescued the Vancouver 86ers. “Let’s hope [the Whitecaps] are successful. It’s not going to cause us to fail.”

Both teams feel there is a big enough fan base to support themselves and note they are partners in a pouring rights sponsorship at B.C. Place Stadium.

But both are going about the battle for corporate support in different ways, and there can be little doubt that so far the Whitecaps are winners.

The Bell deal has resulted in a countdown media campaign which has been as well-produced as anything seen in the city the since launch of the NBA’s Vancouver Grizzlies.

Not every move was met positively. The club this week fielded a note of concern from its $4 million sponsor over a video of a body-painted soccer model on the Caps website.

But the Bell deal, Barber said, positioned the Whitecaps into a reported $1 million partnership with EA Sports. The Burnaby-based gaming giant has been a sponsor the CFL has been chasing for years. Instead, among the national deals signed by the CFL is with Tim Hortons, worth $500,000 annually split among eight teams. The MLS is ahead simply on the strength of bigger numbers.

“[Bell] was a serendipitous sell,” Barber said. “They wanted something to continue in western Canada after the Olympics and they knew how potentially big soccer is with the community. Great brands breed great brands. Not to sound arrogant, but we’ve got to a point where we’re having to work through the number of partners rather than looking for them.”

But though Skulsky said CFL teams are a long way from giving in to selling their corporate soul on a uniform deal, the Lions remain positioned to withstand the return of soccer, having weathered a similar storm in 1974 when the Whitecaps joined the North American Soccer League (see chart). A larger balance sheet is not a guarantee of success.

“There’s room for all of us,” said Skulsky, who joined the Lions in May. “The most pleasant surprise for us is the strength of the brand. We continue building off a base that’s got stability. You’re going to find some [soccer and football] fans where there’s crossover. But sports is one of those things where you have to connect emotionally and if you do that you will be successful.”

In addition to several solid community-based programs, the Lions are also far ahead attracting sponsor interest through TV ratings and their business advisory group, the Waterboys, also gives them an ear to the ground locally.

“How the Lions hold their ground will depend on the leverage they get out of hosting the Grey Cup this year,” said Mayenknecht. Host of a Saturday sports business radio show on Team 1040, Mayenknecht knows both ends of the local market well. He helped launch the Grizzlies marketing as a vice-president and also tried to resurrect a National Lacrosse League franchise.

“The Lions have smaller revenue streams but they have familiarity, tradition and a very strong league,” Mayenknecht said. “There is no question the Whitecaps will not just survive, they will flourish. The real key, and I can’t stress this enough, is how they connect with the soccer community.”

Despite the silky-smooth marketing, not enough of the soccer community has responded to make the Saturday opener a true sellout of 27,500 seats for the Whitecaps, but Barber maintained the club has purposely held back tickets.

A mini-pack season ticket campaign is about to be launched, he said, and playing to a smaller audience fits in with a league business philosophy of looking good for the cameras.

“Supply and demand is carefully balanced in any business,” Barber said. “If there’s too much supply then demand sometimes doesn’t correlate. If you sell out too quickly you limit the ability for people to sample your product.”

Whether the Whitecaps can survive by tapping into a widening ethnic base won’t likely be known for a year or two, or at least until the mainstream paying customer can identify more than a handful of players on the team.

Barber says the Whitecaps will begin slowly though, perhaps realizing the dire on-field forecasts for the expansion side may prove to be true. There will be no running for cover from supporters groups, he said. Email addresses of club executives will be front and centre in the game program Saturday.

“The challenge [at Tottenham] was that there was a real danger of losing touch with the community. We don’t want to appear closed,” said Barber. “We don’t sell cel phones. We don’t sell cars. We sell soccer.”

And if they have to drape a team scarf around iconic city landmarks which also serve as the nickname for a competitor, they’ll do it one fan at a time.

“I go to the same local Starbucks and one day the lady behind the counter says, ‘I saw you on the news; you’re the Whitecaps guy ... and you look so much older in the flesh’,” joked Barber.

“But the fact you’re recognized for what we’re here for is enough for me. She knew the brand. Our work has been about the front office; getting the city excited. Now we flick a switch.” Let the corporate games begin.

lullrich@theprovince.com

© Copyright (c) The Province

Last edited by tovan; Mar 20, 2011 at 7:21 AM.
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  #448  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 7:13 AM
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Not according to the historical record.

Attendance figures for the Whitecaps and Lions during the late seventies and early eighties can be found on page #16, in post # 307 of this thread. These figures show that during the zenith of the Whitecaps' popularity, the BC Lions significantly outdrew the Whitecaps. Take the 1983 season, for example, when the Whitecaps' average attendance peaked at an all-time high of 29,166. The B.C. Lions' average attendance, by contrast, was more than 45,000 that year.

The historical record is crystal clear: the Whitecaps never equaled the popularity of the BC Lions.

But if you have any other evidence, then let's hear it.
OK. For you the numbers speak.

Take the 1983 season, for example.

BC Lions - 8 home games x 45 000 = 360 000

Vancouver Whitecaps - 15 home games x 29 166 = 437 490

So 77 000 more people went to see the Whitecaps that year in BC Place, where capacity is not an issue.

I'm a little lazy, so thanks for posting those numbers for me.

Last edited by logan5; Mar 20, 2011 at 7:20 AM. Reason: math
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  #449  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 7:47 AM
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Attendance doesn't always tell the whole story. 2-3 times more people go to Blue Jays games than Maple Leafs games, but to conclude that the Jays are 2-3 times more popular in Toronto is onerous.

It's safe to say that historically, the Lions have been more popular than the local soccer team by a significant margin. Things may be different now as imported sports like soccer have surged in popularity, while domestic sports like football are far less dominant than they used to be. Maybe in another generation, it will be hockey's turn to take a back seat? One thing is true, nothing stays the same forever.
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  #450  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 8:53 AM
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Attendance doesn't always tell the whole story. 2-3 times more people go to Blue Jays games than Maple Leafs games, but to conclude that the Jays are 2-3 times more popular in Toronto is onerous.

It's safe to say that historically, the Lions have been more popular than the local soccer team by a significant margin. Things may be different now as imported sports like soccer have surged in popularity, while domestic sports like football are far less dominant than they used to be. Maybe in another generation, it will be hockey's turn to take a back seat? One thing is true, nothing stays the same forever.
Personally. I think hockey will forever be THE sport here in Canada, and specifically here in Vancouver. The Whitecaps are surging in popularity at the moment. Anyone see the game on TSN today? The sense of excitment you can feel throughout the city. Pretty crazy. Even my gf was excited about seeing the team, and she's not even a soccer fan.

I have nothing against the Lions. I want them to do well as well, and I think they will. Lots of support and love for them. But I think one of the reasons why the Whitecaps FC will surpass to become the #2 team in the city behind the Canucks, is they do play in the highest league here in north america. The Lions, as beloved as they are, do not. The CFL is the highest (and only) league in Canada, but not in North America (that would be the NFL). I wish both franchises nothing but the best. But man, I've been converted to a Whitecaps FC fan! Pretty entertaining game this afternoon. I'm already looking forward to the game against Philadelphia.

For now, and until the Lions begin their season, it looks like the Canucks are #1, Whitecaps FC #2, and BC Lions #3. Will the success of the Whitecaps FC bring in other professional sports franchises to this town? The NBA? the NLL? MLB? I read an article (forgot where), but in it, Trevor Linden said that the Olympics has given this city the opportunity to not only dream big, but accomplish big things in terms of sport. Maybe the next "big" thing may be the NBA returning. David Stern has got to be salivating, after seeing the Canucks being successes, and how well the 'Caps were received today. One day, maybe.
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  #451  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Attendance doesn't always tell the whole story. 2-3 times more people go to Blue Jays games than Maple Leafs games, but to conclude that the Jays are 2-3 times more popular in Toronto is onerous.

It's safe to say that historically, the Lions have been more popular than the local soccer team by a significant margin. Things may be different now as imported sports like soccer have surged in popularity, while domestic sports like football are far less dominant than they used to be. Maybe in another generation, it will be hockey's turn to take a back seat? One thing is true, nothing stays the same forever.
The Maple Leafs/Blue Jays comparison is a bad one. The difference in attendance can be largely attributed to the difference in capacity between the ACC and the Skydome (yes, I still call it that). With the Caps and Lions playing in the same building, that isn't a factor.
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  #452  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 8:55 AM
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Also, just wondering, but is the stadium the 'Caps were pursuing (the soccer specific stadium) dead? or just postponed?
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  #453  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 8:59 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
OK. For you the numbers speak.

Take the 1983 season, for example.

BC Lions - 8 home games x 45 000 = 360 000

Vancouver Whitecaps - 15 home games x 29 166 = 437 490

So 77 000 more people went to see the Whitecaps that year in BC Place, where capacity is not an issue.

I'm a little lazy, so thanks for posting those numbers for me.
That's too funny on so many levels.

First, using total attendance (as opposed to average attendance) to compare the popularity between a league with an 8-game season and a league with a 15-game season is absurd and requires no response.

Second, the BC Lions played ten, not eight, games in BC Place in 1983: a playoff game on November 20th and the Grey Cup on November 27th with attendances of 59,409 and 59,345, respectively.

360,000 + 59,409 + 59,345 = 478,754

So 41,264 more people went to see the BC Lions that year in BC Place.

Thus, even using your preposterous formula, the BC Lions still managed to beat the Whitecaps in total attendance despite playing five less games than them.

Last edited by Prometheus; Mar 20, 2011 at 9:41 AM.
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  #454  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 9:48 AM
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That's too funny.

First, using total attendance (as opposed to average attendance) to compare the popularity between a league with an 8-game season and a league with a 15-game season is ridiculous and requires no response.

Second, the BC Lions played ten, not eight, games in BC Place in 1983: a playoff game on November 20th and the Grey Cup on November 27th with attendances of 59,409 and 59,345, respectively.

360,000 + 59,409 + 59,345 = 478,754

So 41,264 more people went to see the BC Lions that year in BC Place.

Thus, even using your preposterous formula, the BC Lions still managed to beat the Whitecaps in total attendance despite playing five less games than them.
It costs more to see more games, consequently you get a lower average attendance. At many baseball games you see attendance figures in the 10 000 range because there are 81 home games. You can't make conclusions based on average attendance.

You didn't mention the attendance figures for the Whitecaps playoff games.

Ultimately what makes a franchise valuable is its fan base. At this moment the Whitecaps are worth 3 times as much as the BC Lions. The market has spoken.
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  #455  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 11:11 AM
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I seem to remember hearing similar debates about which team will be #2 months ago here. Why are we still arguing about this ? Can't we just be happy that we got another professional sports team and they played beautifully today ? This could be the start of something big with regards to other professional sports teams coming to Vancouver as well.
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  #456  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 12:15 PM
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Ultimately what makes a franchise valuable is its fan base. At this moment the Whitecaps are worth 3 times as much as the BC Lions.
I see. So, according to your logic, the Whitecaps (who prior to today were playing in Swangard Stadium) have a fan base 3 times larger than the BC Lions. And yet the attendance for their heavily-promoted, long-anticipated, once-in-a-lifetime inaugural MLS game was 5,000 less than the BC Lions' regular season opener at Empire Field last year and 10,000 less than the BC Lions' average attendance at BC Place. Wow, that's strange.

LOL.

Look, you clearly do not know what you are talking about. A greater market valuation does not entail a greater fan base, as a modicum of research into the issue would have told you. Even the above article does not make the mistake of inferring greater fan support from greater corporate support or higher franchise fees. Indeed, it notes that, unlike the BC Lions in last season's home opener, the Whitecaps failed to sellout Empire Field, despite all the hype of this being their inaugural game and one of the slickest and longest marketing campaigns that Vancouver has ever seen. It also notes BC Lions' clear superiority in sponsor interest through TV ratings.

On every rational measure of fan base (i.e., attendance, television ratings), the BC Lions beat the Whitecaps by a wide margin. Indeed, the CFL as a whole beats the MLS hands down. Now, if you believe that this state of affairs will change, then fine, it's a free country and you're entitled to your beliefs. But every argument you have advanced to support such a belief has been shown to be unsound.

Last edited by Prometheus; Mar 20, 2011 at 3:41 PM.
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  #457  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 4:17 PM
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the Whitecaps failed to sellout Empire Field
As far as I know, it did sell out. The capacity has been made lower for soccer than for CFL.

Clearly you have personal feelings for the Lions, and feel threatened by any suggestion that the MLS team might eclipse them. But any rational analysis of the franchise value or sponsorship deals shows that the Whitecaps are on a different level from the Lions.
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  #458  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 4:26 PM
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The caps having significantly larger sponsorship dollars proves that the people who have done their research feel the caps will come out on top. People dont just throw 4 million around without looking into the fundamentals behind the investment.

Whether the Caps can hold onto their number two ranking is in the air, but for the time being it seems they are the prize in the eyes of the all mighty dollar.

And yes the Whitecaps did sell out Empire.
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  #459  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 5:34 PM
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And yes the Whitecaps did sell out Empire.
No, they didn't, if words have any meaning. Empire Field has 27,000 seats. Covering-up 5,000 seats and selling what remains because you are worried that you cannot sell all 27,500 seats is not "selling out" Empire Field. The BC Lions, by contrast, easily sold all 27,500 seats for their home opener at Empire Field. Thus the only team to have ever "sold out" Empire Field, is the BC Lions, which is an amazing feat for a team which is "1/3 as popular" as the Whitecaps.

Last edited by Prometheus; Mar 20, 2011 at 9:45 PM.
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  #460  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 5:37 PM
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Those video side boards were really cool. Did they exist in real life or was that some TV trick?
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