Budweiser Gardens? WTF?

[Djeffery]

I don't know how much seating they gain with filling in the west end of the upper level but I think it's closer to a 1000 than a few thousand. (the lower level is at least 2/3 of capacity, so the upper level now only seats 2500-3000). I don't know if that also comes at the expense of the standing room currently at the west end, so maybe a net gain of 800 or so. And that is only for hockey as those seats won't be used for concerts, other than the rare "in the round" show. I'm not sure what it would cost to do that, but 1000 new seats probably only generates $750k in Knights sales and then maybe $60k-70k per show that uses them. Would the Knights pay more in rent to justify the construction cost of that to only hopefully gain another 1000 seats a game? I think to boost this place to 12k+ is a major construction project that would cost more than this $33million would, if it's even really possible at all.

[jammer139]

Actually could be around ~2000 more seats if the west end upper bowl was rebuilt to mirror the east end. Would get the arena to ~12,000 seats which is a nice increase. Filling in the west end parking lot would dramatically increase the back of house space with larger dressing rooms, storage, loading docks. Heard the current plan is a $15M first phase. Not sure what that entails. Whatever eventually is proposed they need to consider all the options.



https://www.budweisergardens.com/eve...seating-charts

[GreatTallNorth2]

https://www.therecord.com/news/water...n-planner.html

This is an article from The Record (K/W Newspaper) which states that K/W could sell the land the Auditorium is on and build a new 12,000 arena somewhere else. So this is what London is facing - a refurbished 17,000 seat arena in Hamilton and a possible new 12,000 seat arena in K/W. So if London is thinking we just need to add a few storage spaces, etc at Budweiser Gardens, it is just more short term thinking. We had it good for 20 years with a smaller Aud in K/W and outdated arena in Hamilton. We cannot bank on that for the future. At a very minimum we need to be the same or bigger than K/W's future arena. I am sure the arena business is the same as any other business - it's about economics and how much money can you get from events.

[Djeffery]

I did some calculating using a seat map for the Jon Pardi country show in November, and those 6 sections on the east end of the upper level seat about 1500 (approx, as I didn't feel like counting every single dot lol). So if those 6 sections were replicated on the west end, that brings the hockey seating up to a little under 10,500 (given the loss of the standing room currently in that location). Increasing the hockey seating doesn't do anything for competitiveness to KW or Hamilton because we aren't really competing with them for hockey, except for one event. And we aren't going to get that one event in this part of the country. For all the talk of Hockey Canada looking to go back to the grass roots of junior hockey, the WJC will always choose an NHL size arena in Ontario. And I don't think anyone here really cares to be the secondary host city.

Those 1500 seats also do nothing for us for concerts because as I said above, they aren't going to be used for concerts given that they are behind the stage. When I first saw Shania here 20 years ago, she set up at centre ice and they filled the arena to just over 10,000. Very few shows ever do that type of setup though. If KW trumps us with a larger arena, there isn't much we can do with BG to compete with that short of building new again. We need a few thousand more seats east of the west goal line and I don't think there is a cost effective way to do that.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I did some calculating using a seat map for the Jon Pardi country show in November, and those 6 sections on the east end of the upper level seat about 1500 (approx, as I didn't feel like counting every single dot lol). So if those 6 sections were replicated on the west end, that brings the hockey seating up to a little under 10,500 (given the loss of the standing room currently in that location). Increasing the hockey seating doesn't do anything for competitiveness to KW or Hamilton because we aren't really competing with them for hockey, except for one event. And we aren't going to get that one event in this part of the country. For all the talk of Hockey Canada looking to go back to the grass roots of junior hockey, the WJC will always choose an NHL size arena in Ontario. And I don't think anyone here really cares to be the secondary host city.

Those 1500 seats also do nothing for us for concerts because as I said above, they aren't going to be used for concerts given that they are behind the stage. When I first saw Shania here 20 years ago, she set up at centre ice and they filled the arena to just over 10,000. Very few shows ever do that type of setup though. If KW trumps us with a larger arena, there isn't much we can do with BG to compete with that short of building new again. We need a few thousand more seats east of the west goal line and I don't think there is a cost effective way to do that.

So the question is: does it make sense to sink $33 million into the arena? I don’t think so

[Djeffery]

I just want to see what that 33mil is for. Seems awfully high for basically a warehouse extension with some interior amenities. Can't imagine the place is due for new seats, which even at a hundred bucks a pop wouldn't be a million.

[jammer139]

Presentation at this weeks corporate services committee.


Has detailed diagrams



https://pub-london.escribemeetings.c...cumentId=99328

[Djeffery]

So, no proposal for new seating. In fact, it might be a slight loss with those 200 level loge seats, which look like nice new big comfy chairs replacing a couple rows of regular seats in front of the restaurant. And speaking from my line of work, I would really love it if they changed the loading dock configuration. No idea why they aren't directly straight in from Ridout instead of the angle they currently have. I know I've nudged that wall on the left when backing a smaller trailer in around a trailer sitting in the door on the right (speaking from the perspective of the drivers seat). I can only imagine the frustration with the guys in 53 footers with sleeper cabs with a road crew trying to move a show in and out quickly lol. Which also raises the question of where are those trucks going to park now? A small show might fit in 1 or 2 trailers and they leave them in the 2 docks. But even the picture in that report shows 2 in the docks, 6 in the parking lot and a bus as well. Don't know where all those trucks are going to park.

[GreatTallNorth2]

I hope council absolutely opposes this funding request. What are the Knights going to do if we don't upgrade their dressing room? Move somewhere else? I am not opposed to the city spending some money upgrading the arena, but it's a non starter for me if there is not more capacity. Plus they should be thinking much bigger and creating an arena district on the parking lot with shops and residential, etc.

[Djeffery]

I wonder where the Knights lease sits right now? I'm assuming their rent would be adjusted for leasehold improvements, like most other companies that lease space (or pay for it themselves)?

[Djeffery]

Craig Needles talked about the Bud on his podcast today, I highly recommend it. Brian Ohl said that as for seating, they are comfortable with what they have. The head of Tourism London said the back of house area was a specific reason that they were given that we haven't landed the World Juniors yet. Needles also tweeted earlier that a senior exec with OVG said to build this arena today would be $250million.

[jammer139]

City council wants more info about the proposal to renovate the arena.


https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/...rdens-overhaul

[GreatTallNorth2]

Unfortunately I don't think our council will do much to push the envelope here. They are just being prudent to make sure the numbers work. I would be more supportive of this project if they were increasing the capacity or adding more of an arena district on the land. But they are just refreshing the interior and adding storage, which might be needed but might not be the best return on investment for what the city (taxpayers) are being asked to invest.

[jammer139]

CTV article on the latest update on the proposed upgrades for Budweiser Gardens.



https://london.ctvnews.ca/upgrades-t...port-1.6580820

[jammer139]

Report including slide deck for the proposed $33M two phase renovation of the Bud.


https://pub-london.escribemeetings.c...umentId=103306

[GreatTallNorth2]

I think the price tag is $33 million now. Either way I am totally opposed to spending that money there, especially if there is no capacity increase. It's essentially corporate welfare. That money can be spent on other tourism ventures. London is really lacking in actual attractions and that money would go a long way in building something desireable in the downtown.

[MolsonExport]

yeah, I vote no to this form of corporate welfare.

[Djeffery]

Definitely some of this work needs to be done. the back of house expansion is necessary to keep getting large events, especially the multi-day things that actually bring tourist dollars. I think the Knights can pay for their own dressing room unless this is something that will increase their rent. Some of this other stuff, I don't really care about. Lounges and bars don't interest me and the loge seats look like they are taking away seating that already exists. It is a city owned facility for the most part so I'm not sure I this counts as corporate welfare, especially since the private part of the public private partnership I think is also kicking in cash on this.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Definitely some of this work needs to be done. the back of house expansion is necessary to keep getting large events, especially the multi-day things that actually bring tourist dollars. I think the Knights can pay for their own dressing room unless this is something that will increase their rent. Some of this other stuff, I don't really care about. Lounges and bars don't interest me and the loge seats look like they are taking away seating that already exists. It is a city owned facility for the most part so I'm not sure I this counts as corporate welfare, especially since the private part of the public private partnership I think is also kicking in cash on this.

I don't doubt it might be nice to be done but when you said it needs to be done, what does that mean? And what is the cost/benefit vs. spending that money on another venue?

I just don't think they have a right to that money and I certainly don't think politicians should hand it over without public input.

The public private partnership is a nice situation if you are OVG360 because they are getting most of the money for free and they reap most of the benefits. It's not like it's a not for profit company like the Western Fair, etc. It's a for profit company. I have no problem with profit, but I don't like how willing counsellors are to just hand over money without exploring what else it could be spent on.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

I don't doubt it might be nice to be done but when you said it needs to be done, what does that mean? And what is the cost/benefit vs. spending that money on another venue?

I just don't think they have a right to that money and I certainly don't think politicians should hand it over without public input.

The public private partnership is a nice situation if you are OVG360 because they are getting most of the money for free and they reap most of the benefits. It's not like it's a not for profit company like the Western Fair, etc. It's a for profit company. I have no problem with profit, but I don't like how willing counsellors are to just hand over money without exploring what else it could be spent on.

But your singular focus has been on seating capacity and it sounds like you would be all in if they came back and said we are spending tens of millions on adding a couple thousand seats. And there is only one place they could add seats and as discussed upthread, they don't add anything for concerts, where everyone agrees it would be nice to have more seats.

There are suites that they are trying to extract tens of thousands of dollars a year out of companies and they haven't been renovated in over 20 years. We have a crappy scoreboard that is getting replaced. I'm not a restaurant guy but I assume kitchen equipment needs to be replaced. The catering department for group events and suites I'm sure needs the occasional upgrade to be able to efficiently service those higher spending clients and suck more money out of them. I'm neither here nor there on the entire food and beverage operation because I don't partake of any of it when I'm there. But obviously many people do and this area is a huge driver of revenue, and most restaurants do spend large dollars to refresh themselves every couple decades or so, so I don't see why the arena has to be different in that respect.

The building addition at the west end is to replace the amateur looking tents they have to put up when they have a large event. It's an event space, not just a storage room and could also be used for things on it's own not even related to the arena. I could see that space being incorporated into Dundas Place events where sometimes it might be nice to have something to do indoors as well as outdoors. As I mentioned a few months ago, the need for those tents was listed as a main reason why we are overlooked for World Juniors and are at risk of not getting things like Junos and CCMA, or other large sporting events coming back. The World Juniors thing could just be an excuse because as I said I don't believe they are ever coming here when they know they have the cash cow of large NHL arenas not too far away.

As for the other things they list, admin offices, Knights dressing room. I don't know. I have no idea what the Knights are doing with $2.5 million in the locker room and another 1.8 million in their offices and how much more they end up paying in rent due to that. I would tend to say they can pay that themselves but given they are a tenant, I don't know how that works. The admin office is only half a million, which is like 8% of what the private side of the partnership is kicking in to this so I don't really have an issue with that.