Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[YYCguys]

Premier Ed Stelmach had anticipated a deal by Oct. 1. A spokesman for the premier said that goal likely won’t be met, as talks are still ongoing.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/Time+pu...#ixzz1dcK1jc80

Let's see, the article was written today, Nov 13th, and the author of the article states that the goal of October 1st likely won't be met??!? HA! Now there's some good writing for you!

Tsuu T’ina Chief Sandford Big Plume was unavailable for comment, but a source with the band confirmed negotiations are ongoing.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/Time+pu...#ixzz1dcKntHLu

Negotiations have been ongoing for 40 bloody years! We'd better see a resolution before the next road construction season begins! This is getting ridonkulous!!!

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Negotiations have been ongoing for 40 bloody years! We'd better see a resolution before the next road construction season begins! This is getting ridonkulous!!!

Not sure where everyone is getting this '40 years' number from. Talks only started in 1984. Even then, those talks were at a time when the land-use was in a state of transition. Most of the land in question was not returned to the Reserve until 1992, and even then, it was in title only; the physical land wasn't returned until later, when the military vacated and cleared the land. The military's lease on the open-range portion that the road was planned to go over wasn't set to expire until 2005, with an option to renew until 2010.

(In fact, the barracks portion, the 320 acres directly west of 37th street, had a lease that did not expire until 2050!)

With the value of the land in flux, I doubt any real negotiations were even undertaken while the military were still on site. If the military had decided to stay for as long as it could, any negotiations that happened in 1992 (for instance) would be so out of date by 2010 that it would hardly be worth doing.

Negotiations over this route for a provincial ring road has only been ongoing since 2003.

(Sorry, I wasn't having a go at you, YYCGuys. I have just seen that figure in the newspaper about 4 times in the last week alone!)

[jsbertram]

I think this '40 years' mis-quote is because everyone has known since the 1970's when Cedarbrae, Woodbine, Oakridge and Midnapore were being developed that something like Deerfoot Trail would be needed on the west side of the city.

There may not have been any negotiations for use of the reserve lands until the last decade or so, but the need for what we now know as SW Stoney Trail has been apparent to anyone living south of the reservoir ever since those communities, and others further south, were built.

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I think this '40 years' mis-quote is because everyone has known since the 1970's when Cedarbrae, Woodbine, Oakridge and Midnapore were being developed that something like Deerfoot Trail would be needed on the west side of the city.

There may not have been any negotiations for use of the reserve lands until the last decade or so, but the need for what we now know as SW Stoney Trail has been apparent to anyone living south of the reservoir ever since those communities, and others further south, were built.

That makes a lot of sense.

I have just been doing a little research, and this is the timeline of events as I can piece them together:

A connector road here was first identified in 1959; It was proposed as a potential Expressway, and in 1963 reclassified as a Parkway. In 1968 it was further re-classified as a Freeway. The alignment was within the City of Calgary limits at the time, though today it would include Nation land (The purchase of 980 acres of land on the north east corner of the reserve by the military predates the first conception of the road by 7 years). It was proposed to run south from Sarcee Trail, skirting the west-edge of the Weaselhead and connecting to the 37th street alignment south of the reservoir.

It wasn't until 1977 that the formal possibility of running the road through the Tsuu T'ina land emerged when the Reid & Crowther report showed 2 of the 3 routing options through the Tsuu T'ina lands.

Until 1984, the Nation publicly stated that they were not interested in a road through their reserve, although in 1982 they allowed and co-funded a routing study on Nation land.

Apart from the Southwest Calgary Transportation Study in 1987, there doesn't seem to be any appreciable progress on planning of the road until the province took over the project in 2003, with the 'current' iteration of the route seemingly set in 2005.

I don't know if this is as interesting to others as it is to me (I hope it is!). There has been so much misinformation relating to this road that I wanted to get the facts for myself, and thought I would share it if anyone else was interested.

[jsbertram]

I'm wondering if your timeline should include that the NE corner of the reserve lands north of the Weaselhead and west of 37th St were for decades DND lands that were leased from the reserve, but this was found to be in error so the courts ordered that lands had to be cleaned up and returned to the reserve.

That might be why the plans in the 1960s and 70s assumed the NE reserve land would be transferred from the DND to the City so the Sarcee Trail could continue south of Glenmore Trail and across the Weaselhead to get to 37th St south of the reservoir.

[Calgarian]

Is highway 22x (Marquis or Lorne trail) going to be re named Stoney Trail once the ring road is connected in the SE?

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Is highway 22x (Marquis or Lorne trail) going to be re named Stoney Trail once the ring road is connected in the SE?

Yes. For the first phase I believe Spruce Meadows Trail will survive until they extend into the SW. They did toy with the idea of a dual 201/22X classification for a while though.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Is highway 22x (Marquis or Lorne trail) going to be re named Stoney Trail once the ring road is connected in the SE?

I don't remember Highway 22x east of MacLeod Tr being renamed "Deerfoot Trail" when 22x and Deerfoot were finally connected, but the Deerfoot extension further south to DeWinton existed only on paper.

Plans are a bit sketchy, but what I've seen is SW Stoney Trail has a major intersection with Highway 22x (aka Marquis de Lorne Trail; aka Spruce Meadows Trail) with provisions to continue Stoney Trail south to Black Diamond and Okotoks.

In the 50+ year plans I've seen, there will be an outer ring road built between Okotoks, Chestermere, Airdrie and Cochrane. The inner express lanes of the SW Stoney Trail would be added at that time to make the connection between Cochrane and Okotoks since the ROW through the reserve is already there -- assuming the SW Stoney Trail is built on reserve land. If the SW Stoney Trail turns out to be a 37th St alignment completely within the city boundaries, then the west side of the outer ring road would somehow get past the reserve west of Bragg Creek and skirt the foothills back to Turner Valley.

That's far enough in the future to be a problem by our grand-kids' grand-kids to solve if we're still using personal transportation devices like cars.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Yes. For the first phase I believe Spruce Meadows Trail will survive until they extend into the SW. They did toy with the idea of a dual 201/22X classification for a while though.

You know that's not a bad idea.
That way someone who is coming from the east or west of the city on 22x won't wonder why they're suddenly on a different highway.. have dual signage, then at some point signage indicating they need to exit to continue on 22x.

Although I suppose if there's signage once they come onto the 201 indicating a distant exit to continue on 22x that would do the job also.

[Seadood]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

You know that's not a bad idea.
That way someone who is coming from the east or west of the city on 22x won't wonder why they're suddenly on a different highway.. have dual signage, then at some point signage indicating they need to exit to continue on 22x.

Although I suppose if there's signage once they come onto the 201 indicating a distant exit to continue on 22x that would do the job also.

In a perfect world. But the people in charge of signage aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer. Before the Deefoot Extension opened and #2 duplexed with 22x, I seem to recall there was NO signage indicating what happend to #2 when you exited. Sort of left you hanging. Back then they experimented with stupidly huge signage with those massive directional arrows and oh-so-informative decals for city centre, airport, etc.
If anyone comes into the city from the south, have a look at the signage just prior of the Okotoks interchange. The sign clearly states that 2 south needs to exit, to get to Okotoks and Dewinton. Of course, should say 2a.
Signage for duplexed highways in this province is sorely lacking.
Sask. does a far superior job in that aspect.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

You know that's not a bad idea.
That way someone who is coming from the east or west of the city on 22x won't wonder why they're suddenly on a different highway.. have dual signage, then at some point signage indicating they need to exit to continue on 22x.

Although I suppose if there's signage once they come onto the 201 indicating a distant exit to continue on 22x that would do the job also.

I'm not entirely sure why Stoney was used for the name of the East Freeway. I think it made more sense when Stoney was the name of the road between Glenmore and the (unnamed) Future East Freeway, Glenmore stayed Glenmore, the portion between Glenmore and 22X was Sarcee, and so on. It could all have been signed as the 201 but, to me at least, these are all separate roads, many of which continue on. It really isn't like the Edmonton Ring Road which is a single road; it is five distinct roads, portions of which form a ring.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Question regarding the southeast leg. According to the schedule here, all of the work is scheduled to be completed except 22x and Deerfoot (2013) is scheduled to be complete by Nov 2012. Will they open the stretch between 17 ave se and 22x once it's done?

Anyone?

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Anyone?

It does not look like any portion of the road will be openned early.

http://www.sestproject.ca/wp-content...-July-2011.pdf

The Alberta Government signed a 33-year agreement with Chinook Roads Partnership to design, build, operate and partially finance the southeast leg of the Stoney Trail ring road from its junction at 17 Avenue SE, south along the City of Calgary’s eastern limit, then west along Highway 22X to east of the Macleod Trail interchange. This new road will be opened to traffic by the Alberta Government in the fall of 2013.

Further within the update are numerous references to interchanges openning in fall 2013.

This is similar to te NE portion of Stoney, the road was substantially completed the fall and spring before the November start date. There was even time to host bike race on the road in August.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Cage

It does not look like any portion of the road will be openned early.

http://www.sestproject.ca/wp-content...-July-2011.pdf



Further within the update are numerous references to interchanges openning in fall 2013.

This is similar to te NE portion of Stoney, the road was substantially completed the fall and spring before the November start date. There was even time to host bike race on the road in August.

The agreement likely has a partial early open bonus that incents even not fully complete operation earlier than the posted date. Pretty standard in P3s. Unless the province made the same mistake twice, I doubt it won't be open a day more than necessary.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

You know that's not a bad idea.
That way someone who is coming from the east or west of the city on 22x won't wonder why they're suddenly on a different highway.. have dual signage, then at some point signage indicating they need to exit to continue on 22x.

Although I suppose if there's signage once they come onto the 201 indicating a distant exit to continue on 22x that would do the job also.

I have to think there will be something guiding people at either end of the Stoney stretch where 22X is now. Common sense is good too. Hey, I'm still traveling East/West, so all is good! Anyway, I believe the intention would be to phase out the 22X moniker eventually (Highway 1 bypass!) so it wouldn't be good to put it on Ring Road signage.

Originally Posted by Seadood

In a perfect world. But the people in charge of signage aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer. Before the Deefoot Extension opened and #2 duplexed with 22x, I seem to recall there was NO signage indicating what happend to #2 when you exited. Sort of left you hanging. Back then they experimented with stupidly huge signage with those massive directional arrows and oh-so-informative decals for city centre, airport, etc.
If anyone comes into the city from the south, have a look at the signage just prior of the Okotoks interchange. The sign clearly states that 2 south needs to exit, to get to Okotoks and Dewinton. Of course, should say 2a.
Signage for duplexed highways in this province is sorely lacking.
Sask. does a far superior job in that aspect.

When I moved to Calgary in 2003, I had no problems following the directional signs from SB Deerfoot to EB 22X to SB Highway 2. It was there, trust me. I had no idea about the South end of Calgary when I moved here so it came in handy.

I suppose if you're not looking enough, you might miss it. I see people diving across Deerfoot all the time because they somehow miss the big overhead green signs. These were small ground mounted trail blazers saying "To Highway 2" with an arrow though.

I followed your instructions to look at the Okotoks interchange and I think you meant heading south out of the City, not into the City from the south. The NB signs are ground mounted ones that say 2A Okotoks Next exit. The SB signs look fine too. Check it out.



Are you talking about somewhere else?

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

I'm not entirely sure why Stoney was used for the name of the East Freeway. I think it made more sense when Stoney was the name of the road between Glenmore and the (unnamed) Future East Freeway, Glenmore stayed Glenmore, the portion between Glenmore and 22X was Sarcee, and so on. It could all have been signed as the 201 but, to me at least, these are all separate roads, many of which continue on. It really isn't like the Edmonton Ring Road which is a single road; it is five distinct roads, portions of which form a ring.

Just like Edmonton's Anthony Henday Drive, the Ring Road is being built in multiple pieces but it's all part of the same road. I don't get why you think they're so separate when they're exactly the same as Edmonton. The only portion of any road in the City of Calgary named Stoney Trail before the ring road construction started was the portion from Highway 1 in the NW to Country Hills Blvd. That's because it's part of the eventual ring road. We're not getting existing roads expanded on all sides of the city to make this either. 22X is the only portion like that. Naming them differently is actually more confusing to travelers from outside the city than anything else.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I have to think there will be something guiding people at either end of the Stoney stretch where 22X is now. Common sense is good too. Hey, I'm still traveling East/West, so all is good! Anyway, I believe the intention would be to phase out the 22X moniker eventually (Highway 1 bypass!) so it wouldn't be good to put it on Ring Road signage.


When I moved to Calgary in 2003, I had no problems following the directional signs from SB Deerfoot to EB 22X to SB Highway 2. It was there, trust me. I had no idea about the South end of Calgary when I moved here so it came in handy.

I suppose if you're not looking enough, you might miss it. I see people diving across Deerfoot all the time because they somehow miss the big overhead green signs. These were small ground mounted trail blazers saying "To Highway 2" with an arrow though.

I followed your instructions to look at the Okotoks interchange and I think you meant heading south out of the City, not into the City from the south. The NB signs are ground mounted ones that say 2A Okotoks Next exit. The SB signs look fine too. Check it out.



Are you talking about somewhere else?



Just like Edmonton's Anthony Henday Drive, the Ring Road is being built in multiple pieces but it's all part of the same road. I don't get why you think they're so separate when they're exactly the same as Edmonton. The only portion of any road in the City of Calgary named Stoney Trail before the ring road construction started was the portion from Highway 1 in the NW to Country Hills Blvd. That's because it's part of the eventual ring road. We're not getting existing roads expanded on all sides of the city to make this either. 22X is the only portion like that. Naming them differently is actually more confusing to travelers from outside the city than anything else.

It really isn't like Anthony Henday. The Edmonton Ring Road is a single road that gently curves as it passes around the city. The portion of the Calgary Ring Road that was always listed as Stoney Trail does something similar between between Glenmore and what used to be listed as "Future East Freeway" but the other portions are all straight roads that are quite distinct. 22X definitely isn't the only part of the Ring Road that is an expansion of an existing road; the portion between Glenmore and 22X is an extension of Sarcee and used to be listed as such; the Glenmore portion obviously is an expanded existing road.

[Seadood]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

When I moved to Calgary in 2003, I had no problems following the directional signs from SB Deerfoot to EB 22X to SB Highway 2. It was there, trust me. I had no idea about the South end of Calgary when I moved here so it came in handy.


I followed your instructions to look at the Okotoks interchange and I think you meant heading south out of the City, not into the City from the south. The NB signs are ground mounted ones that say 2A Okotoks Next exit. The SB signs look fine too. Check it out.

anything else.

Perhaps I'm dating myself, but I am referring mid eighties to mid nineties, before there was an extension of Deerfoot. Back then, there was a stop sign at 22X and routes shields indicating 22x east and west. #2 fell off the table, there was no way you knew you had to go west to Macleod.

Did you purposely go out to the Okotoks interchange to check this out? Seems like a long way to go to review.

RE: Okotoks exit:
Yes, referring to northbound PRIOR to interchange.
Look at the actual exit sign, it says 2 south- Okotoks and Dewinton.
Also, isn't Dewinton on a secondary highway? Wouldn't acknowledging that highway be in order?

[Seadood]

I could be wrong on the Dewinton secondary highway.
Google map does not show a route marker.
I seem to recall one a few years ago. Could have changed.

[Seadood]

The signage on the ring road is superlative IMHO. And it appears that there is a standarization of fonts on Alberta highway signs. Is this an application of North American standards?

[Oliver Klozov]

Originally Posted by Seadood

Perhaps I'm dating myself, but I am referring mid eighties to mid nineties, before there was an extension of Deerfoot. Back then, there was a stop sign at 22X and routes shields indicating 22x east and west. #2 fell off the table, there was no way you knew you had to go west to Macleod.

...

That's because that part of Deerfoot was not Hwy 2. Hwy 2 back then was Deerfoot to Anderson to MacLeod. It wasn't until much later when the upgrades to Deerfoot were being done that they switched it over.