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View Poll Results: Most connected to Europe?
NYC 41 46.59%
Toronto 8 9.09%
Chicago 7 7.95%
Montreal 30 34.09%
Other 2 2.27%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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  #201  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2018, 7:25 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I would guess that that a much higher proportion of older white Torontonians are European-born. Canada had a huge post WW2 influx of Europeans.

Anecdotal, but my parents have lots of contacts with Toronto-area Germans, though they're almost all 70+ at this point, living in anonymity in Etobicoke and Scarborough split-levels and condo complexes. Very easy to find older German speakers and social/cultural organizations.

Also, many Toronto-area Germans aren't from Germany, but rather Germanic peoples from Eastern Europe (such as the Carpathians). They identify as Germans, though.
Yeah, Toronto received a lot of Ukrainians, Poles and ethnic Germans from eastern Europe as displaced persons after WWII. A fair number went to US cities like Chicago, Cleveland and Detroit as well, though in smaller numbers. I think NYC mainly recieved mainly Jewish immigrants as displaced persons but few non-Jewish ones.

Toronto and Montreal also received a sizable number of Jewish Holocaust survivors from Poland, Hungary and Romania, many of whom went to North York and Cote St. Luc, respectively.
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  #202  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2018, 7:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Surprising that Toronto's is that high thinking about it. I'd actually think that most people (even many Torontonians) would not guess that one in ten of their citizens is European-born. Many would probably guess that double-digit percentages are born in Asia, but not Europe.

If Toronto is about half white, half non-white, that means one in five white Torontonians is an immigrant, much higher than the rest.

I looked around online a little bit, and couldn't really find any other major North American city with double-digit percentages of people born in Europe. Would be pretty impressive if Toronto was the only one.
And yet Toronto is dead last on the poll.
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  #203  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2018, 7:37 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I think Crawford's got the right explanation for this... these people wouldn't strike you as immigrants. For example, my grandpa, my father, as well as one aunt and one uncle on that side, would all count as foreign-born, despite having lived here for almost 65 years now -- but no one who knows my dad (and aunt, and uncle) would ever think of labeling him (them) "an immigrant". Multiply that situation by a lot, and you're explaining the apparent discrepancy.
What kind of accent does your father have in French?
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  #204  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2018, 8:06 PM
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And yet Toronto is dead last on the poll.
Obviously, because 80 years old Ukrainians who lived their entire adult lives in Canada aren't very "connected to Europe".
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  #205  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2018, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I would guess that that a much higher proportion of older white Torontonians are European-born. Canada had a huge post WW2 influx of Europeans.

Anecdotal, but my parents have lots of contacts with Toronto-area Germans, though they're almost all 70+ at this point, living in anonymity in Etobicoke and Scarborough split-levels and condo complexes. Very easy to find older German speakers and social/cultural organizations.

Also, many Toronto-area Germans aren't from Germany, but rather Germanic peoples from Eastern Europe (such as the Carpathians). They identify as Germans, though.
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I think Crawford's got the right explanation for this... these people wouldn't strike you as immigrants. For example, my grandpa, my father, as well as one aunt and one uncle on that side, would all count as foreign-born, despite having lived here for almost 65 years now -- but no one who knows my dad (and aunt, and uncle) would ever think of labeling him (them) "an immigrant". Multiply that situation by a lot, and you're explaining the apparent discrepancy.
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Yeah, Toronto received a lot of Ukrainians, Poles and ethnic Germans from eastern Europe as displaced persons after WWII. A fair number went to US cities like Chicago, Cleveland and Detroit as well, though in smaller numbers. I think NYC mainly recieved mainly Jewish immigrants as displaced persons but few non-Jewish ones.

Toronto and Montreal also received a sizable number of Jewish Holocaust survivors from Poland, Hungary and Romania, many of whom went to North York and Cote St. Luc, respectively.
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
And yet Toronto is dead last on the poll.
I'm guessing Toronto, out of all these cities proportionally has the most people descended from the post-war wave (1950s, 60s etc.) of European immigration than all the other cities (NYC, Chicago, Montreal all had proportionally more pre-war).
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  #206  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2018, 8:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
What kind of accent does your father have in French?
My father managed to retain a bit of an "international French" accent, actually. However his older sister and his younger brother (my aunt and uncle) speak 100% like Québécois of their generation, so they're even better examples of my point (white, technically foreign-born, indistinguishable from non-immigrants). It's always been a bit of a mystery why my dad retained an accent, even when his sister who was older when they arrived didn't, but my guess, knowing him, is that he never could bring himself to dumb down his speech from proper/written French.

As I was saying though, anyone who knows my father wouldn't consider him an immigrant, though someone who just met him might wonder (based on accent).

When you realize people like him actually count in the stats, it explains the higher numbers.
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  #207  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2018, 8:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
I'm guessing Toronto, out of all these cities proportionally has the most people descended from the post-war wave (1950s, 60s etc.) of European immigration than all the other cities (NYC, Chicago, Montreal all had proportionally more pre-war).
I would agree with this, though NYC received a lot of postwar Italians and German Jews and a decent Irish population.

Washington Heights (Upper Manhattan), even today, has a (very elderly) German Jewish population of intellectuals. Dr. Ruth would be an example. There are still a few German-Jewish businesses around West 181st Street (later waves of Russian Jews kept these stores in business, and they've transitioned to "European" stores).

The remaining Italian enclaves in NYC are full of postwar immigrants, not the earlier waves (who are assimilated in the suburbs, or in assimilated sprawl in NC or FL at this point). Similarly, remaining Irish enclaves, like Woodlawn in the Bronx, are from 1970's and 1980's immigration waves. The older waves have long since assimilated.

Detroit had a fairly large population of postwar Germanic refugees, and they have pretty close ties to the larger community in Toronto. The German organizations often coordinate events and outings, even today.
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  #208  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2018, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The remaining Italian enclaves in NYC are full of postwar immigrants, not the earlier waves (who are assimilated in the suburbs, or in assimilated sprawl in NC or FL at this point). Similarly, remaining Irish enclaves, like Woodlawn in the Bronx, are from 1970's and 1980's immigration waves. The older waves have long since assimilated.
Yeah, it seems unlikely that descendants of the early 20th century immigration wave, who are mostly third, fourth and even fifth generation Americans now, are still living in enclaves anymore. They've moved out and intermarried with white ethnicities.

I suspect that Chicago's "old" Poles don't really live in Polish enclaves on the NW side or adjacent inner suburbs either. They're probably mixed in with other white folks in the collar counties.
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  #209  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 2:11 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Obviously, because 80 years old Ukrainians who lived their entire adult lives in Canada aren't very "connected to Europe".
You really think all of those 618,000 European born people in the Toronto CMA are 80 years old?
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  #210  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 2:30 AM
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Toronto may be more "known" for displaced persons after WWII and the postwar Italian immigration, but it actually has received a lot of more recent European immigration as well. Looking quickly at the stats, the European born is split about 50/50 between those who immigrated before and after 1981.

During the 1980s and 1990s, Toronto received a lot of immigrants from the FSU, former Yugoslavia and Poland.
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  #211  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 2:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Also, many Toronto-area Germans aren't from Germany, but rather Germanic peoples from Eastern Europe (such as the Carpathians). They identify as Germans, though.
I've mentioned my Dad worked in the (US) Navy's rocket/missile program and also in our Washington DC suburb was a cluster of German "immigrants" working at the same lab as my Dad who were from a town called Peenemunde that may sound familiar. I was classmates with one of their sons (name of Wolfgang, aka "Paul" (his middle name)).

A small bit of irony may be attached to this because as someone else mentioned in another thread, our area--Silver Spring, MD--was pretty much the center of middle class suburban Jewry in metro DC.
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  #212  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 2:38 AM
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In the City of Toronto, the major European concentrations include:

Southern and Central Etobicoke (Slavic groups)

Dufferin/Keele St. corridor (Italians and Portuguese)

Bathurst-Sheppard/Steeles area (Jews from the FSU)

Danforth/East York area (Greeks)

In the suburbs, you'll also find some in Vaughan (Italian and Russian) and Mississauga (Polish).
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  #213  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 2:43 AM
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The thing is, pretty much every neighborhood in Toronto that's not a gentrified or old money neighborhood is by and large an immigrant neighborhood.
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  #214  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 3:15 AM
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Originally Posted by wg_flamip View Post
Population born in Europe:

New York
City - 473,372 (5.5%) [source]
MSA - 910,626 (4.5%) [source

Toronto
City - 298,270 (10.9%) [source]
CMA - 617,555 (10.5%) [source]

Montreal
City - 148,260 (8.9%) [source]
CMA - 254,860 (6.3%) source]

Chicago
City - 98,361 (3.6%) [source]
MSA - 359,098 (3.8%) [source]

Note: This is not the only (or even the most important) metric by which European influence should be measured, IMO.
Here are some European-born figures for Australian metro areas (from 2016 census):

Melbourne 461,660 (11%)
Sydney 435,611 (9.6%)
Perth 294,010 (16.2%)
Brisbane 172,709 (8.1%)
Adelaide 165,002 (13.5%)

I doubt there is a city outside Europe with a higher proportion of European immigrants than Perth. Perhaps somewhere in Israel?

Australia had a European immigration boom from the end of WW2 until the mid 1980s. Obviously, a lot of these people are dying off and not being replaced in the same numbers. But the connections to Europe are being maintained in part through the working holiday visa scheme, which lets anyone under 30 from most EU countries live and work in Australia for 2 years. In 2016, 43,000 Brits, 26,000 Germans, 22,000 French, 12,000 Italians, 7,000 Irish, 5,000 Dutch and 5,000 Swedes were granted this visa. At the height of the Irish recession after the financial crisis, more than 20,000 young Irish came to Australia each year. I used to buy my lunch from a cafe that was entirely staffed by Irish girls . I don't think the US has a similar scheme but Canada might?
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  #215  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 3:26 AM
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Isn't the vast majority of Perth's European-born population from Britain?

Australia has a huge number of British-born, with their numbers peaking in the 1991 census I believe (Canada's peaked in 1931 though it has continued to receive British immigrants in good numbers). Even prime ministers Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott were British-born and nobody notices.

In Canada, Brits had very favorable immigration status into the 1970s (they were allowed to vote without obtaining Canadian citizenship for example) and a lot of British immigrants treated Canada as a "colony" and if anything saw their status as "higher" than native-born Canadians.

Sydney and especially Melbourne however have more diverse European immigrant streams.
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  #216  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 3:46 AM
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Isn't the vast majority of Perth's European-born population from Britain?

Australia has a huge number of British-born, with their numbers peaking in the 1991 census I believe (Canada's peaked in 1931 though it has continued to receive British immigrants in good numbers). Even prime ministers Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott were British-born and nobody notices.

In Canada, Brits had very favorable immigration status into the 1970s (they were allowed to vote without obtaining Canadian citizenship for example) and a lot of British immigrants treated Canada as a "colony" and if anything saw their status as "higher" than native-born Canadians.

Sydney and especially Melbourne however have more diverse European immigrant streams.
Yes, Perth has been a favourite destination for the British, who tend to cluster in certain areas the same as other immigrant groups. Some parts of Perth (especially the northern and southern fringes) are dominated by British immigrants. But there are still plenty from other places within Europe.

Tony Abbott was born in Britain to Australian parents, his earliest Australian forebear was actually Dutch. Julia Gillard came to Australia from Wales as a toddler.
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  #217  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 3:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
In the City of Toronto, the major European concentrations include:

Southern and Central Etobicoke (Slavic groups)

Dufferin/Keele St. corridor (Italians and Portuguese)

Bathurst-Sheppard/Steeles area (Jews from the FSU)

Danforth/East York area (Greeks)

In the suburbs, you'll also find some in Vaughan (Italian and Russian) and Mississauga (Polish).
Is the Roncesvalles and Bloor West Village area still Polish and Ukrainian?
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  #218  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 3:55 AM
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Is the Roncesvalles and Bloor West Village area still Polish and Ukrainian?
There's still a bit of an Eastern European presence in the High Park area, though certainly diminished. Roncesvalles feels only slightly more Polish than College St. does Italian these days.
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  #219  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 4:49 AM
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For the Toronto CMA

European immigrants that arrived after 1980 292,010

FSU 71,865
Poland 47,860
UK 29,195
Former Yugoslavia 28,485
Portugal 28,065

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...NAMEE=&VNAMEF=
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  #220  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
You really think all of those 618,000 European born people in the Toronto CMA are 80 years old?
Germans, yeah; they'll be old. Russians, other Slavics and the like, will obviously be from later immigration waves and not necessarily old. The end of Communism obviously led to a burst of immigration to the West.

One interesting thing about Canada is the Portuguese immigration. The U.S. has not received much Portuguese immigration in a really long time.
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