NEW YORK | Port Authority Bus Terminal Replacement

[k1052]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

not that you are wrong, on the contrary, but that's kind of strange considering they were talking about building a tower over it not so long ago. unless that plan was to tear down and rebuild the pabt and then build up the tower over it? i don't recall the details, if it even got that far.

Pretty sure that was prior to full knowledge of the building's structural condition or Vornado simply didn't care because they were going to use a pile of Chinese money to build it.

[mrnyc]

^ no doubt. i can't imagine building something like over a merely renovated crumbly old pabt structure would even be possible, much less wise.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Port Authority’s Fate Uncertain

• Video Link

[C.]

We don't want your bus terminal, N.J. pols tell Port Authority

http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/...epage-featured

Democratic and Republican lawmakers are telling Port Authority officials that a new bus terminal should be built in Manhattan and not next to the rail station in Secaucus, as some authority officials have proposed.

"We are sending a signal to the Port Authority that a united legislative leadership is committed to a one-seat ride for our commuters," said state Senator Robert Gordon, D-Bergen. "We insist on a facility that will provide that and the capacity that will be needed over the next few decades."

At issue is the authority's plan to replace the midtown Manhattan bus terminal, which is aging and overcrowded. While the authority commissioners voted in October to authorize tentative plans to build a new bus terminal one block away from the current structure, some New York commissioners support building the terminal next to the Secaucus Junction train station and have commuters transfer to trains in an effort to reduce traffic at the Lincoln Tunnel and in Manhattan.

...

A bi-partisan group of state lawmakers plans to deliver that message to Port Authority Commissioners at Thursday's Port Authority board meeting and at an April 25 hearing in Hackensack about the bus terminal replacement and the Gateway Tunnel project, which the authority is overseeing.

A Secaucus bus terminal could add 10 to 15 minutes to New Jersey commuters' trips and require them to change between buses and trains at a station that wasn't designed for that purpose, lawmakers said.

"It's a two-seat ride if they put the bus terminal in Secaucus," said state Senator Loretta Weinberg, D-Bergen.

...

Earlier this month, Port Authority chairman John Degnan, an appointee of Gov. Chris Christie, accused vice chairman Scott Rechler, an appointee of New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, of needlessly delaying a design competition for a new bus terminal. Degnan has been invited to testify at the hearing along with NJ Transit interim executive director Dennis Martin. Degnan will testify at the hearing, said a Port Authority spokesman.

Rechler called for a trans-Hudson commuter study before a million dollar design competition could move ahead. He favors building a new bus terminal in New Jersey, to connect with NJ Transit rail lines, and hoped that the study would buttress his arguments for it. The competition for the design of the new bus terminal began on March 11.

...

Building a bus terminal in Secaucus would shift more commuters to an already overburdened Penn Station, where commuters complain about platform crowding that some said borders on being unsafe during rush hours.


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I'm pissed!!! The Port Authority doesn't have $10 billion laying around for a new terminal in Manhattan that can handle the projected capacity. NJ lawmakers just want to clog the streets of Manhattan with NJ transit buses rather than consider rail. Port Authority should just say fine, we'll build on the NY-side and then build in Willets Point or somewhere far less expensive. That will significantly add to everyone's commute and the NJ lawmakers will have only themselves to blame. No fucking vision.

[Busy Bee]

This should surprise no one. These NJ pols are myopic dolts. Show me a NJ commuter who's destination is the PABT and they'd have a point. I would presume the great majority of bus commuters transfer to the subway to complete their journey. How is a NJ bus terminal with a 7 train & NJT rail connection to Manhattan any different? I'm not kidding these idiot "decision makers" just make me sad. It's demoralizing to think they're so willing to spend ten billion dollars without vetting ALL reasonable alternatives. I can't help but think this wouldn't happen anywhere else but here.

[Design-mind]

Are you kidding another survey, and another design competition. This bureaucratic train is going nowhere!

[k1052]

NJ had it's chances to improve commuter access for their citizens into NYC but it chose to, repeatedly, squander them. I don't see why the PA must spend 10B plus to bail them out of their own consistently bad decisions in order to preserve an untenable (and entirely theoretical since many people transfer to NYCT anyway) one seat ride.

[mrnyc]

maybe they would change their tune if a 7 train extension could be absolutely iron clad guaranteed as part of the pabt relocation to secaucus junction?

[chris08876]

I found this interesting.
============================

Sell Real Estate to Fund Tunnel, Port Authority Head Degnan Says

Port Authority of New York and New Jersey Chairman John Degnan said the agency should sell its real-estate holdings to fund critical transportation infrastructure such as a new tunnel under the Hudson River and a replacement for its neglected 66-year-old bus terminal near Times Square.

Failure to build a new $20 billion Hudson River tunnel and fund rail
improvements has “catastrophic potential,” not only for the hundreds of thousands that commute to New York City from New Jersey but also for Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor, Degnan said at Bloomberg’s Future of Transportation Conference in New York City. The only rail links to Manhattan for Amtrak and New Jersey Transit are at capacity, while peak commuter demand is expected to double by 2030, according to the Port Authority.

“The time has long since past for us to be building new buildings,” Degnan said “We ought to sell any real estate we have that isn’t related to the transportation mission and leverage the money we get from that.”

Federal officials and the Governors Chris Christie of New Jersey and Andrew Cuomo of New York have agreed to split the cost of the new tunnel. New Jersey, whose Transportation Trust Fund will run out of money in July, and has a pension fund liability of more than $100 billion, doesn’t have enough money to pay for its share, according to Moody’s Investors Service.

[...]

=================================
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ad-degnan-says

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

This should surprise no one. These NJ pols are myopic dolts. Show me a NJ commuter who's destination is the PABT and they'd have a point. I would presume the great majority of bus commuters transfer to the subway to complete their journey. How is a NJ bus terminal with a 7 train & NJT rail connection to Manhattan any different? I'm not kidding these idiot "decision makers" just make me sad. It's demoralizing to think they're so willing to spend ten billion dollars without vetting ALL reasonable alternatives. I can't help but think this wouldn't happen anywhere else but here.

The 7 train extension idea is a pipe dream that has absolutely no chance of happening and even if it did would cost just as much as the Manhattan bus terminal anyways. Quite frankly putting the train station in Secaucus only makes sense if the Gateway Project is already completed. Otherwise it's impossible to get those people into Manhattan.

[C.]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

The 7 train extension idea is a pipe dream that has absolutely no chance of happening and even if it did would cost just as much as the Manhattan bus terminal anyways. Quite frankly putting the train station in Secaucus only makes sense if the Gateway Project is already completed. Otherwise it's impossible to get those people into Manhattan.

The difference is there is funding in place for the Gateway Project. The Port Authority will be unable to raise the $10 billion for a new Manhattan PABT, so it too is just as much as a pipe dream. The existing PABT occupies prime real estate. The only way this is being financed is if the existing PABT lands are sold off for development with the revenues used to finance a portion of a new New Jersey-based facility.

I suppose the Port Authority commissioners could in theory raise the fares on the Lincoln and Holland tunnels to $20 in order to raise the $10 billion needed for a new Manhattan facility, but they lack the balls to piss off the auto lobby. Therefore, I'm confident a new facility will not be built on the same scale of the existing PABT. The bus terminal at Journal Square and the George Washington Bridge may play a bigger role for Hudson, Bergen and Essex commuters. Some passengers will need to be diverted to rail simply due to capacity issues at the Lincoln and Holland tunnels.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

The 7 train extension idea is a pipe dream that has absolutely no chance of happening and even if it did would cost just as much as the Manhattan bus terminal anyways. Quite frankly putting the train station in Secaucus only makes sense if the Gateway Project is already completed. Otherwise it's impossible to get those people into Manhattan.

It's not going to cost over $10B to extend the 7 to Secaucus. That's East Side Access kind of money. It's all just tunnel and no deep stations.

The extra tunnels to Penn have to be built anyway but once they are anyone arriving to a new bus terminal at Secaucus will have the option of either taking ample NJT/Amtrak services into Penn or getting on the 7 if destined for central or eastern midtown.

The major upside of this plan is that it can be accomplished with zero disruption to existing services and substantially increases capacity when done...which is most certainly not the case with any of the PABT replacement schemes that have the terminal remaining in manhattan.

[drumz0rz]

Unlike the majority sentiment here, I agree with the NJ legislature. A two seat ride in unacceptable. Especially when Secaucus is not designed or prepared to handle that influx of traffic. Maybe, just maybe had Christie not cancelled the gateway tunnel, it would be a consideration, but seeing as how the current hudson river tunnels are already running at capacity in a greatly deteriorating state, adding additional strain is a non-starter. Even putting those whole PABT issue aside for a moment, Amtrak is warning that it may be very likely that in the next few years they may have to take the hudson river tunnels out of service for major rehabilitation which will greatly reduce train throughput (relying on a single tunnel for both east and west traffic) and divert a massive number of commuters to other transportation methods.

Originally Posted by CIA

I'm pissed!!! The Port Authority doesn't have $10 billion laying around for a new terminal in Manhattan that can handle the projected capacity. NJ lawmakers just want to clog the streets of Manhattan with NJ transit buses rather than consider rail. Port Authority should just say fine, we'll build on the NY-side and then build in Willets Point or somewhere far less expensive. That will significantly add to everyone's commute and the NJ lawmakers will have only themselves to blame. No fucking vision.

Bus traffic doesn't clog the streets of NY. Buses have near direct access to the Lincoln tunnel and during rush hour they have their own lane through the tunnel. This argument is invalid. The Port Authority would never consider moving the terminal deeper into NY such as Willets Pt. First of all, it's the Port Authority of New York AND New Jersey. It's a joint agency, not just controlled by NY. The NJ side would never let that happen. Secondly, the vast majority of bus traffic to the PABT is traveling West, and therefore a move into Queens would be detrimental to everyone's ride, not just daily NJ commuters. Finally, while an area like Willets Pt. might be cheaper to develop, have you even begun to consider the traffic situation there? Yeah, let's add a ton of buses to the Cross Bronx, LIE, or BQE... That makes a ton of sense...

Originally Posted by k1052

It's not going to cost over $10B to extend the 7 to Secaucus. That's East Side Access kind of money. It's all just tunnel and no deep stations.

The extra tunnels to Penn have to be built anyway but once they are anyone arriving to a new bus terminal at Secaucus will have the option of either taking ample NJT/Amtrak services into Penn or getting on the 7 if destined for central or eastern midtown.

The major upside of this plan is that it can be accomplished with zero disruption to existing services and substantially increases capacity when done...which is most certainly not the case with any of the PABT replacement schemes that have the terminal remaining in manhattan.

The ESA has cost over $10B, the WTC PATH terminal, $4B, a dozen blocks of 2nd Ave subway $4B, adding a single station to the 7 train cost $2.4B. I promise a 7 train extension to Secaucus will cost at least $10B. The latest estimate on the gateway project is now $23.9B and extending the 7 train requires a lot of the same work.

Also, I agree, the gateway tunnels do need to be built, but again, I think we've missed the boat on doing the work in a non-disruptive manner. Unless we move now and fast, the existing amtrak tunnels are going to need to be refurbished before the gateway tunnels are done.

The issue with keeping the PABT where it is, is purely financial. The issues with moving it anywhere else are as significant as they are numerous.

[mrnyc]

what does a new pabt bus station in nj cost? $5B-ish maybe? half the cost of rebuilding it in manhattan???

[Busy Bee]

Hypothetically, if they would build it at Secaucus, I would hope that kind of money could provide a combined bus and train superstation that would supersede that architectural abortion Frank Lautenberg station. I can't believe how ghastly the design of that POS is. It's an embarrassment.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Just build a New Bus Terminal over the Ramps of the current one and throw in a 10th Avenue station....

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by drumz0rz

Unlike the majority sentiment here, I agree with the NJ legislature. A two seat ride in unacceptable. Especially when Secaucus is not designed or prepared to handle that influx of traffic.

These are long-term decisions. Gateway will be in place before any hypothetical bus terminal in Secaucus.

The latest estimate on the gateway project is now $23.9B and extending the 7 train requires a lot of the same work.

Not really. Extending the 7 train requires very little work in Manhattan, whereas Gateway requires complex track connections to Penn Station and includes a massive expansion of Penn onto supremely valuable Midtown real estate.

The cost of the 7 train extension is hard to nail down because nobody's finalized an exact route or decided if there will be intermediate stations in Hoboken or Jersey City. Underground stations are the most expensive part of a subway, but the 7 extension to Secaucus might have exactly zero new underground stations.

[NYguy]

Once again, I see many of you fail to realize that the city needs the new bus terminal, regardless of whether or not NJ Transit was in the picture. The terminal is more than just a station for NJ Transit. The terminal is need as much as the new "Gateway" tunnels that will keep rail access alive from accross the Hudson (and by extension the rest of the country). Manhattan is large enough to have a bus terminal. It's large enough for both Penn Station and Grand Central (with a little left over for the PATH terminal and Fulton Transit Center). Yeah, I know, a lot of you may not ride or care about the bus service. But there are many, many people who do. And no, you can't reason with me on this one.

Sometimes, there are other interests more important to the city than the value of real estate.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by drumz0rz

The latest estimate on the gateway project is now $23.9B and extending the 7 train requires a lot of the same work.

The scope of a 7 extension and the Gateway program are not even remotely similar, as has been noted above.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by NYguy

Once again, I see many of you fail to realize that the city needs the new bus terminal, regardless of whether or not NJ Transit was in the picture. The terminal is more than just a station for NJ Transit. The terminal is need as much as the new "Gateway" tunnels that will keep rail access alive from accross the Hudson (and by extension the rest of the country). Manhattan is large enough to have a bus terminal. It's large enough for both Penn Station and Grand Central (with a little left over for the PATH terminal and Fulton Transit Center). Yeah, I know, a lot of you may not ride or care about the bus service. But there are many, many people who do. And no, you can't reason with me on this one.

Sometimes, there are other interests more important to the city than the value of real estate.

I don't think space is so much the problem (though a lot of people in that area may feel differently) as cost effectiveness. Spending 10B+ to keep basically the same problem just wrapped in a new package seems extremely short sighted. The agency is no longer in a position to expend this level of resources just to keep the status quo intact.

Also what are these "more important" interests specifically?