Competing with Calgary: A Tale of Two Cities

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I'll say one thing about Vancouverites - a TON of them hang out in the park/beach type areas that surround the downtown core. All week long. Usually just sitting there reading a book, but I guess it counts as "going out". Calgary doesn't have as much of this although the jogging paths down memorial are usually pretty busy most evenings. Calgary also has winter which makes this sort of activity impractical for 2-4 months anyway.

Our winters usually have enough warm days that there are still tons of people biking and running through the numerous parks and trails.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Tarsus

I'm not sure it's much different in Vancouver. Places like Surrey and New West, Richmond etc, are not that much different than the Calgary suburbs.

Most definitely, but when I talk about Vancouver I'm usually only talking about the City of Vancouver.

Originally Posted by freeweed

Edit: actually, I'd suggest that plenty of people in this city are "chained to their children". Far too many young couples are spending every waking hour (outside of work) constantly shuttling their children around to various things. No one seems to be able to just relax and enjoy life anymore; we always have to be "doing something meaningful with our time" - and we happily project this onto our children.

I'm glad that you mentioned this because I can reiterate what I had initially said, which was:

In Calgary we plan for a local lifestyle where people "live to work", while in Vancouver they plan for a local lifestyle where people "work towards living".

I believe that Calgarians and Vancouverites probably have similar lifestyles as they are both North American cities where the live to work lifestyle is very prevalent. What I also believe is that Vancouver (see above definition) has been planned and subsequently developed following the principles found in a work towards living lifestyle and is more conducive to people who live such a lifestyle, while Calgary, for the most part, has not. To provide you with an example, my sister's friend from Finland was recently in Calgary visiting us and she told us about her sister's upcoming housing relocation.

Her sister was living in a typical North American suburban community but as her children were moving out of their toddler stage of life she wanted to move closer to the city in a more compact community where they wouldn't have to drive as much. Her reasoning was that she did not want to have to come home from work and get right back into the car to drive her children around to their increasing amount of non-school activities (i.e. choir, football, hockey, and piano). That is the lifestyle that the majority of our suburban communities have to offer their residents and is the result of the type of planning that we have adopted.

So in short, Calgary has been, and hopefully won't continue to be, planned in such a way that is only conducive to the typical consumer-driven North American live to work lifestyle.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Let's chalk this one up to a difference of opinion over what "living" constitutes, and leave it at that. Most white collar folks (and, for that matter, blue, which can just as easily become workaholics) that I know work a 40 hour week, period.

You may not be aware of what they're doing outside of those hours, but it ain't work.

You might have a good argument that Calgarians are a bit more anti-social than in some cities, as much of this time involves TV/Internet/movies/shopping/personal hobbies - but it certainly isn't work. People working much over 40 hours a week here are by far the exception, except maybe the schlubs in Banker's Hall.

Not clubbing on a Wednesday night != chained to a desk. It's more of a realization that some lifestyles aren't sustainable once you get old or uncool enough. That, and actually making it to work on time every day is important. If that's "chained to my desk", then I'm guilty as charged.

Edit: actually, I'd suggest that plenty of people in this city are "chained to their children". Far too many young couples are spending every waking hour (outside of work) constantly shuttling their children around to various things. No one seems to be able to just relax and enjoy life anymore; we always have to be "doing something meaningful with our time" - and we happily project this onto our children.

You hit the nail on the head with this one. Having 2 youngins of my own I can attest to some of the craziness that I see other parents subjecting themselves (and their kids) to. There seems to be a mentality that if you don't have your kid signed up in 5 different programs of some sort then you are somehow cheating them. I sometimes wonder if we are the only ones who haven't got their kids in 3 different camps over the summer, then hockey, gymnastics, swimming, soccer, basketball, violin etc over the winter. Am I being cruel by having them only in hockey in the winter and then maybe one o2 2 things in the summer? What ever happened to letting kids be kids and letting them have some sun on their own instead of planning every minute of their lives?


I too work a 40 hour week (on paper). Some weeks it's less if we are slow, sometimes it's a lot more if we are busy. When we are busy the work has to be done RIGHT NOW, not tomorrow as it's too late by then so my days can get quite long. There's no compensation for overtime, at least not officially, although I can usually take time off informally at a later date.

In my previous life (in the field) it was 24/7. My personal record was 38 days straight working 24 hours a day with only an hour here and there to grap a quick nap and maybe scarf down something to eat.

[Boris2k7]

On the whole, yes, a well balanced article.

However, I think that the article is a little too slanted towards the "bringing business to Vancouver" issue, and explaining why Calgary has done well. On the urbanism issue, we get to see the reasons on the Calgary end that we might not be doing so well, but we don't get any lessons from Vancouver that could be applied here. That's a major element that is missing in this story.

[Champion3]

Originally Posted by lubicon

You hit the nail on the head with this one. Having 2 youngins of my own I can attest to some of the craziness that I see other parents subjecting themselves (and their kids) to. There seems to be a mentality that if you don't have your kid signed up in 5 different programs of some sort then you are somehow cheating them. I sometimes wonder if we are the only ones who haven't got their kids in 3 different camps over the summer, then hockey, gymnastics, swimming, soccer, basketball, violin etc over the winter. Am I being cruel by having them only in hockey in the winter and then maybe one o2 2 things in the summer? What ever happened to letting kids be kids and letting them have some sun on their own instead of planning every minute of their lives?

You're doing the right thing. I grew up in an environment like that; if I wanted to quit a particular activity, I was expected to find something else to sign up for. For a couple of years I had 3 or 4 extracurricular activities going per week, in addition to school work and a laundry list of chores and activities that I was expected to do. I craved nothing more than to just be able to sit back once in a while and have the freedom to do whatever I wanted.

[Rusty van Reddick]

I'm assuming this was cut and pasted - if so, this (professional) journalist really doesn't know how to spell the word "its"?

[CMD UW]

Originally Posted by wild wild west

I work a 35-hour week, and indeed most others I know work 35-40 hrs./week. I don't go clubbing on week nights because I got the hung-over-at-work thing out of my system in my 20's, and I have a young family. I still find time for camping and hiking, as well as more urban pursuits like going to the gym, movies, going out for dinner, having a drink after work with friends, etc. I don't find my life here all that dramatically different than that of friends and relatives who live in other cities, be they bigger or smaller ones.

I work bet'n 40-45hrs/week, hang out with friends and colleagues for afterwork drinks, which sometimes leads to a 's-l-o-w' morning the next day, hit the gym in the morning a few times during the week, and hang out around town during the weekends...all this at 30-years-old. No time for a wife right now, nevermind kids. The gf is plenty right now.

Oh, and I think the article was good, there are some points that I would context / debate, but overall, it made sense.

[IntotheWest]

Originally Posted by furrycanuck

I'm assuming this was cut and pasted - if so, this (professional) journalist really doesn't know how to spell the word "its"?

I'm glad you point these out Furry...I'm sure I need the reminder myself sometimes on proper grammar. I usually have to think twice about the "its versus it's" issue myself

Good article Riise, thanks for posting. I've heard enough Vancouverites opinions of Calgary to last a lifetime, though I wish the writer did a little more digging before sharing his thoughts with more Vancouverites.

Also - I know this comes up in a lot of threads, but I personally find it tough to separate the "City of Vancouver" from GVRD. I found a lot of their issues (GVRD) were because the cities all acted separately, yet make up 75% of the GVRD population. For example, I find it odd the writer points out the under-equipped C-Train, but makes no mention that a city twice the size only matches the ridership numbers, and number of stations. The City of Vancouver is a great place to live (if you have millions, or like condo towers), but it truly only represents a quarter of the "city" (metro). Surrey, Burnaby, and Richmond are just as bad - if not worse in some cases - than the shape Calgary is currently in (in the urban sense, that is).

As for your comments about the need to change planning/policies, and building "compact communities"...gas prices and the economic gloom in the US has really forced many people to consider giving up the suburban dream south of us, and this has appeared in many articles as of late. The crash of house prices in suburbia, while more "compact" and urban areas are holding their values continues in many US cities. It has also forced developers in some places to re-think how to build better neighbourhoods - I believe there was an article just the other day in the Herald discussing changes in Stapleton, Colorado to re-invent itself to keep and attract new residents. I don't imagine Canadian cities like Calgary will be far behind. Bedroom communities will also be forced to change. Even with cheaper/alternative autos of the future, I think there is a collective shift happening right now in how people want to spend their time/lives. This isn't a Calgary thing or a Vancouver thing. Vancouver is just in some areas (i.e. downtown) more appealing. As is obvious to any forumer on here, Calgary will be closer to that ideal in 5-10 years.

Freeweed - I believe I've heard/read that Calgarians work on average the second longest hours (or longest) in Canada. Actually, I recall the subject being discussed on a talk radio station in a Vancouver cab...Vancouverites worked the least amount (something like 42 hours versus 52 hours a week). Most Vancouverites thought it was simply because it was too cold here 6 or 8 months out of the year, that there is nothing else to do Seriously though, I believe this is available on statscan.ca is it not?

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by IntotheWest

Freeweed - I believe I've heard/read that Calgarians work on average the second longest hours (or longest) in Canada. Actually, I recall the subject being discussed on a talk radio station in a Vancouver cab...Vancouverites worked the least amount (something like 42 hours versus 52 hours a week). Most Vancouverites thought it was simply because it was too cold here 6 or 8 months out of the year, that there is nothing else to do Seriously though, I believe this is available on statscan.ca is it not?

You're absolutely correct, statistically we work longer hours than anyone else in the country. I can't remember the exact numbers but it was within the past 12 months that another of these reports came out. I'm pretty sure the spread between CGY and VAN was nowhere near as drastic, and Montreal in fact had the shortest average work week. I can't find any reference to it either; my google-fu is fading.

If I remember correctly, over the year the average Calgarian works maybe 10-15% more than the average Montrealer. Yes, statistically noticeable. I still contest the assertion that Calgarians are, overall, "chained to our desks". I think it's a ridiculous stereotype. The only way people here are slaves to work is the fact that for the most part, people here wouldn't be caught dead on welfare/UI here. The oldschool work ethic is still strong in this city, even with all the recent arrivals from around the country.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by IntotheWest

I've heard enough Vancouverites opinions of Calgary to last a lifetime

I feel the same way about Calgarians opinions on Edmonton and Winnipeg.

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

I feel the same way about Calgarians opinions on Edmonton and Winnipeg.

Why are you here?

[Danma]

I'm actually in Vancouver on vacation right now, so this is interesting.

I'm not totally sold on the argument that Calgarians are necessarily chained to their desks -- although many are! I think the difference (if we're going to compare) is that the development of desirable public spaces in Calgary is still not nearly as well developed as they are in Vancouver. Some of it has to do with geography (as I'd argue that you can't buy awesomeness like Stanley Park) but in general, apart from Prince's Island, are there any parks or recreational areas anywhere near the core you'd want to go to, just to hang around? In comparison, Vancouver is tripping over itself with parks and great public spaces.

After visiting family in Coquitlam I can verify that living in the suburbs is about the same here as in Calgary. More hills and trees but in essence pretty similar.

As far as the article's concerned, it's nice to see pieces written about Calgary that don't paint us as a bunch of cultureless yodel wallowing in oil.

[Coldrsx]

I think in general Vancouver has a more relaxed lifestyle approach and one that doesnt necessarily focus on the lack of "office" in its area. Vancouver has done very well creating an urban playground for some and a massive retail/tourist draw for others.

My lifestyle in vancouver was not much different than here or if i were to live in any major city.

35-45hrs a week at work
drinks and food a few days a week in the evening
out once a weekend night
strolling around daytime on weekends exploring


I think we all get far too caught up in city vs city because at the end of the day it doesnt matter if you are Kenny or Spenny, you can decide how your lifestyle/city/et al. is and acts.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

I feel the same way about Calgarians opinions on Edmonton and Winnipeg.

Thanks for trolling.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

I think in general Vancouver has a more relaxed lifestyle approach and one that doesnt necessarily focus on the lack of "office" in its area. Vancouver has done very well creating an urban playground for some and a massive retail/tourist draw for others.

My lifestyle in vancouver was not much different than here or if i were to live in any major city.

35-45hrs a week at work
drinks and food a few days a week in the evening
out once a weekend night
strolling around daytime on weekends exploring


I think we all get far too caught up in city vs city because at the end of the day it doesnt matter if you are Kenny or Spenny, you can decide how your lifestyle/city/et al. is and acts.

I think that's pretty accurate.

[bigcanuck]

Originally Posted by freeweed

You're absolutely correct, statistically we work longer hours than anyone else in the country. I can't remember the exact numbers but it was within the past 12 months that another of these reports came out. I'm pretty sure the spread between CGY and VAN was nowhere near as drastic, and Montreal in fact had the shortest average work week. I can't find any reference to it either; my google-fu is fading.

If I remember correctly, over the year the average Calgarian works maybe 10-15% more than the average Montrealer. Yes, statistically noticeable. I still contest the assertion that Calgarians are, overall, "chained to our desks". I think it's a ridiculous stereotype. The only way people here are slaves to work is the fact that for the most part, people here wouldn't be caught dead on welfare/UI here. The oldschool work ethic is still strong in this city, even with all the recent arrivals from around the country.

I would also suggest that a major contributor to the longer hours worked in Calgary vs. Montreal is simply the time zone difference. Calgary's economy is largely influenced by the markets (both commodity and financial) which open at 7:30am Calgary time. This pushes the starting time for many Calgarians to between 6-7:00am. Of course, we could leave at anytime after 2:00pm once the markets are closed but it's not seen in practice - many still remain around until 4-5:00pm (or if you're fortunate/unfortunate enough to be in iBanking, likely 6pm).

Montreal of course will see the markets open at 9:30am - the tendency to remain around past market close for 3-4 hours may not be nearly as prevelant.

[Calgarian]

I would say longer hours in Calgary can be largely attributed to the huge labour shortage.

[CMD UW]

That is also true...staffing shortages and high volume of work = longer hours.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by bigcanuck

I would also suggest that a major contributor to the longer hours worked in Calgary vs. Montreal is simply the time zone difference. Calgary's economy is largely influenced by the markets (both commodity and financial) which open at 7:30am Calgary time. This pushes the starting time for many Calgarians to between 6-7:00am. Of course, we could leave at anytime after 2:00pm once the markets are closed but it's not seen in practice - many still remain around until 4-5:00pm (or if you're fortunate/unfortunate enough to be in iBanking, likely 6pm).

That's a very good point. Folks I know in some other cities are astounded that I get to work before 7:30 - which when you add in a 'burbs commute, means I leave the house not much past 6:30. They naturally assume I work until 5, so they figure I have this insanely long working day. Of course, I typically leave around 4, so it averages out. I know hardly anyone who works "9-5" in Calgary, but many who work 7-4, or 6-3 (or heck, 10-7).

The other thing I've noticed is that Calgary (at least downtown and most other office type jobs) is a 9 hour workday - no exceptions. 8 hours work with an hour unpaid lunch. Many other cities are more typically an 8 hour day, including lunch, so our workday seems longer. Obviously not every place and person fits this pattern but it's a definite trend.

Those 2 factors alone give a perception that Calgarians work a lot more. Most people I know in (for example) Winnipeg don't even leave their houses before 8am, so they figure I must be working like crazy.

Calgary is also still seen as a small city (like the Winnipegs and Reginas and Hamiltons) but our commutes are rapidly approaching Toronto times - this just makes the day seem that much longer for people who still think of Calgary as a "small city". In my life I've always had a 30-45 minute commute to school or work, so it seems the same to me - but many friends (including the SO) have taken quite a long time to adjust. Waking up at 5am? Blasphemy!

[240glt]

I'd wager though that Vanocuverites in general have longer commutes... When I lived in Van, my 10k drive took me 40 minutes on a good day. In Calgary, my drive from DT to right around blackfoot & 58th took me less than 15. My commute in Edmonton takes me less than 15 as well.

I know Vancouverites that drive over an hour each way for work.. either from up the valley or White Rock into the city. Traffic in Cal is bad no doubt, but it's still much easier to get aorund than Van.

Funny, I was on the seawall & down Robson st from 11-2 yesterday & the people out jogging & shopping & coffee shop sitting made it hard to believe that anyone was working!