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  #381  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2012, 9:41 PM
MrSlippery519 MrSlippery519 is offline
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Not that it's relevant at this point but I really wonder of those 465 employee's how many of them without the Union's influence would have accepted the lower wage and continued working? No one would speak out against the Union as they would risk a huge backlash but i am really curious.

I think it's pretty clear the Union talked up a great game and made these workers feel like they were actually worth what they were getting paid...granted the skilled engineers, etc were worth it and their new wage reflected their skills.

At the end of the day this is yet another blow to the CAW, in time more and more of this is going to happen as they quietly go away. The vast majority of companies today have no use for Union's nor do the employee's want them. Union's had their time and place in the past and they really did good things however now they just get in the way and cost everyone more money and grief.
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  #382  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2012, 9:54 PM
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That union mentality has hurt Windsor so much, I hope London does what it can to stop them from doing the same to them. We're finally smartening up in Windsor by not letting the unions run the show like they used to. People here are sick and tired of all their rhetoric and entitlement, which gives us hope that Windsor will finally be the well rounded city it should be.
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  #383  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2012, 4:35 AM
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Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02 View Post
Did the CAW even try to negotiate with CAT? I seen the final offer from CAT/EMD, but never seen a counter-offer.
As I recall, it played out as follows:

- CAT/EMD requested $15.50/hour minimum.
- CAW said "no", we're not here to negotiate, we want the status quo.
- CAT/EMD upped the offer to $16.50/hour minimum.
- CAW said "no", we're not here to negotiate, we want the status quo.

At least CAT tried to negotiate. CAW's attitude is what killed the negotiations.


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Originally Posted by Wharn View Post
This is extremely bad. I would not be surprised if this causes well over 1000 additional job losses to Electro-Motive's suppliers. On the plus side, Syncrude is hiring...
The number I've heard is 1,700. And that doesn't even count the impact on the local economy.

Last edited by manny_santos; Feb 4, 2012 at 7:16 AM.
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  #384  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2012, 8:28 AM
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No one can absorb a 50% pay cut...........mortages, rents, groceries, utilities, are all paid and calculated according to your income.
People may have gotten a mortgage based on their estimated income and halfing that means bankruptsy.
Who in hell would accept a 50% pay cut when they would make 60% of their wage on EI?
Also you are forgetting the most basic idea behind the outrageous 50% cut..........Caterpillar was going to be closing the plant regardless. The company always had the intention of closing the plant but by trying to get the employees to accept a 50% wage cut and THEN close the plant their severance would have been based on their previous earnings. In otherwords Caterpillar was just trying to reduce their severance pay by 50%. I think the union knew damn fine that the plant would be closing for good but realized that by accepting the 50% pay cut it would dramatically reduce their severance AND the amount of EI they would get as it to is based on your previous earnings.
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  #385  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2012, 1:32 PM
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From the Windsor Star
http://www.windsorstar.com/business/...655/story.html

Quote:
Nelson Sarty was still on the Electro-Motive picket line after the plant announced it would shut down Friday, thinking about the job his family had built plans for the future around.

“It’s a great place to work. I love working here. It’s an exciting thing, to build a locomotive,” said the 34-year-old from Windsor.

“You’ve got to be optimistic that they’re going to see the fact it’s a good workforce here and we build the best product in the world and they’ll want to keep it open. But, obviously, that’s not the case.”

Sarty moved to London from Texas eight months ago to take the job, planning for his wife to join him with his children after she finished her nursing degree.

Those plans were placed in jeopardy when parent company Caterpillar locked workers out a month ago after the CAW rejected a final bargaining offer that would have cut wages in half, then dashed with the announcement the plant would close.

Electro-Motive declined an interview request, but issued a statement blaming the union for the shutdown.

“The collective agreement and cost structure of the London operation did not position EMC to be flexible and cost competitive in the global marketplace, placing the plant at a competitive disadvantage. While the company’s final offer addressed those competitive disadvantages, the gulf between the company and the union was too wide to resolve and as such, market conditions dictate that the company take this step,” the statement read.

The 450 hourly workers who lost their jobs plan to stay on the picket line until they’ve reached a closure agreement with Caterpillar, with meetings scheduled for early next week.

Sarty said he’ll probably move back to Windsor to look for work and will be watching developments with the company closely.

“It’ll be interesting to see where they go, going forward, because I don’t know where they’re going to build these things.”

The answer appears to be a Caterpillar-owned Progress Rail plant in Muncie, Ind., with hundreds of jobs also on the way at a Caterpillar plant in Clayton, N.C., after a $33-million investment from the company.

On Wednesday, Indiana passed a “right to work” provision making it illegal to require non-union members to pay dues, even if they’re benefiting from collective bargaining benefits.

The Progress Rail plant in Muncie is set to start a hiring blitz within days, according to reports. Calls to the human resources department at the Muncie plant were not returned.

Charlotte Yates, a labour studies professor at McMaster University, said the federal government has itself to blame for the loss of jobs to the U.S. She said the job flight south is the direct result of U.S. President Barack Obama’s Buy American policy, which requires companies to use domestically manufactured goods if they want to secure government contracts.

“In this case, it has nothing to do with the market. It has to do with other governments in other countries playing a very active, interventionist role in the market in order to make sure their manufacturing capacity is maintained in their own country. And so we are immediately putting ourselves at a competitive disadvantage,” she said.

Yates said she doubts Caterpillar’s 50 per cent wage cut offer was ever serious and she suspects events unfolded exactly according to the company’s plan.

“Their bargaining strategy was meant to allow them to blame workers for the closure, instead of company strategy.”

People in London remember Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s appearance at the Electro-Motive plant in 2008, when he was photographed waving out the window of a train and walked the plant floor talking up his government’s $1 billion in tax breaks for industry, including $5 million in breaks for Electro-Motive.

At the time, the plant was owned by Berkshire Partners LLC and Greenbriar Equity Group LLC, with Caterpillar purchasing it in 2010.

CAW president Ken Lewenza also slammed the federal and provincial governments for failing to enforce collective bargaining rules and keep the plant open. He proposed the federal government slap a tariff on all Caterpillar goods and funnel the tax proceeds back into communities suffering from high unemployment from closed workplaces to make up for it.

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty has criticized Caterpillar’s actions during the lockout.

On Friday, Ontario Minister of Finance and Windsor-Tecumseh MPP Dwight Duncan weighed in, slamming Caterpillar for shuttering the plant and praising the union.

“The company has behaved horrendously. I can’t think of a worse example. I applaud the CAW, union leadership and working people there who tried desperately to talk,” he said. “I recognize companies have to make difficult choices and we are in a global environment, but the best way to deal with challenges is to work together. I watched the CAW with GM and Chrysler make concession after concession, but there was no chance with these birds. This company was completely irresponsible.”

Lewenza said the CAW’s legal team plans to ask Ontario’s labour minister to open an inquiry into whether Caterpillar’s actions broke any laws. He said Caterpillar representatives admitted their final offer to the union was unprecedented in international collective bargaining.

“I asked Caterpillar if they ever presented a proposal to any union, globally, like they presented to us, or if they’ve ever heard of any company, globally, that’s presented such a proposal. And their answer was ‘No.’”

Yates said the closure was yet another example of the decline of manufacturing in Canada, but said the situation is so unique, it’s hard to read much into what it means for labour and collective bargaining.

“Ultimately, this isn’t about collective bargaining, because Caterpillar never did bargain. They were never interested in bargaining,” she said.
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  #386  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2012, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Also you are forgetting the most basic idea behind the outrageous 50% cut..........Caterpillar was going to be closing the plant regardless. The company always had the intention of closing the plant but by trying to get the employees to accept a 50% wage cut and THEN close the plant their severance would have been based on their previous earnings. In otherwords Caterpillar was just trying to reduce their severance pay by 50%. I think the union knew damn fine that the plant would be closing for good but realized that by accepting the 50% pay cut it would dramatically reduce their severance AND the amount of EI they would get as it to is based on your previous earnings.
What is your source?

Last edited by manny_santos; Feb 5, 2012 at 4:18 AM.
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  #387  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2012, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by haljackey View Post
It's a free market. Sometimes I wonder if unions realize that this is a capitalist society. Regretting nothing? This was a massive failure on their part, and now you're unwilling to regret it? Give me a break.
I read another quote by the same idiot, can't find it now but it said something to the effect that this was a "victory" because it "taught companies they can't bully union members into submission". I just about vomited when I read that. Victory?!? You're all out of a goddamn job! Face it, the company won hands down!

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Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
It would be nice if the provincial or federal government would move some government jobs to southwestern Ontario. But no, everything has to stay in either Toronto or Ottawa.
Ottawa is more or less dependent on the government, but I've always argued in favour of moving Provincial ministries out of Toronto to help with crowding issues. However, I think Northern cities like Sudbury are far more deserving of those jobs because of their geographic disadvantage. London's problem is a Union and attitude problem, not a geographic one.

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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
The number I've heard is 1,700. And that doesn't even count the impact on the local economy.
Jesus Christ.

I hope some of the skilled workers at the London plant can at least get transferred to Muncie, kind of what like Ford did with its St. Thomas assembly workers.
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  #388  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2012, 12:39 AM
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Ottawa is more or less dependent on the government, but I've always argued in favour of moving Provincial ministries out of Toronto to help with crowding issues. However, I think Northern cities like Sudbury are far more deserving of those jobs because of their geographic disadvantage. London's problem is a Union and attitude problem, not a geographic one.
I'm sympathetic to the north but southwestern Ontario is geographically disadvantaged as well (especially from London westward). Basically any area outside of the influence of the GTA and Ottawa area could be considered a have-not region relative to those two regions.
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  #389  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2012, 4:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Wharn View Post
I read another quote by the same idiot, can't find it now but it said something to the effect that this was a "victory" because it "taught companies they can't bully union members into submission". I just about vomited when I read that. Victory?!? You're all out of a goddamn job! Face it, the company won hands down!
It's a temporary victory for the union bosses, who can continue to collect their salary. The bigger victories are for Caterpillar and its shareholders, and for the people of Muncie, Indiana.


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Originally Posted by Wharn View Post
I hope some of the skilled workers at the London plant can at least get transferred to Muncie, kind of what like Ford did with its St. Thomas assembly workers.
I don't think most of the unionized workers would be caught dead going to the United States to work. They would be considered traitors to the Canadian working class.

There would also be the issue of the unskilled workers being legally allowed to work in the United States. With the unemployment rate in Muncie, I highly doubt Progress Rail could hire unskilled Canadian workers over American workers. The skilled workers would be another story, if there are not enough local people with the same qualifications.
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  #390  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2012, 9:09 AM
DB_in_Cbus DB_in_Cbus is offline
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This thread really, truly almost makes me weep. Poor Caterpillar! Being screwed by those greedy workers down in London. Swallowing ANY sort of pay cut is a bitter pill, and I really hope those arguing that the workers should have gladly bent over for the company do not find themselves in a similar position.

Caterpillar was clearly going to close the plant anyway - the sham that they were "negotiating" was disingenuous to say the least. I admire the workers for at least going down swinging and would remind some of the posters on this thread that you could very well be next.
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  #391  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2012, 1:31 PM
MrSlippery519 MrSlippery519 is offline
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
No one can absorb a 50% pay cut...........mortages, rents, groceries, utilities, are all paid and calculated according to your income.
People may have gotten a mortgage based on their estimated income and halfing that means bankruptsy.
Who in hell would accept a 50% pay cut when they would make 60% of their wage on EI?
Also you are forgetting the most basic idea behind the outrageous 50% cut..........Caterpillar was going to be closing the plant regardless. The company always had the intention of closing the plant but by trying to get the employees to accept a 50% wage cut and THEN close the plant their severance would have been based on their previous earnings. In otherwords Caterpillar was just trying to reduce their severance pay by 50%. I think the union knew damn fine that the plant would be closing for good but realized that by accepting the 50% pay cut it would dramatically reduce their severance AND the amount of EI they would get as it to is based on your previous earnings.
You are aware its not a smart choice to get a mortgage at the peak of what your income is right? Most banks while may give you the money would never recommend you live pay check to pay check. I am sure most of these employees have another person in the household making money. I can tell you if tomorrow I was offered a 50% pay cut my wife and I could get by. We have a very nice house however we live within our means and while we would need to make some cuts it would be no problem making it work.

EI will run out and the majority of these people who where making way more than they deserved may never end up making 16+ and hour. People in London would be lined up to make 16/h sweeping the floor, or cleaning parts. I am not suggesting that the employees should have simply accepted the offer however knowing that chances are CAT would simply close the plant I bet they could have agreed upon a hourly rate in the 17.50-18.00 range which is not a bad yearly income for many people. We also have no idea if they were going to close the plant or not, what we do know is that the London plant was not making boatloads of money so wages did need to be cut (what amount who knows)
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  #392  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2012, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
I'm sympathetic to the north but southwestern Ontario is geographically disadvantaged as well (especially from London westward). Basically any area outside of the influence of the GTA and Ottawa area could be considered a have-not region relative to those two regions.
Northern cities are way more volatile than Southern ones because they're exclusively based on a very narrow range of industries, and geography makes it difficult to diversify. Sudbury is basically built on a rock, which hinders spatial management, and Thunder Bay is so far from anywhere important that it is extremely difficult to set up a profitable operation there.

Resource-based cities like Sudbury also have to suffer from commodity volatility. If the price of the main commodity tanks, the entire city goes with it. Kirkland Lake is an extremely depressing example of this, and Sudbury used to have major issues with tax revenue in the 1930s and the 1970s. While I am sympathetic to the unemployed here in London, Northern Ontario needs the stabilizing effect of government more than we do.

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Originally Posted by DB_in_Cbus View Post
This thread really, truly almost makes me weep. Poor Caterpillar! Being screwed by those greedy workers down in London. Swallowing ANY sort of pay cut is a bitter pill, and I really hope those arguing that the workers should have gladly bent over for the company do not find themselves in a similar position.

Caterpillar was clearly going to close the plant anyway - the sham that they were "negotiating" was disingenuous to say the least. I admire the workers for at least going down swinging and would remind some of the posters on this thread that you could very well be next.
Beggars can't be choosers. When you're lobbying to be paid $30 an hour to sweep floors in a city with an unemployment rate of 9%, where hundreds of people would happily work for $16.50 an hour, you're not going to be garnering a whole lot of goodwill. And as manny already pointed out, Caterpillar offered to negotiate and the CAW told them to fuck off. While I'm certain that they were being pressured by the American government to move production to Muncie, what the hell is a company supposed to do when a union gets all standoffish like that? Bend over and take it?

Last edited by Wharn; Feb 6, 2012 at 3:51 AM.
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  #393  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2012, 4:13 AM
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Originally Posted by DB_in_Cbus View Post
This thread really, truly almost makes me weep. Poor Caterpillar! Being screwed by those greedy workers down in London. Swallowing ANY sort of pay cut is a bitter pill, and I really hope those arguing that the workers should have gladly bent over for the company do not find themselves in a similar position.
This may come as a shock, but I KNOW unemployment and what it's like to take a massive pay cut. I lost my job in September and was unemployed for four months; I had my pay reduced to nothing in a snap. My father went through four years of unemployment a few years back. My cousin, who just lost his job at Electromotive, was unemployed for several years before being hired there. My family has been through very tough financial times. But instead of blaming others, I do what I can do to improve my employment prospects. Instead of complaining about my former employer in Aylmer and condemning the management in the press, I just quietly moved on and looked for another job. It took me four months to find the right one, but now I have one. I was grateful to have been employed after I graduated from Fanshawe until I was laid off, and I'm grateful to be employed again. And guess what? I have no ill feelings towards my former employer. I'd gladly work for them again if I got the opportunity. Likewise, while his co-workers were picketing and complaining about Caterpillar, my cousin was hitting the pavement looking for another job.

You are entitled to your opinion, but to suggest that I have no understanding of what it's like to take a pay cut makes me weep too.

The problem in some parts of the unionized world is that the glass is always half-empty, no matter how full it is. Except for my cousin, who although he wouldn't have said it outside the family, he was willing to take the pay cut to keep his job, because he knows what unemployment is like all too well. He never stated his feelings about the CAW explicitly, but in the days leading up to the lockout I got the sense he was not impressed with the CAW was conducting itself.

I do not completely condemn unions. One of own SSP members is a union member and his union is committed to upholding academic freedoms, not just sucking money out of an unprofitable employer (in this case EMD was bleeding $16 million/year) for the employees' own exclusive benefit - that I have admiration for. And, there are some companies even today where unions are needed to protect employees from toxic managers - I've worked for companies with toxic management and poor working conditions, thankfully not for a very long time now. However, I have heard far more stories about union organizers slashing managers' car tires, accepting large bribes, or even using physical violence against managers, that most unions make my stomach churn. Some of the most corrupt unions are in Quebec.

Last edited by manny_santos; Feb 6, 2012 at 7:10 PM.
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  #394  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2012, 3:32 AM
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More de-industrialization is probably coming our way. According to the Globe and Mail, sales of small cars built in Mexico are surging, while the full-sized sedans made in Canada are being punished by onerous fuel economy regulations. Apparently, Ontario is also now one of the costliest places on the planet to build cars:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ontent=2328777

Though Canada likely suffers from the Dutch Disease, an argument can also be made against McGuinty's Green Energy policy, which is no doubt a liability to manufacturing operations. High dollar, a 46% electricity price increase over the next five years and an Ontario Government deficit that's likely to continue into the 2030s. We're all fucked.

Too bad we can't create an ad campaign to counter this. "Remember the Ford Escort? Do you really want made-in-Mexico?"
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  #395  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2012, 8:04 PM
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More de-industrialization is probably coming our way. According to the Globe and Mail, sales of small cars built in Mexico are surging, while the full-sized sedans made in Canada are being punished by onerous fuel economy regulations. Apparently, Ontario is also now one of the costliest places on the planet to build cars:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ontent=2328777

Though Canada likely suffers from the Dutch Disease, an argument can also be made against McGuinty's Green Energy policy, which is no doubt a liability to manufacturing operations. High dollar, a 46% electricity price increase over the next five years and an Ontario Government deficit that's likely to continue into the 2030s. We're all fucked.

Too bad we can't create an ad campaign to counter this. "Remember the Ford Escort? Do you really want made-in-Mexico?"
One of the primary reasons Mexico has become so attractive to foreign investment is the under-valuation of the Peso. Since that country's economic crisis of 1994, the value of the Peso against the American dollar has dropped from about 25 cents/peso to 7.9 cents, and it has generally been dropping every year. Put simply, a 70 peso/hour job in 1994 was worth $17.50 USD back then, and today is worth $5.52/hour USD. It's the same reason the cost of doing business in Canada has gone up so much in the past 15 years. It's all connected to supply and demand of the U.S. dollar. We can't control that.

There are things we can control, but Canada and Ontario have not taken sufficient steps to make ourselves competitive in the global market.

The new economic reality, which was probably considered unthinkable 25 years ago, is that Mexico's economy is bigger than Canada's (although GDP per capita is still lower, because of the size of the population), and Mexico has a rapidly-expanding middle class that has more purchasing power than ever before. Some economists predict they will have the world's 5th-largest economy by 2040.

There is no doubt in my mind that their government's provision of free post-secondary education has played a very large role in helping Mexico surge ahead economically; young people can afford to spend money on cars and houses rather than be drowning in student debt. Parents aren't forced to finance part of their childrens' education, and they can retire at an earlier age, opening up more job opportunities for the young. More spending power, more demand, a better economy. An economic spinoff from this is that post-secondary students do not have to work part-time and summer jobs, leaving open numerous job opportunities in the rest of the economy. It is unheard of in Mexico for university students to work while they're in school. Imagine how many unemployed Londoners could be employed if all the Western and Fanshawe students weren't forced to work to finance their education. (I was once one of those students, and yes, I recognized back then that my presence where I worked meant that someone in London feeding a family was jobless.)

Some Mexicans I've spoken with, especially those who have not studied economics, are largely unaware of the new North American order. Many do not understand how much Canada's economy has suffered in recent years, and how many jobs have moved from Canada to their country. Just as many are shocked when they learn how much post-secondary education costs in Canada, and how much debt graduating students are in. Some do understand, however; improved economic prospects in Mexico have been cited as one of the major reasons why attempted illegal immigration to the United States has decreased in recent years.

So Canada, what are you going to do to compete with Mexico, Brazil, and China?

Last edited by manny_santos; Feb 7, 2012 at 8:30 PM.
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  #396  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2012, 9:44 PM
MrSlippery519 MrSlippery519 is offline
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
So Canada, what are you going to do to compete with Mexico, Brazil, and China?
Step one would be to get rid of unions who drive hourly wages up making us noncompetitive. Or somehow work on restructuring how they function in todays market place.
Step 2 we need to under value our dollar as that is currently putting a huge strain on the Canadian manufacturing capabilities. Our dollar should be 20-25% below the US dollar so that US companies perceive an advantage to doing business here.
Step 3 in my opinion lies on the government, they need different tax breaks and incentives to bring in and keep current manufacturing. Raising electricity, having a strong dollar and Unions is only going to keep companies looking else ware for their needs.
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  #397  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2012, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MrSlippery519 View Post
Step one would be to get rid of unions who drive hourly wages up making us noncompetitive. Or somehow work on restructuring how they function in todays market place.
Step 2 we need to under value our dollar as that is currently putting a huge strain on the Canadian manufacturing capabilities. Our dollar should be 20-25% below the US dollar so that US companies perceive an advantage to doing business here.
Step 3 in my opinion lies on the government, they need different tax breaks and incentives to bring in and keep current manufacturing. Raising electricity, having a strong dollar and Unions is only going to keep companies looking else ware for their needs.
I think restructuring is a much more viable solution...even I would be against outlawing unions, and it would be political suicide. A better solution would be to enact right-to-work legislation, which several U.S. states (including Indiana) have enacted to make themselves more competitive in the global marketplace. It's a win-win situation for employees: they get all the benefits of unionization, but they are not forced to be union members.

I am not a fan of fixing exchange rates, as they artificially over-value or under-value currency. Argentina learned this the hard way over 10 years ago.

It is all going to come down to government intervention. Their interventions need to be ones that companies can look at in a positive light, not ones that are threatening as that could make companies too worried about the risk of investing in Canada. By "threatening", I mean policies such as multi-million dollar penalties for leaving Canada. One could argue that it would reduce foreign takeovers, but that to me is encouraging the protectionism that leads to poor efficiency and high prices for consumers. Just look at our mobile phone provider industry.
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  #398  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2012, 4:15 PM
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Census population results: London is no longer one of Canada's 10 largest metropolitan areas: http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...=3&O=D&RPP=150

In my opinion, London doesn't have a metro anyway... There's a city and farms around it.

Will this have an effect on the economy? You bet it will. Being out of the top 10, I don't see as many companies becoming attracted to the city.
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  #399  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2012, 6:46 PM
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I understand that people are frustrated about the plant closure but what a lot of people are suggesting just doesn't make sense.

Outlawing unions is ridiculous and impractical, creating penalties on businesses that close plants in Canada means they will never open them in the first place, and complaining about electricity prices means people think the artificially low rates of the past were realistic in the first place.

"Will this have an effect on the economy? You bet it will. Being out of the top 10, I don't see as many companies becoming attracted to the city."
Viewing this statement as fact which is the way it is presented means you believe businesses operate on emotion and not practical things like geography, access transportation, and the straight up dollars and cents of a potential operation.
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  #400  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2012, 6:51 PM
MrSlippery519 MrSlippery519 is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highinthesky View Post
I understand that people are frustrated about the plant closure but what a lot of people are suggesting just doesn't make sense.

Outlawing unions is ridiculous and impractical, creating penalties on businesses that close plants in Canada means they will never open them in the first place, and complaining about electricity prices means people think the artificially low rates of the past were realistic in the first place.
I think what CAT did was what most profitable business' would do in the same situation. The London plant was not making the money they needed to make and many employee's were over paid.

I agree outlawing unions all together is not a viable solution...that said the current structure of how unions operate is a joke and is only hurting the Canadian economy. I truly believe that unions can still work, as manny suggested above many states have now modified how the unions exist with some companies and that seems to have benefited all parties involved.
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