HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > London > London Issues, Business, Politics & the Economy


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #621  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 2:52 PM
north 42's Avatar
north 42 north 42 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Windsor, Ontario/Colchester, Ontario
Posts: 5,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snark View Post
A politician defending his actions? Absolutely I'm going to believe everything he says and the spin that he puts on it!

The article strongly implies that one need only to have the balls to pick up the magic wand and wave it to freeze or reduce revenues and continue with business as usual. It is incorrect as well as disingenuous: much of the infrastructure work talked about in the article is/was not paid with property tax revenue. To say the the mayor (which is once again wrong, it's council directing staff) increased infrastructure work while freezing taxes is blatantly misleading. It does however follow Sun Media's conservative political mantra that all government is greedy/inefficient/lazy/evil and that shining white knight heroes can and do save the day. Remember Sun's Media's earlier white knight mayor of another Ontario city who was going to get his city "off of the gravy train"? I'm not saying that Windsor's mayor is like that guy, but the editorial bent of the publisher remains the same.

The reality is that in order to do what Windsor has done is one of two things:

1) Reduce service or increase risk. Some efficiencies can be found to save costs, but eventually those run out and still the cost of running the city continues to increase due to inflation. If revenues remain static, the only actions remaining at that point is to reduce service levels for soft services and/or increase risk of failure of hard services. If the community is fine with reduced services for lower taxes, then that's okay. I would suggest however that the community is rarely, if ever, consulted prior to such a decision being made by their local council.

2) Contract out the jobs of city staff to private companies, and eliminate those positions internally. There are times where contracting out makes sense for a municipality, such as activities where there is fixed duration (such as a project) or where the workload fluctuates a great deal. In such cases it doesn't make sense to hire full-time internal staff for such things.

Simply replacing justifiable internal F.T.E.'s with a private company filling those positions however results in many cases with those municipal jobs converting to private low paying, no benefits McJobs that don't support a middle class household. Now the municipality is contributing to a lower standard of living in the community. Additionally, instead of cycling tax revenue back into the local economy through internal staff salaries, profit is instead skimmed off by the contract company owners and that money bleeds out of the local economy and goes elsewhere - quite possibly right out of the country. It supports the notion that everyone should be working for less pay so that I can pay lower taxes. Why do I need lower taxes? Because I don't get paid enough.....
You sound like you belong on London city council! You also have no idea what you are talking about, Windsor was able to get the most infrastructure money from the government because it had the money to match it. Ten years of hard work, led by our mayor has allowed the city to do what was previously impossible. You can say it isn't so, but it is true, and possible.
And according to you, a city should pay way more for services to prop up the economy, fuck the taxpayers. This is why London is in trouble, views like yours is what destroyed Detroit. You deserve your mayor and council!
__________________
Windsor Ontario, Canada's southern most city!

Last edited by north 42; Jan 19, 2014 at 3:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #622  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 4:16 PM
Snark Snark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by north 42 View Post
You sound like you belong on London city council! You also have no idea what you are talking about, Windsor was able to get the most infrastructure money from the government because it had the money to match it. Ten years of hard work, led by our mayor has allowed the city to do what was previously impossible. You can say it isn't so, but it is true, and possible.
And according to you, a city should pay way more for services to prop up the economy, fuck the taxpayers. This is why London is in trouble, views like yours is what destroyed Detroit. You deserve your mayor and council!
I was only partially referring to ISF funding in terms of non-tax funding for infrastructure renewal. The fact that you missed the other major non-tax funding sources I was referring to (that have a much larger impact on residents), and other comments in your response, would suggest that your understanding of these matters may be limited, not mine.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match here in an internet chat BB. I'll just venture to say I might have some idea as to what I'm talking about, as infrastructure capital planning, budgeting, and sustainability is my profession, I am a decision maker in it, going on 30 years professional experience, and am currently on the board of directors of 2 utilities.

How about you?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #623  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 4:27 PM
haljackey's Avatar
haljackey haljackey is offline
User Registered
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 3,194
This isn't an apples to oranges comparison. If only it was that simple.

Everyone has their own ideas how to change things for the better. We need to weigh each and look at the pros and cons they have and ultimately come to a decision that best reflects what needs to be done and how to do it.
__________________
My Twitter

My Simcity Stuff
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #624  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 5:59 PM
north 42's Avatar
north 42 north 42 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Windsor, Ontario/Colchester, Ontario
Posts: 5,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snark View Post
I was only partially referring to ISF funding in terms of non-tax funding for infrastructure renewal. The fact that you missed the other major non-tax funding sources I was referring to (that have a much larger impact on residents), and other comments in your response, would suggest that your understanding of these matters may be limited, not mine.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match here in an internet chat BB. I'll just venture to say I might have some idea as to what I'm talking about, as infrastructure capital planning, budgeting, and sustainability is my profession, I am a decision maker in it, going on 30 years professional experience, and am currently on the board of directors of 2 utilities.

How about you?
Good for you!

All I know is that since our mayor has been in power, and because of all his changes to the way Windsor is run, we have never been in better shape financially, have never had better infrastructure, have never had so many beautification efforts throughout the city, and have never been in a better to look to the future. All this while going through the worst downturn since the Great Depression, where we were written off as the next Flint Michigan.
So how is this wrong in your eyes? And how is London fairing with tax increases which you feel are needed? It's in the worst condition in its history! Go figure!
And you think it's funny that our mayor decided to defend his record when a politician from London tries to misrepresent the facts to justify their own inability to be efficient and use taxes wisely?
__________________
Windsor Ontario, Canada's southern most city!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #625  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 6:26 PM
haljackey's Avatar
haljackey haljackey is offline
User Registered
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 3,194
Just because one city pulls it off does not mean another can using the same strategy.

London and Windsor are similar in many ways but also different. For one thing London is larger. Also Windsor does get more tourism from visiting Americans and I'm sure the casino there helps the city's coffers out a good deal too.

I'm not saying Windsor's strategy is impossible for London, but there would be different challenges and it may not be as effective.
__________________
My Twitter

My Simcity Stuff
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #626  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 6:59 PM
north 42's Avatar
north 42 north 42 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Windsor, Ontario/Colchester, Ontario
Posts: 5,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by haljackey View Post
Just because one city pulls it off does not mean another can using the same strategy.

London and Windsor are similar in many ways but also different. For one thing London is larger. Also Windsor does get more tourism from visiting Americans and I'm sure the casino there helps the city's coffers out a good deal too.

I'm not saying Windsor's strategy is impossible for London, but there would be different challenges and it may not be as effective.
I totally agree, but if don't feel that London is being well served by some officials who deliberately try to mislead their constituents by putting out misinformation about another city' accomplishments, just to justify their own inability to even try to accomplish the same. People like that are what Windsor had to deal with for decades.
__________________
Windsor Ontario, Canada's southern most city!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #627  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 8:05 PM
GreatTallNorth2 GreatTallNorth2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by north 42 View Post
Good for you!

All I know is that since our mayor has been in power, and because of all his changes to the way Windsor is run, we have never been in better shape financially, have never had better infrastructure, have never had so many beautification efforts throughout the city, and have never been in a better to look to the future.
Windsor is building a $1.4 billion 6 lane expressway, which is being funded by the Canadian and Ontario governments. That's a pretty big shot in the arm which didn't cost Windsor a cent, and something that London will never receive. London isn't in the GTA, in the Capital region or a border town. We get nothing! Then again, we never plan big and never ask for anything either. It helps us because if we received the big money, we wouldn't be able to whine and complain as much.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #628  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2014, 3:01 AM
haljackey's Avatar
haljackey haljackey is offline
User Registered
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 3,194


Sums up the upper levels of government's thoughts about London.

Seriously though, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail. We've discussed this a thousand times and yet this still fails to get to our council or elected MPs and MPPs.


People are laughing at Joe Fontana's gondola proposal, but it's refreshing to see a visionary idea for once.
__________________
My Twitter

My Simcity Stuff
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #629  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2014, 1:27 PM
HillStreetBlues HillStreetBlues is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: KW/Hamilton, Ontario
Posts: 995
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2 View Post
Windsor is building a $1.4 billion 6 lane expressway, which is being funded by the Canadian and Ontario governments. That's a pretty big shot in the arm which didn't cost Windsor a cent, and something that London will never receive. London isn't in the GTA, in the Capital region or a border town. We get nothing! Then again, we never plan big and never ask for anything either. It helps us because if we received the big money, we wouldn't be able to whine and complain as much.
You can’t blame upper levels of government. Someone point me to the last big, practical project that the City of London spent money planning and studying, and was then rejected by the provincial or federal governments. The City of London does not do that. You’re right on the money with your whining and complaining remark: the municipal government would rather sit around and moan about how other levels of government ignore London for whatever reason, than make plans good enough that they make it hard to say ‘no’ when taking funding decisions.

Windsor fought for the expressway to be built, because Windsor’s important and it makes sense to make investments there. London could make the same claim, but it doesn’t have sufficient self-confidence.

Re: the gondolas. Crazy, yes (especially since he couldn’t have asked a staff member to go measure the distances he was talking about), but cool. And they can be cheap. Or they can be part paid for by some tourism investment program that’s going to spend the money somewhere anyway. Why not? Of course, I remember: London has no tourism. And never has, so never will. Or something like that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #630  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2014, 1:51 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,639
Who the hell wants to see London, Ontario from the air? OK, maybe a handful of people do (mostly locals) but it gets old really fast and what do you do for an encore? There is no way that Shoeless Joe Fraudtana's Gondolier fantasy holds any merit.
__________________
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."-President Lyndon B. Johnson Donald Trump is a poor man's idea of a rich man, a weak man's idea of a strong man, and a stupid man's idea of a smart man. Am I an Asseau?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #631  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2014, 2:00 AM
manny_santos's Avatar
manny_santos manny_santos is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Westminster
Posts: 4,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Who the hell wants to see London, Ontario from the air? OK, maybe a handful of people do (mostly locals) but it gets old really fast and what do you do for an encore? There is no way that Shoeless Joe Fraudtana's Gondolier fantasy holds any merit.
You might be able to see Centretown Pawnbrokers from up there.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #632  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2014, 6:27 PM
Stevo26 Stevo26 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
gotta love the bullshit corporatist positive spin on shutting factories. MBA-speak strikes again.



Like the Soviet Onion, Kellogg's is on a 4 (yes, I know it was 5) year plan.

Project K. Since when is Crap spelled with K?
In this case, all that 'optimize' really means is 'optimizing our profits'. Seriously, large corporations that do this don't seem to grasp that they're treading a really fine line here. If they keep exporting jobs to low-wage, no-benefit, no health-and-safety regulations countries, eventually there will be no one left in North America who can afford to buy their products because they'll all be out of work.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #633  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2014, 8:30 PM
manny_santos's Avatar
manny_santos manny_santos is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Westminster
Posts: 4,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo26 View Post
In this case, all that 'optimize' really means is 'optimizing our profits'. Seriously, large corporations that do this don't seem to grasp that they're treading a really fine line here. If they keep exporting jobs to low-wage, no-benefit, no health-and-safety regulations countries, eventually there will be no one left in North America who can afford to buy their products because they'll all be out of work.
And they won't be able to afford to buy their shares, either.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #634  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2014, 2:38 PM
MrSlippery519 MrSlippery519 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo26 View Post
In this case, all that 'optimize' really means is 'optimizing our profits'. Seriously, large corporations that do this don't seem to grasp that they're treading a really fine line here. If they keep exporting jobs to low-wage, no-benefit, no health-and-safety regulations countries, eventually there will be no one left in North America who can afford to buy their products because they'll all be out of work.
You are bang on, and the bigger issue is that places like China are starting to get smart. In my industry as an example we see most manufacturing coming out of China/Thailand/etc and over the past 18-24 months their governments are introducing mandatory wage increases for the workers in the double digit percent range.
What has happen is an automotive relay for instance used to cost $0.80 each is now $0.95 each and what can we do about it? North America firstly doesn't have the capability to manufacture the part because those factories are long gone so the up front cost to get machinery back in would be insane. And second even if we did have the facility no way would someone work on an assembly line for $18 and hour because that is just crazy.

They are going to continue raising prices and there is not much we can do about it, maybe eventually the North American workforce might smarten up and realize you should not be making $30 and hour working on a line pressing a button with zero education (I know not all line workers are like that just making a point).

There are ways to keep jobs here and create many more but it would take a dramatic shift in how most North American workers think and what they feel they are "entitled" to make.

Sorry to go a little more off topic and rant but since I work in the industry and see it first hand daily its frustrating to see how things are going and the fact there is a way to change it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #635  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2014, 7:28 PM
MrSlippery519 MrSlippery519 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,075
Well speaking of bad news, another company closing. Invacare

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/02/12/in...erm-care-plant
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #636  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2014, 8:34 PM
HillStreetBlues HillStreetBlues is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: KW/Hamilton, Ontario
Posts: 995
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSlippery519 View Post
They are going to continue raising prices and there is not much we can do about it, maybe eventually the North American workforce might smarten up and realize you should not be making $30 and hour working on a line pressing a button with zero education (I know not all line workers are like that just making a point).

There are ways to keep jobs here and create many more but it would take a dramatic shift in how most North American workers think and what they feel they are "entitled" to make.

Sorry to go a little more off topic and rant but since I work in the industry and see it first hand daily its frustrating to see how things are going and the fact there is a way to change it.
I agree completely with what you’re saying. However, I see more hope. The U.S. is beginning the process of re-shoring some of its manufacturing. It’s a drop in the bucket compared to what was shipped to Asia, but it’s a start and may pick up speed. I’m not saying I agree with it entirely, but a lot of that has been the “right to work” legislation in the southern states (and non-southern states now). That’s why you’ve seen new assembly plants in places like Alabama and Tennessee, but also the parts (and everything else) suppliers. In South Carolina (which got the Siemens outfit that closed a few years back in Hamilton) and Indiana (I don’t need to tell you some of the companies that have expanded there…), workers are choosing to work for less, rather than not work at all. It helps in a lot of these states that you can buy a very good middle-class house for $120,000. And fifteen bucks an hour is a lot better than unemployment.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #637  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2014, 2:23 AM
manny_santos's Avatar
manny_santos manny_santos is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Westminster
Posts: 4,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSlippery519 View Post
You are bang on, and the bigger issue is that places like China are starting to get smart. In my industry as an example we see most manufacturing coming out of China/Thailand/etc and over the past 18-24 months their governments are introducing mandatory wage increases for the workers in the double digit percent range.
What has happen is an automotive relay for instance used to cost $0.80 each is now $0.95 each and what can we do about it? North America firstly doesn't have the capability to manufacture the part because those factories are long gone so the up front cost to get machinery back in would be insane. And second even if we did have the facility no way would someone work on an assembly line for $18 and hour because that is just crazy.

They are going to continue raising prices and there is not much we can do about it, maybe eventually the North American workforce might smarten up and realize you should not be making $30 and hour working on a line pressing a button with zero education (I know not all line workers are like that just making a point).

There are ways to keep jobs here and create many more but it would take a dramatic shift in how most North American workers think and what they feel they are "entitled" to make.

Sorry to go a little more off topic and rant but since I work in the industry and see it first hand daily its frustrating to see how things are going and the fact there is a way to change it.
Mexico is going to be the biggest beneficiary of re-shoring from Asia. Though the recent drop in the Canadian dollar might work in Canada's favour too.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #638  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2014, 3:24 AM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSlippery519 View Post
Well speaking of bad news, another company closing. Invacare

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/02/12/in...erm-care-plant
Yankee firms giveth; Yankee firms take it away. Seems to be the story of London and region (Ford, Heinz, Caterpillar, Kellogg's, ....the list is endless). Until we start generating some home grown corporations, we are just another place to store foreign corporate luggage. Until the whims of globalization shift once again and probably not in London's favour.
__________________
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."-President Lyndon B. Johnson Donald Trump is a poor man's idea of a rich man, a weak man's idea of a strong man, and a stupid man's idea of a smart man. Am I an Asseau?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #639  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2014, 3:25 AM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
You might be able to see Centretown Pawnbrokers from up there.
You have me there.
__________________
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."-President Lyndon B. Johnson Donald Trump is a poor man's idea of a rich man, a weak man's idea of a strong man, and a stupid man's idea of a smart man. Am I an Asseau?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #640  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2014, 1:46 PM
MrSlippery519 MrSlippery519 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
Mexico is going to be the biggest beneficiary of re-shoring from Asia. Though the recent drop in the Canadian dollar might work in Canada's favour too.
No question in the past 20 years in my industry I have seen the shift to Mexico, then to Asia and have already seen some coming back.

Not everyone see's the dollar drop as a good thing but from a manufacturing point of view we need our dollar to continue dropping. Around the 0.80-0.85 range compared to USD would be a decent resting point.

All this said I still feel in Canada especially we could grow our manufacturing sector if people simply viewed those jobs differently, some people feel entitled now seeing people start over $20/h on a line suddenly that is the benchmark. If a plant opened in Ontario and said we are hiring 1000 people...and the pay is $15/hour for a general line worker without a union of course, would people be lined up to work?? I for one think so but it's easier said than done.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > London > London Issues, Business, Politics & the Economy
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:08 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.