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  #21  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 12:36 AM
KeepSanAntonioLame KeepSanAntonioLame is offline
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Look, it's the best via can do without having to put it up for a vote. Let's look at the positive (west side transit center! )
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  #22  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 1:18 AM
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"Fredericksburg Road Congestion Mitigation LF $10,000,000
Address congestion between the downtown business district and the South Texas Medical Center through performance of a detailed traffic analysis and requisite operational improvements (including traffic signal system upgrades, intersection geometric improvements and communication network improvements) and hike and bike amenities. The total cost for this project is currently estimated to be $39 million, with the City’s share expected to equal approximately 26% of this total." CoSA 2007-2012 Bond Program

Believe this project is seriously underfunded. There is no way that they can redo all of the intersections and traffic signal and mitigation for 40 million. I know for a fact that the city is going to spend there money to try to make sure that traffic flows well to the neighborhoods of Fred road. This 40 million I believe is in addition to the 110 million and is for mitigation only. VIA and the City have the same consultant firm, so I'm sure they are going to try to find a way to implement the 40 million into VIA's project, but in reality this 40 million is to make sure that BRT does not mess up one of San Antonio's most important arterials.

In addition, Fred Rd will lose a lane in each direction.


There will be a lot of good things that come out of this. VIA is going to pick up a good chunk of the bill to rebuild Fred Rd, which is in dire need. Even though, it will seem like the BRT will bisect the area more so than a seven lane road already does, there will actually be a lot of pedestrian improvements.

I am not hating on the project it is not all bad, but this is going to change a lot in the area and not necessarily for the better on all accounts. I know for one most of the street side parking in the deco district will be know more.

I Have sat in on several development meetings on this project, and there are not many people outside of VIA that are completely sold on this.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 2:43 PM
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I think, here and now, we need to all stop complaining and whining on the computer and on a message and get up and do something.

VIA is content to use 2000's no vote for light rail as their sole reason for going the BRT route and relegating light rail as nothing more than a bad afterthought.

We San Antonians need to do something proactive in getting VIA to either change their plans or to put light rail back on the ballot for voters.

A petition, a unscientific survey, a website, etc. A real grass roots movement. Getting the media involved and some of the for light rail politicians. That's the only way to give this city a real chance at light rail sooner instead of (much) later.

On a site we could document the real differences between LRT and BRT. We can really educate people, we have the resources alone on this site to do so.

If you guys are behind this, I'll buy a domain name or names and start a site. Get a design, etc.

I wonder if enough people signed an online and real world petition if VIA would be forced or be overwhelmingly convinced to put LRT back to a vote.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 3:05 PM
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I'm game.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 3:21 PM
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Nelson Wolff is working hard for LRT and has some pretty strong backing. Due to a lack of transparency, it's hard to know where they're at in the process, but there's still time to get it on the 2008 November ballot.

Without an open dialogue, it's hard to make it happen, though. VIA is completely unwilling to move forward on rail transit in any capacity and makes no excuses for openly running out rail proponents. Without them on board, it's not easy to get the public on board.

There's support in the city for it, but we're probably too late on getting our highest capacity corridor served by a starter line.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 4:40 PM
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bring on LRT...

until then, i'll keep looking for silver linings to toss in here:

Quote:
Euclid Corridor project helps drive $4 billion in Cleveland development
by Steven Litt / Plain Dealer Architecture Critic
Sunday February 10, 2008, 12:00 AM

Amid all the bad news about Cleveland’s economy, one big, positive number is sure to impress all but the most hardened cynics: $4.3 billion. That’s how much fresh investment — conservatively speaking — is being poured into the four-mile-long strip of land flanking Euclid Avenue, the city’s Main Street, between Public Square and University Circle.

…Private developers with proven records as doers, not speculators, are gearing up to start projects worth more than $1 billion along the corridor in the next five years or so. They include Douglas Price III, Nathan Zaremba, Ari and Richard Maron, and Gordon Priemer.

The amounts they and nonprofit institutions are investing will easily dwarf the money spent by government and partners in the 1990s on sports stadiums and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum.

One big reason for the energy is the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority’s $200 million Euclid Corridor project, which is reshaping Euclid Avenue around a bus rapid transit line.

…Planning literature is packed with proof that streetcars and light rail inspire “transit-oriented development.” So far, it seems, bus rapid transit is doing the same in Cleveland.


The $4.3 billion figure cited above is based on news stories and interviews with developers. It doesn’t include the $200 million Euclid Corridor project itself. Nor does it include projects such as developer Scott Wolstein’s upcoming $400 million redevelopment on the east bank of the Flats, or Robert Stark’s proposed $1.5 billion development in the Warehouse District.

Nevertheless, the numbers are adding up quickly as momentum builds.

“Every day, more projects are being planned,” Goldberg said. “At a certain point, you reach a critical mass and it becomes self-sustaining.”
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  #27  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 4:51 PM
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It connects two stations on their most-used heavy rail line in a corridor that's been heavily speculated on for decades. It runs by their university, through downtown and by land with pre-existing demand.

It may have been a catalyst, but BRT is not the primary reason for development.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 5:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexjon View Post
It connects two stations on their most-used heavy rail line in a corridor that's been heavily speculated on for decades. It runs by their university, through downtown and by land with pre-existing demand.

It may have been a catalyst, but BRT is not the primary reason for development.
Ya, it is apples and oranges, but we're still talking fruit, right?

All of which raises a couple more questions for me...

Would adoption of TIF zones by the City of San Antonio around the BRT stations make anyone feel more confident about the prospects for TOD associated with this project?

or...

Would a second line announcement (say Broadway from the Airport to Downtown) have made you feel differently about the BRT prospects here, as well as the TOD possibilities?

(by the way, i am thrilled that this discussion has been so civil - i almost sound like a BRT apologist, so i am surprised no one has jumped on me....but let it be known i would much prefer LRT - but want to figure out more about what we're getting and how it might make the greatest impact... )
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  #29  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 5:10 PM
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As most of you know, i just moved back to TX from Johannesburg, South Africa...and they happen to be putting in a BRT system ahead of the 2010 FIFA World Cup.

They announced a ton of lines at once (over 300 km) and I wonder if that the shear commitment to the mode isn't a driver of development in that city (which is more of a sprawling suburban mess than you could ever imagine a 3rd world city to be)....

^^This idea spawned my 2nd question above about additional lines as they relate to TOD.

Quote:
BRT Inspires Density In Johannesburg
A broad bus rapid transit system in the works in Johannesburg, South Africa, is sparking a wildfire of dense, mixed use development plans for the city.

"Built around a new bus commuter transport network and integrated with the R27bn Gautrain project, Jo'burg is planning a city dominated by wide boulevards lined with landscaped pavements, multi storey flats, offices, shopping and entertainment."

"These mixed-use boulevards will connect a series of high-rise business districts, like Sandton's CBD where skyscrapers of 40 floors and higher will be common, and 20 floors or higher in Rosebank and Randburg."

"This dense new urban fabric is the meat on the bones of a bus rapid transit (BRT) system, which Jo'burg wants to introduce in April 2009. About 330 km of BRT routes will be built throughout the city - a project to which the bulk of its R3bn-R4bn yearly infrastructure budget will be dedicated."

"By 2020 this system will be within 500 m of most people's front doors and a large proportion of those front doors will be in rental or sectional title flats. By then Johannesburg will be as dense as London with estimates of about 4 500 people for every km²."
http://www.planetizen.com/node/28316
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  #30  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 6:00 PM
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I think if BRT is applied as true BRT and not the american dillution, then there could be a chance at density improvement. However, you're talking about a nation with an understated middle class with access to cars beyond most other nations.

Quality of Service has to be exceptional to breed more development without an existing high-capacity system, but that can't come from mixed-traffic BRT since it slows headways and diminishes capacity. In a corridor, people will build to potential-- limiting the corridor in this way as a start will either stifle development or lowball it beneath what could come from the potential with a higher-capacity system.

Remember, Fred Road can sustain 400' trains, something that has a single functional unit capacity of 800-1000 passengers. With modest headways of once every 15 minutes, a single island dual-platform station can push through 8,000 passengers at crush load. Peak hour headways of once every 5 minutes ups that median station's potential to 24,000. This would make a station in the mid-point between the Med Center and Downtown capable of sustaining the commuter needs of 72,000 people with standard work hours in a half mile radius, supposing a 3 hour peak commuting period from 6-9am and 3-6pm.

Of course, this central location could also be the focal point of a fantastic system of feeder buses.

The corridor may not be built up at this point, but it has the highest potential-- maximizing the benefits of a guaranteed growth corridor is within the city's best interest, even if it means only one rail line.

Personally, I wouldn't want BRT on Broadway since that's the secondary or tertiary corridor within the north part of the city and should follow the growth patterns of Fred Road.
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Last edited by alexjon; Jul 30, 2008 at 6:24 PM.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 6:32 PM
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What about San Pedro, from North Star to downtown or SAC?
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  #32  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 6:35 PM
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What about San Pedro, from North Star to downtown or SAC?
All should be LRT at some point.

I think BRT is the best solution to connect them at 410 and eventually 1604 with perhaps a line that also hits Sea World
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  #33  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 6:54 PM
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BRT can drive development in 3rd-world countries due to several factors: 1. it's not competing against cars, and 2. authoritarian control over land-use. It's never, not even once, led to what any reasonable observer would call TOD in this country.

The Cleveland article is a joke. I commented on it at streetsblog a few weeks ago.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 6:58 PM
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In all honesty this is a great start, for all of the little things that people don't like, get over it. Point is San Antonio needs something like this so that people can kind of get a small taste of what LRT WILL be like.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 8:11 PM
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In all honesty this is a great start, for all of the little things that people don't like, get over it. Point is San Antonio needs something like this so that people can kind of get a small taste of what LRT WILL be like.
BRT is nothing like LRT. It's still a bus, it will still share traffic in many points, it lacks full-on capacity and scalability and the only benefit it gives to commuters is a chance to see what it's like to stand at a fancy station, only to be disappointed at what shows up.

Don't tell people to "get over it" when there are dozens of examples of BRT failing to meet expectations and clear proof that it does not provide the capacity a city with the growth potential of San Antonio needs.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 8:54 PM
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There is also the "light-rail bias". One of the reasons why Metro in Houston decided to turn the BRT lines back to LRT.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 9:30 PM
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There is also the "light-rail bias". One of the reasons why Metro in Houston decided to turn the BRT lines back to LRT.
this is for real.

might this "light-rail bias" erode with high gas prices?

i think the fact that people had decent economic alternatives (their own car) made the decision against riding a bus easier in the past. rail (being cleaner, quieter, and more upmarket friendly) could win the battle against the car a little easier, since the reputation hit for Joe Officeworker showing up to work via the train is a little more socially acceptable than if he had hopped off a bus.

as more and more people graduate in their thinking, i have to hope that some will come over to the (rapid) mass transit side, whether it be on rubber tires or on rails.

(personal example: my white 27-year old pregnant wife rides the bus in san antonio and consistently gets surprised looks from coworkers, relatives, and friends alike. while many think she's "crazy" or
"unsafe", many more looked into the possibilities for themselves and a few have actually started riding. her decision gave them social permission to ride as well.)
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  #38  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 9:45 PM
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You can't build a system on the hope that people will be forced to ride-- you have to convince them with quality of service and not value. People have long known cars are more expensive, but transit ridership has not grown as quickly as car ridership.

If SA really wants savings over LRT, they can simply invest in 60' artics and reduce the number of intermediate stops. An $800,000 bus is not the way to go. Wendell Cox is not your messiah.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sakyle04 View Post
this is for real.

might this "light-rail bias" erode with high gas prices?

...since the reputation hit for Joe Officeworker showing up to work via the train is a little more socially acceptable than if he had hopped off a bus.

(personal example: my white 27-year old pregnant wife rides the bus in san antonio and consistently gets surprised looks from coworkers, relatives, and friends alike. while many think she's "crazy" or
"unsafe", many more looked into the possibilities for themselves and a few have actually started riding. her decision gave them social permission to ride as well.)
That would suck if I worked with people that think that they are too good for the bus. But would you really care what your co workers think? I know that I would not.

I work in downtown SA and most of the people that I work with that live a ways outside of 410 take the bus. I am talking Project Engineers, Architects, and Project Managers, and people seem to be proud to ride the bus not the other way around.

Hay, different strokes I guess.

I live right next to a VIA transit center. I would have no problem riding into town, but I carpool with wife, daughter and co-worker.

There is nothing wrong with buses, we need something better than a bus only system.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 10:02 PM
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[QUOTE=STLtoSA;3704423]That would suck if I worked with people that think that they are too good for the bus. But would you really care what your co workers think? I know that I would not.[QUOTE]

we actually live near downtown and commute outside of 1604, so that may be where the anti-bus sentiment comes from - the crowd that has never seen one within 5 miles of their neighborhood.
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