Portland Transit | TriMet/Mass Transit News

[MarkDaMan]

^The rest of the Oregonian article goes on to compare the MAX line development to Cleveland's BRT and how Cleveland is actually superior.

[RED_PDXer]

Originally Posted by MarkDaMan

Study: TriMet MAX Blue Line nation's top transit system for spurring development
By Joseph Rose | jrose@oregonian.com
on September 24, 2013 at 5:32 PM, updated September 24, 2013 at 5:55 PM

http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/..._river_default

ugh.. this "study" is practically worthless. Why does the media pick up on this shit? It's not an academic article and thus benefits from no peer review. it was published on the institute's own website. it says Cleveland's BRT only cost $50 million compared to $1.6 billion for Blue line. that's 7 miles of bus running on the street compared to 33 miles of light rail in its own right of way. and the cost comparisons are apples to grapes. Cleveland's BRT costs includes ONLY the buses and station platforms while the Portland LRT includes EVERYTHING, such as sidewalks, street improvements, traffic signals, landscaping, public art, and everything else that goes into a major transportation project. The Cleveland project is offically listed as close to $200 million, not the $50 million claimed by this study.

Also, the Cleveland project opened just 6 years ago and virtually all the development claimed by the authors is institutional development such as the hospital and museum.. Both of which cost extraordinarily high costs per square foot of development compared with basic retail and residential development. Finally, it appears that the development values reported are self-reported and are not comparable. For example, Cleveland probably reports the full value of development, while TriMet's value is probably based on regional building permit data for which developers likely compresses values in order to pay lower fees.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by RED_PDXer

ugh.. this "study" is practically worthless. Why does the media pick up on this shit? It's not an academic article and thus benefits from no peer review. it was published on the institute's own website. it says Cleveland's BRT only cost $50 million compared to $1.6 billion for Blue line. that's 7 miles of bus running on the street compared to 33 miles of light rail in its own right of way. and the cost comparisons are apples to grapes. Cleveland's BRT costs includes ONLY the buses and station platforms while the Portland LRT includes EVERYTHING, such as sidewalks, street improvements, traffic signals, landscaping, public art, and everything else that goes into a major transportation project. The Cleveland project is offically listed as close to $200 million, not the $50 million claimed by this study.

Also, the Cleveland project opened just 6 years ago and virtually all the development claimed by the authors is institutional development such as the hospital and museum.. Both of which cost extraordinarily high costs per square foot of development compared with basic retail and residential development. Finally, it appears that the development values reported are self-reported and are not comparable. For example, Cleveland probably reports the full value of development, while TriMet's value is probably based on regional building permit data for which developers likely compresses values in order to pay lower fees.

Also, doesn't that price include tunneling through the West Hills?

[davehogan]

I tried to channel my inner teabagger to complain about how the tunnel through the West Hills is just socialism, but I must be too tired to come up with something. I'm sure there's a way to blame someone for it though.

[bvpcvm]

I guess this goes here.....

Portland-to-Salem commute by train? Amtrak, Oregon add extra daily passenger rail trips through Willamette Valley

In a move expected to pull at least some daily Portland-to-Salem commuters off Interstate 5, Amtrak has announced that it will add new train trips through the Willamette Valley on its fast-growing Cascades line in 2014.

The passenger rail company and the Oregon Department of Transportation will replace its southbound early morning bus (6:05 a.m.) from Portland's Union Station to Eugene with a train on week days. Meanwhile, Eugene riders heading north will be able to take a late-afternoon train to Portland for the first time.

Currently, the latest northbound train leaves Eugene at 12:36 p.m. In the new year, there will be 4 p.m. departure to Portland.

[MarkDaMan]

March 19th, 2014 By AARON MESH | News | Posted In: Transportation, Metro, City Hall
Portland Aerial Tram Getting Too Crowded, Planners Say
Willamette Week

http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-3...planners_.html

Seven years after its $57 million construction, the Portland Aerial Tram faces a perhaps enviable problem: It's too crowded at rush hour to be included in future transit planning.

"It's near capacity during rush hour right now," says Malu Wilkinson, principal regional planner for Metro. "So adding more people that need to use that tram would be a challenge."

The conundrum, first reported by Nick Christensen of Metro News, came up Tuesday at an advisory-group meeting to discuss plans for a Southwest Corridor High Capacity Transit line.

The project, a light-rail or bus rapid transit line running through Southwest Portland to Tualatin, could include drilling a second train tunnel through the West Hills under Oregon Health and Sciences University.

...

[hat]

Originally Posted by MarkDaMan

March 19th, 2014 By AARON MESH | News | Posted In: Transportation, Metro, City Hall
Portland Aerial Tram Getting Too Crowded, Planners Say
Willamette Week

http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-3...planners_.html

There are a few considerations here:
1. Is this based on actual data, i.e. what is the capacity now, and what is the projected capacity with respective changes in the future? (I think the CRC projections are still fresh in our minds.)
2.Does anyone know if it is possible to add capacity to the tram, i.e. add another gondola?

If, in fact, these projections proves true, it would be a blow to the inner Barbur alignment for the SW corridor. My primary concern with this:

1. It may become prohibitively expensive (whatever that means)
2. It proves to be an argument to for BRT for the entire alignment, and have people transfer to bus 8 downtown for OHSU (as currently).
3. The SW corridor overshadows the Powell corridor, limiting any consideration for LRT on Powell. I would by far prefer LRT on Barbur and inner Powell.

The tunnel would be fantastic, but the potential for SE (where most lower income people are compared to SW) to improve trumps any OHSU tunnel. I say this after OHSU has opted to ask the state for a half a billion already.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by hat

There are a few considerations here:
1. Is this based on actual data, i.e. what is the capacity now, and what is the projected capacity with respective changes in the future? (I think the CRC projections are still fresh in our minds.)
2.Does anyone know if it is possible to add capacity to the tram, i.e. add another gondola?

1) Capacity "now" is the same as capacity in the "future". It's very easy to calculate. 80 passengers every 5 minutes (the quickest possible turnaround time for the gondolas) equals 960 people/hour each direction. I can see how quickly that capacity would be reached considering that tens of thousands of people work on the hill.

2) No, you can't add more gondolas to the existing system, they work as a pair. But you could replace the existing cars with larger ones. You could also build a second aerial tram to increase capacity.

Originally Posted by hat

If, in fact, these projections proves true, it would be a blow to the inner Barbur alignment for the SW corridor. My primary concern with this:

1. It may become prohibitively expensive (whatever that means)
2. It proves to be an argument to for BRT for the entire alignment, and have people transfer to bus 8 downtown for OHSU (as currently).
3. The SW corridor overshadows the Powell corridor, limiting any consideration for LRT on Powell. I would by far prefer LRT on Barbur and inner Powell.

The tunnel would be fantastic, but the potential for SE (where most lower income people are compared to SW) to improve trumps any OHSU tunnel. I say this after OHSU has opted to ask the state for a half a billion already.

I'm not sure what you mean with 1) and 2), but the SW corridor should absolutely be the next priority for HCT. It's the last part of the city without it and the most in need of it. SE Portland will have both the Orange and Green lines serving it (and possibly an extension of the Yellow line to the Clinton station), so a tunnel to OHSU, the best way to efficiently serve tens of thousands of commuters on an isolated hill, in no way diminishes SE Portlanders. In fact, it would make it easier for them, and ALL Portlanders, to get to their jobs and doctor's appointments on the hill.

What does the University's "ask" from the State have to do with transit planning? They're two separate things entirely.

[hat]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

1) Capacity "now" is the same as capacity in the "future". It's very easy to calculate. 80 passengers every 5 minutes (the quickest possible turnaround time for the gondolas) equals 960 people/hour each direction. I can see how quickly that capacity would be reached considering that tens of thousands of people work on the hill.

2) No, you can't add more gondolas to the existing system, they work as a pair. But you could replace the existing cars with larger ones. You could also build a second aerial tram to increase capacity.



I'm not sure what you mean with 1) and 2), but the SW corridor should absolutely be the next priority for HCT. It's the last part of the city without it and the most in need of it. SE Portland will have both the Orange and Green lines serving it (and possibly an extension of the Yellow line to the Clinton station), so a tunnel to OHSU, the best way to efficiently serve tens of thousands of commuters on an isolated hill, in no way diminishes SE Portlanders. In fact, it would make it easier for them, and ALL Portlanders, to get to their jobs and doctor's appointments on the hill.

What does the University's "ask" from the State have to do with transit planning? They're two separate things entirely.

First, I agree that SW has (and has had for a long time) a need for a MAX. Adding just a few bus lines from the 2012 Portland Afoot bus rankings to the 12 (some from 94, 1, 44-I have no idea how to get a decent estimate-etc.), gets a fairly high ridership.

http://portlandafoot.org/w/Bus_rankings

Second, Do you know the capacity of larger gondolas? Is this a feasible solution, i.e. one that would allow for growth, or is this pushing the inevitable back a few more years?

Looking back at the antiquated (apologies for the circa 2000 pic) map of Portland showing relative income, you can also see the respective populations. Not only is SW Portland a higher mean income, it also has a fraction of the population (like one quarter).

It would make little sense to build a MAX to the Barbur TC, for example, but it would make a lot of sense to build one to I-205. All of the buses that cross the current Green Line or Powell would then have a reason to transfer. The 9, 4, 10, 14 etc. would all be effected.

Let me reiterate my support for building a MAX on the SW Corridor. It is, however, unclear that "a tunnel to OHSU, the best way to efficiently serve tens of thousands of commuters on an isolated hill, in no way diminishes" the potential for a MAX on Powell.

[dubu]

id rather a powell line and have a elivater go up to OHSU. just bike through the tunnel and then later have a train tunnel. if it takes that long for a underground line

[digme]

There are other Trams out there that have capacity of over 100 people. Who knows how much the would need to change to increase capacity. It could be as "simple" as switching out the cars or as complicated as a complete replacement.

A tunnel under the hill with an elevator for the new SW MAX would be amazing.

[robocop]

Just my two-cents: I brought up the topic of tram overcrowding to my roommate who attends the OHSU Dental School, and uses the Tram daily. He pointed out that though yes, it is overcrowded during peak rush-hour times, to keep in mind that beginning next fall (September) many sectors of the school, including Dental, will be moving into Skourtes tower on the waterfront next to the new bridge -- eliminating a lot of the traffic that goes back and forth.

Though this doesn't nullify the overall problem, this may become less of an issue as the school continues to expand across the South Waterfront, spreading the masses of people across two separate centralized "bases", rather than just one.

Then again, I'm no city/urban planner, nor do I claim to be!

[davehogan]

Originally Posted by robocop

Just my two-cents: I brought up the topic of tram overcrowding to my roommate who attends the OHSU Dental School, and uses the Tram daily. He pointed out that though yes, it is overcrowded during peak rush-hour times, to keep in mind that beginning next fall (September) many sectors of the school, including Dental, will be moving into Skourtes tower on the waterfront next to the new bridge -- eliminating a lot of the traffic that goes back and forth.

Though this doesn't nullify the overall problem, this may become less of an issue as the school continues to expand across the South Waterfront, spreading the masses of people across two separate centralized "bases", rather than just one.

Then again, I'm no city/urban planner, nor do I claim to be!

The space that's vacated by the doctors moving to the SoWa campus will eventually be refilled. It seems like a bad idea to tell them they're done employing anyone new at the top of the hill just because the trams are full.

[zilfondel]

I highly doubt they would replace the tram gondolas - they were custom designed by a Swiss gondola design firm just for Portland. THey are world-class.

If they did, they would also have to replace the entire stations, tram tower, cables, etc - everything in the system, as it was all engineered to handle a certain amount of weight and to accommodate the size of the gondolas. The parts are custom and are not interchangeable.

It would also be a waste of the $57 million that was spent on the design and architecture of the project to begin with!

[65MAX]

I agree, replacing the existing gondolas would be outrageously expensive.

A more likely scenario for adding capacity would be to build a second tram adjacent to the current one. Ideally, it would go from the new Schnitzer Campus up to a station right next to the current upper station.

[RED_PDXer]

Perhaps some of you will recall that the tram used to run more frequently by a couple minutes. If they just returned to that frequency, they would have more capacity. There's no reason they have to sit idle for 2 minutes after each run. I suspect this Metro planner was speaking in a vein to support some sort of high capacity transit line serving OHSU more directly (aka, the tunnel options). I suspect there will be some backtracking on this statement.

[Shilo Rune 96]

Originally Posted by davehogan

The space that's vacated by the doctors moving to the SoWa campus will eventually be refilled. It seems like a bad idea to tell them they're done employing anyone new at the top of the hill just because the trams are full.

No, the current School of Dentistry is going to be demolished.

[MarkDaMan]

Originally Posted by RED_PDXer

Perhaps some of you will recall that the tram used to run more frequently by a couple minutes. If they just returned to that frequency, they would have more capacity. There's no reason they have to sit idle for 2 minutes after each run.

By my naked eye I haven't noticed an increase or decrease in runs. Do you have a source?

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by Shilo Rune 96

No, the current School of Dentistry is going to be demolished.

So that it can be replaced with something else. Right?

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by MarkDaMan

March 19th, 2014 By AARON MESH | News | Posted In: Transportation, Metro, City Hall
Portland Aerial Tram Getting Too Crowded, Planners Say
Willamette Week

http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-3...planners_.html

The project, a light-rail or bus rapid transit line running through Southwest Portland to Tualatin, could include drilling a second train tunnel through the West Hills under Oregon Health and Sciences University.

If the Metro does a tunnel through the West Hills under OHSU I would hope they would run light rail through it. Though I think it would be a great idea to do something like they have in Seattle where both light rail and bus run through their tunnel. Something like that would make it easier to run buses to the SW and could help speed up the bus service and reduce any wait time in traffic.