Phoenix CityScape Thread - Page 106

JimInCal · #**2101** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 4:05 AM**

The Cityscape web site has been completely overhauled. Here's the link.

http://www.downtownphxrising.org/default.asp

HX_Guy · #**2102** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 4:22 AM**

Wow...looks great, construction photos and such. I gotta go through it all and see if any new info is up that we haven't heard about. Thanks for the heads up.

AZ KID · #**2103** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 4:40 AM**

WOW is right! its amazing

HX_Guy · #**2104** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 4:59 AM**

Ok, so here's what I gathered from the site...

Nothing new really revealed, though some stuff may in the the finer details, such as "Bank of Arizona" and "*** Peterson Associates" listed on the exterior of of the office tower.

A good thing, it looks like the majority of the lobby floor of the tower is retail, with retail facing Washington St and 2nd St.
The bad thing, it looks like there are only 25 floors according to the floorplate diagrams.

PHXguyinOKC · #**2105** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 5:37 AM**

they're still showing the apartments on the patriots block

kaneui · #**2106** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 7:24 AM**

From the revamped website, it looks like the project is now being defined as two blocks, although a couple renderings of the condo/hotel towers on the far eastern block still remain. Also, it seems they've added back the elevated pedestrian bridge over Central.

After all the great public input and ideas suggested for this prime location, it's a shame the developers couldn't deliver some world-class architecture to give downtown an iconic landmark. Looking at the latest revisions, Citiscape seems destined to be just another cookie-cutter mixed-use project with nothing memorable to recommend it.

Downtown_resident · #**2107** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 3:38 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaneui

From the revamped website, it looks like the project is now being defined as two blocks, although a couple renderings of the condo/hotel towers on the far eastern block still remain. Also, it seems they've added back the elevated pedestrian bridge over Central.

After all the great public input and ideas suggested for this prime location, it's a shame the developers couldn't deliver some world-class architecture to give downtown an iconic landmark. Looking at the latest revisions, Citiscape seems destined to be just another cookie-cutter mixed-use project with nothing memorable to recommend it.

Bingo. $120M in incentives and a handover of a park at the 0,0 block of the city and this is what we got in return? And the developer of suburban strip malls is still leaving us to guess at the project's engagement of the street. Heads ought to roll at city hall.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com

HX_Guy · #**2108** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 3:52 PM**

They aren't getting $120M in incentives if only two blocks are built. The agreement was split it up a while ago by block.

HX_Guy · #**2109** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 4:30 PM**

To add to that...I would have loved, probably more then anyone else here, to see something iconic at that site...I attended every meeting, wrote emails, met with the developers to urge them to have vision but honestly, look around at what is going on. I really do feel we're lucky to get even what is proposed right now, and who really knows if everything, even the scaled down versions, will be built. If you guys haven't noticed, the economy is struggling bad right now...businesses are dropping like flies everyday...and not just the huge ones you see on the news, but all over shopping centers around Phoenix. They are saying that how bad the residential real estate market is doing now...is how bad the commercial real estate market will be doing next year.

I guess the alternative would have been to leave the blocks as they were and wait for the next upswing, but it may be out further then this one was...so we would probably have been looking at another 10+ years of parking lots and an empty park. In actuality, we are getting half of that, because the eastern most block seems to have been abandoned right now, so that still gives someone the opportunity to build something grand in the center of the city.

gymratmanaz · #**2110** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 4:37 PM**

HX_GUY, I couldn't agree with you more. We are lucy to be getting anything now. I also agree, that possibly, this could be a good thing in that once we turn the corner economically, we could get an even better building on the east lot. Assuming Cityscape is a success and JSED goes as planned, others are bound to want to capitalize on the new surge in downtown.

HX_Guy · #**2111** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 5:22 PM**

To put things a little bit more into perspective, take a look at this article about how the Chicago high-rise market is struggling...I mean they have towers with the foundations built, and nothing else is happening...and even towers that are partially built, and have been abandoned, at least for the time being...similar to our Hotel Monroe. Here is a quote from Trump...

"The tower is "the only building that got built, and the skeletons of the other ones are strewn all over the place," Trump said. "The days of building buildings like this are over. It will take 10 years to finance buildings like this.""

But is CHICAGO...if a place like Chicago can't hack it, what chance does Phoenix have?

CANUC · #**2112** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 6:04 PM**

Yeah, the market is really in one of the worst conditions that I can remember but don’t put too much into what some people say simply because they have a connection to the industry. Shortly after 9/11 Donald Trump in an interview on the Howard Stern show swore that the days of high rise buildings like the World Trade Center were over and that we would simply see more dense develop like what we see in Europe. He stated that super tall high rises as a matter of fact were actually un-necessary and simply a symptom of capitalist excess.

Fast forward a few years and this same guy breaks ground on a 92 story 1171 foot tall residential tower. A few years later the market tanks and he reverts back to the “The days of building buildings like this are over.” Do you really believe that if the market turned around next year Trump wouldn’t build another high rise? I guess its only facts as long as they claim it is. Some may make statements that sound true like, oh I don’t know

Quote:

“The Patriots square block is currently in redesign and unfortunately the apartment portion is no longer part of the project.”

yet seem to get countered with what is actually presented. Are we suppose to take things they say at face value? Or is a little skepticism in both direction with a wait and see attitude a more prudent approach?

Downtown_resident · #**2113** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 6:16 PM**

First, I've argued for a while that Phoenix has progressed beyond the point where we should feel "lucky" to get something mediocre.

Second, I don't buy the economy-as-scapegoat argument. From the project's inception its issues were obvious-- a suburban developer was proposing an inward-focused two-story shopping mall on the 0,0 block. Those issues are not market-driven in any way. (True, that bleak reality was ameliorated a bit by the deal's other components, the hotel, condo and office towers, but even in 2007 when the project was moving through the process the economy was soft and guys like Soleri were questioning the project's viability, as you can see from his comments on my blog).

Anyway, not meaning to re-open this can of worms any more than it is already...I'll shut up now and will keep trying to ignore CityScape while awaiting word that construction's resumed on Hotel Monroe. That's a cool project.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com

Vicelord John · #**2114** Posted **Sep 25, 2008, 10:19 PM**

what we are going to get as a project is crap.

neworleans · #**2115** Posted **Sep 26, 2008, 4:05 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

what we are going to get as a project is crap.

only one phase of collier center ever got built, and it turned out to be a beautiful building. And even though 44 monroe never built its crown, it's still an amazing addition to downtown.

bwonger06 · #**2116** Posted **Sep 27, 2008, 12:41 AM**

Looks like Wachovia is not going to survive

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=158438

This will have HUGE effects on cityscape if they lose their biggest tenant.

HX_Guy · #**2117** Posted **Sep 27, 2008, 12:50 AM**

Wachovia isn't the only major company leasing space in the office tower plus it's already well under construction. I hope I'm right, but I don't think Wachovia failing as a company would mean that the office tower would be abandoned.

Vicelord John · #**2118** Posted **Sep 27, 2008, 1:55 AM**

yeah I seriously doubt that the anchor tenant pulling out can end construction on a building that has already poked above ground.

bwonger06 · #**2119** Posted **Sep 27, 2008, 2:04 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Wachovia isn't the only major company leasing space in the office tower plus it's already well under construction. I hope I'm right, but I don't think Wachovia failing as a company would mean that the office tower would be abandoned.

I agree. I do not think abandoned, but I can imagine RED is pissing their pants right now.

exit2lef · #**2120** Posted **Sep 27, 2008, 6:00 AM**

I'm not sure if a Citi / Wachovia merger would really jeopardize the presence in CityScape. To the best of my knowledge, Citibank does not offer retail banking in Arizona, and Wachovia is just getting started. The new combined bank would probably want to continue the current effort of setting up retail branches and establishing a regional headquarters, even if the name of the door is Citibank rather than Wachovia.