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  #41  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2018, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
In contrast, the highest-density neighborhoods in the city - mostly rowhouse levels of density - are not "family" areas. Indeed, as they gentrify, the number of children (mostly poor white and black) continues to drop.
i've seen this repeated across the midwest...lincoln park, soulard, over-the-rhine...
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  #42  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2018, 8:45 PM
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Squirrel Hill, excepting topography, tree coverage and current demographics, looks pretty similar to the affluent former Jewish neighborhoods of NW Detroit (University District and Sherwood Forest).
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  #43  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2018, 9:01 PM
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Squirrel Hill, excepting topography, tree coverage and current demographics, looks pretty similar to the affluent former Jewish neighborhoods of NW Detroit (University District and Sherwood Forest).
squirrel hill also looks A LOT like a hilly version of parts of university city and clayton, missouri which are heavily jewish in parts.... though generally referring to areas with lots of reform jews and not the (generally) somewhat less affluent orthodox areas (although they blend).
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  #44  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 1:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Squirrel Hill, excepting topography, tree coverage and current demographics, looks pretty similar to the affluent former Jewish neighborhoods of NW Detroit (University District and Sherwood Forest).
Yeah. As far as I've been able to establish, Squirrel (and some adjoining areas like Point Breeze) are pretty unique for the Rust Belt, insofar as they were a large swath within city limits that avoided both white and middle class flight (one census tract has an average household income of $164,000 - two others are above $100,000 - and that's with college students bringing the average down). The local public schools are even relatively well regarded - at least on the K-8 level. You go there at night and you see packs of high school kids hanging out on the sidewalks in the business district. It has the vibe of a walkable middle-class suburb (mixed in with a bit of student slum in places) not the vibe of a city neighborhood.

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squirrel hill also looks A LOT like a hilly version of parts of university city and clayton, missouri which are heavily jewish in parts.... though generally referring to areas with lots of reform jews and not the (generally) somewhat less affluent orthodox areas (although they blend).
I can see the similarity, though I'd never confuse those roads for Pittsburgh because you have that wide gap between the sidewalk and the road where you put grass and trees. As we've said before, it's almost never more than a foot in Pittsburgh, and often missing entirely if the area is either old enough to have rowhouses, or was built out after the 20s.
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  #45  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 1:50 PM
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A couple of other random Squirrel Hill streetviews:

1950s/1960s era street (probably the best collection of mid-century modern in the city)

Summerset at Frick Park (semi new urbanist infill only around ten years old)

Very wealthy street on northern fringe of neighborhood.

Fifth Avenue - the border between Squirrel Hill and Shadyside - used to be lined with multi-acre estates. These were knocked down for apartment blocks in the mid 20th century, which form nearly the entire northern edge of Squirrel Hill. The residents are overwhelmingly college students, and increasingly Asian exchange students.

One of several "micro" business districts in the neighborhood. Here's another. And another.

Nearby Point Breeze is similar to Squirrel Hill in that it upper-middle class. It's way less Jewish/Asian and more genetic white liberals though. While Squirrel Hill is almost entirely built out between 1920 and 1950, Point Breeze is a strange mix of late 19th century and mid-20th century. Basically it was another area where there were originally many large multi-acre estates for the wealthiest Pittsburgh residents, along with a few nodes of higher density. The estates, as was the case on Fifth Avenue, were sold off and broken up, mostly redeveloped from the 20s to the 60s. Only one remains today, and it is a museum. Point Breeze has a nice little business district (only one block in length. It's a great example of a business district with a few essentials (coffeeshop which serves lunch, upscale Italian place, Belgian restaurant and bar) plus a few nice to haves (2 vets, sewing shop, dry cleaners, 2 hair salons, pet supply store, photographer, art studio/class space). Unfortunately it's not walkable to the majority of the neighborhood.
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  #46  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
A couple of other random Squirrel Hill streetviews:

1950s/1960s era street (probably the best collection of mid-century modern in the city)

Summerset at Frick Park (semi new urbanist infill only around ten years old)

Very wealthy street on northern fringe of neighborhood.

Fifth Avenue - the border between Squirrel Hill and Shadyside - used to be lined with multi-acre estates. These were knocked down for apartment blocks in the mid 20th century, which form nearly the entire northern edge of Squirrel Hill. The residents are overwhelmingly college students, and increasingly Asian exchange students.

One of several "micro" business districts in the neighborhood. Here's another. And another.

Nearby Point Breeze is similar to Squirrel Hill in that it upper-middle class. It's way less Jewish/Asian and more genetic white liberals though. While Squirrel Hill is almost entirely built out between 1920 and 1950, Point Breeze is a strange mix of late 19th century and mid-20th century. Basically it was another area where there were originally many large multi-acre estates for the wealthiest Pittsburgh residents, along with a few nodes of higher density. The estates, as was the case on Fifth Avenue, were sold off and broken up, mostly redeveloped from the 20s to the 60s. Only one remains today, and it is a museum. Point Breeze has a nice little business district (only one block in length. It's a great example of a business district with a few essentials (coffeeshop which serves lunch, upscale Italian place, Belgian restaurant and bar) plus a few nice to haves (2 vets, sewing shop, dry cleaners, 2 hair salons, pet supply store, photographer, art studio/class space). Unfortunately it's not walkable to the majority of the neighborhood.
spectacular. i live in a mid century pocket like those on there, but because the topography is much less extreme, the pockets are not nearly as, well pocket-y as the neighborhood blows out 100% post-war post-mcm on the other end. that's fantastic, i'd be clamoring for one of those houses in pittsburgh.
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  #47  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 5:27 PM
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spectacular. i live in a mid century pocket like those on there, but because the topography is much less extreme, the pockets are not nearly as, well pocket-y as the neighborhood blows out 100% post-war post-mcm on the other end. that's fantastic, i'd be clamoring for one of those houses in pittsburgh.
Pittsburgh has relatively little good MCM architecture. The most common mid-century styling here are these kinda bunker-like two-story brick structures which I think are supposed to be bastardized colonials. The seemingly random window sizing and placement - coupled with the ubiquitous use of shutters as ornaments which aren't anywhere near wide enough to cover the windows if they were closeable - always irks me.
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  #48  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 5:42 PM
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someone help i've fallen into a p-hole (pittsburgh hole) on google earth!
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  #49  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
As far as I've been able to establish, Squirrel (and some adjoining areas like Point Breeze) are pretty unique for the Rust Belt, insofar as they were a large swath within city limits that avoided both white and middle class flight
my neighborhood (lincoln square) on the northside of chicago has remained predominately white and middle class for all of its existence.

but it's not detached SFH (only ~15% of housing units are detached SFH), it's mostly flats and low-rise apartment buildings.

and with a population density over 20,000 ppsm, it's quite urban for a city neighborhood 7 miles outside of downtown.

in fact, you won't find many city neighborhoods anywhere in the US that sustain that kind of density 7 miles outside of their respective downtown (not including NYC, obviously, the urban density behemoth).

hell, looking at this density map, there aren't many zip codes anywhere at all in the US (again outside of NYC) that can sustain a density over 20,000 ppsm.

there's NYC (in a league of its own), then chicago, san fran, LA, boston, philly, and DC. other than a couple each in miami and seattle, that's pretty much it for the whole nation.
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  #50  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 12:36 AM
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Plano Texas is middle class - it is technically a city.
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  #51  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 2:01 AM
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The problem in a place like San Francisco is that "high density" isn't the same thing as "a high percentage of middle class families". Much of our density is single people and quite a few of them aren't middle class (in either direction--upper class and lower class).
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  #52  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 2:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The U.S. hasn't built a "from scratch" urban neighborhood in 80 years, really. I'm not sure what current development has to do with whether or not there are urban neighborhoods.

I've been to Nashville in the last year, BTW. It's plenty vibrant and interesting, but about as far from traditionally urban as it gets.
portland built two. south waterfront and the pearl district.
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  #53  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 3:45 AM
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Minneapolis has tons of genuinely middle class neighborhoods in the city. It is probably most of the city.

These aren't upscale, gentrified "middle class" neighborhoods, but the less romantic everyday type. This is the apartments and houses version:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9586...thumbfov%3D100

Neighborhoods like this are a little bit further out:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9377...7i13312!8i6656

The Bungalow Belt version in the outer neighborhoods:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9352...7i13312!8i6656

Immigrant homeowners and working class middle aged hipsters with kids in Northeast:

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0037...7i13312!8i6656

I can't speak for other cities, but part of the reason the Twin Cities haven't built any new urban fabric from scratch is that the decay and poorly conceived redevelopment of the post war era left the central cities with so many vacant lots, strip malls, parking lots and crappy one story suburban style storefronts that pretty much all of the increased demand for urban living can be met by building midrises on underutilized properties in the core. Minneapolis proper has grown by 10% so far this decade just by building on sites that are low hanging fruit. It can probably add another 80,000 people without touching much of the old fabric. St Paul is in the same boat. The people who want urban living would rather live in the core than in a new neighborhood on the periphery, even if it is dense. As long as we can continue to build housing they can afford in the core there will be no incentive to build greenfield urban housing.

Last edited by Chef; Aug 11, 2018 at 4:08 AM.
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  #54  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 4:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Minneapolis has tons of genuinely middle class neighborhoods in the city. It is probably most of the city.

These aren't upscale, gentrified "middle class" neighborhoods, but the less romantic everyday type. This is the apartments and houses version:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9586...thumbfov%3D100

Neighborhoods like this are a little bit further out:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9377...7i13312!8i6656

The Bungalow Belt version in the outer neighborhoods:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9352...7i13312!8i6656

Immigrant homeowners and working class middle aged hipsters with kids in Northeast:

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0037...7i13312!8i6656

I can't speak for other cities, but part of the reason the Twin Cities haven't built any new urban fabric from scratch is that the decay and poorly conceived redevelopment of the post war era left the central cities with so many vacant lots, strip malls, parking lots and crappy one story suburban style storefronts that pretty much all of the increased demand for urban living can be met by building midrises on underutilized properties in the core. Minneapolis proper has grown by 10% so far this decade just by building on sites that are low hanging fruit. It can probably add another 80,000 people without touching much of the old fabric. St Paul is in the same boat. The people who want urban living would rather live in the core than in a new neighborhood on the periphery, even if it is dense. As long as we can continue to build housing they can afford in the core there will be no incentive to build greenfield urban housing.
Why doesn't Minneapolis get more attention on here? What a great place.
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  #55  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 4:50 AM
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Why doesn't Minneapolis get more attention on here? What a great place.
It is probably the least visited larger city in the US. It is far away from both coasts. It isn't near any prominent touristy attractions. There are no other large cities nearby. This means it isn't the sort of place people accidentally go through on their way to somewhere else. I think that gives it a low profile in general.

Last edited by Chef; Aug 11, 2018 at 5:07 AM.
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  #56  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 7:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The U.S. hasn't built a "from scratch" urban neighborhood in 80 years, really.
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Originally Posted by pdxtex View Post
portland built two. south waterfront and the pearl district.
San Francisco as well has built one or two depending on your definition and has about 3 more planned or in early construction. The best current example is Mission Bay which has a thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=128118

This is the new Golden State Warriors arena (Chase Center) going up in the middle of it all:


https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/art...photo-15626237

Just about all the buildings in the foreground of this photo, as far is the elevated freeway you can see a bit of, are new. It was planned as a mixed neighborhood with a lot of midrise housing but also a campus of UC San Francisco, the arena, a new justice center (police headquarters), hotels, office and retail.

Also planned are the redevelopment of the old Hunter's Point Naval Shipyard, the redevelopment of Candlestick Point (where Candlestick Park used to be) and the redevelopment of Treasure Island.
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  #57  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 11:12 AM
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nice!l looks like a bigger version of boston's seafront development
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  #58  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 11:15 AM
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brownstone brooklyn is 'middle class' in the new york context

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  #59  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 12:12 PM
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portland built two. south waterfront and the pearl district.
stapleton in denver...a city neighborhood 2 miles by 2 miles from scratch...
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  #60  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 1:26 PM
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portland built two. south waterfront and the pearl district.
I would not consider either to be traditionally urban. They have wide streets, large building footprints, extensive parking accommodations, and the like.

Urban neighborhoods need fine-grain. Obviously all vibrant cities have "new urban districts" like Pearl, Mission Bay, Boston Harbor, etc. but they aren't traditionally urban. They're blocky buildings, quiet streetscapes, and suburbanized retail serving a homogenized demographic. There are no corner shoe repairs or tenement holdouts.
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