Winnipeg Jets

[rrskylar]

^ It's not hard to trade a guy, Im sure the Blackhawks would like him back.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by trueviking

dustin byfuglien signing is only proof that they were finally able to tell him where he will live next year.....if there was still doubt he would have at least waited until the end of the season to renew.

why would he sign a contract if there was still debate over where he and his family will be for the next 5 years?

the answer is he wouldnt.

He would sign for money. Simple as that. There's no guarantee he won't be traded. So how can he possibly know where he'll be playing for the next 5 years. Unless a player has a no-trade clause where he's playing is secondary to the money. byfuglien has no idea where he'll be playing next year. It could be Atlanta, Winnipeg, Quebec city or any of the other 29 NHL cities via a trade.

[Matthew]

I seem to remember the Jets averaged 13,000 fans. The Thrashers have reached around 16,000 or 17,000 fans for several years. The team plays in an arena with 18,500 seats. 13,000 fans watching a losing team with talks of moving and ownership issues in the warm Southeast U.S. (snow is rare and the lakes and rivers don't freeze here - hockey is only played indoors here) is very impressive. I'm more of a Caps and Hurricanes fan (former North Carolinian who relocated to Atlanta after college). The Coyotes average around 13,000 fans, so it is better to move Phoenix's team to Winnipeg, where it won't have lower attendance a few years after the move. A better ownership group and a better product on the ice will bring consistent crowds of 15,000-17,000 back to Atlanta. I think the diversity of Atlanta will also be a strength in keeping the team in Phillips Arena.

We do have both NHL and a minor league team (ECHL) at the Gwinnett Center. Atlanta also has an MLB and two minor league baseball teams (both A and AAA). Gwinnett also has a football team. The minor leagues are often the best family value for suburbanites.

[bigcheeba]

Originally Posted by Matthew

I seem to remember the Jets averaged 13,000 fans. The Thrashers have reached around 16,000 or 17,000 fans for several years. The team plays in an arena with 18,500 seats. 13,000 fans watching a losing team with talks of moving and ownership issues in the warm Southeast U.S. (snow is rare and the lakes and rivers don't freeze here - hockey is only played indoors here) is very impressive. I'm more of a Caps and Hurricanes fan (former North Carolinian who relocated to Atlanta after college). The Coyotes average around 13,000 fans, so it is better to move Phoenix's team to Winnipeg, where it won't have lower attendance a few years after the move. A better ownership group and a better product on the ice will bring consistent crowds of 15,000-17,000 back to Atlanta. I think the diversity of Atlanta will also be a strength in keeping the team in Phillips Arena.

We do have both NHL and a minor league team (ECHL) at the Gwinnett Center. Atlanta also has an MLB and two minor league baseball teams (both A and AAA). Gwinnett also has a football team. The minor leagues are often the best family value for suburbanites.

The dollar was also somewhere in the 60 cent range back then, and we didn't offer fraction priced tickets or 3000 cubic circonia ring give away nights. If the league counted actually attendance Phoenix and Atlanta would be far below the indicated averages. Both Atlanta and Phoenix were also in the playoff hunt for most of the season this year and its still been an embarrassment seeing half empty seats on televised games. Just because 15,000 people show up doesn't mean they paid anywhere near the league average for a ticket, nor does it guarantee that the team didn't loose money while throwing out these goofy promotion to try and lure people into the seats (phoenix had a marketing scheme directed towards Canadians and even offered Molson Canadian and Poutine). Both teams have lost an insane amount of money, but I'd rather see Phoenix come to Winnipeg.

[Mininari]

Meanwhile, in Vancouver and Toronto, the scalpers have a special going on EVERY night.

Buy one at 200% original price, get the second for face value!

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Mininari

Meanwhile, in Vancouver and Toronto, the scalpers have a special going on EVERY night.

Buy one at 200% original price, get the second for face value!

Hahaha, so true

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

I agree.

ATL is also a bigger market and has more corporate support than PHX

Its unfortunate that the ownership in ATL never gave a crap about this franchise to begin with. Unlike in Phoenix where they tried almost everything even bringing Wayne Gretzky in to help market, nothing worked.

They dont even have as many dedicated hockey fans as there are in ATL.

Yet, for reasons out of control or out of the scope of "fairness" they are the ones being saved.


I assure you, thanks to ASG fighting, the wheels have already been set in motion and are not turning back.

I would much rather Phoenix move by some crazy form of luck, but it ain't happening imo.

Either or, enjoy every game you can like a true hockey fan. In Winnipeg we've already gone through this, so we can feel your pain...

PHX is about Bettmans ego. And that is why the NHL will remain 4th in the US.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by dennis1

PHX is about Bettmans ego. And that is why the NHL will remain 4th in the US.

Im a huge proponent of NHL return 2 Winnipeg & Quebec City,

but I think this is a huge over simplification of the matter - not a bad thing - but I see very little correlation between Bettman's ego and Phoniex (the guy is the Commisioner...he has a specific job to do) and between why his ego makes NHL 4th in a market it is only regionally strong in anyways...

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

Im a huge proponent of NHL return 2 Winnipeg & Quebec City,

but I think this is a huge over simplification of the matter - not a bad thing - but I see very little correlation between Bettman's ego and Phoniex (the guy is the Commisioner...he has a specific job to do) and between why his ego makes NHL 4th in a market it is only regionally strong in anyways...

PHX was only saved and turned into this mess for 2 reasons: 1- Bettman did not want Balsillie to have any part of the NHL, especially after the NSH fiasco. 2- If the NHL lost control of where franchises moved, it could set an even worse precedent than Al Davis and the NFL.

If the NHL was smart, they would have closed up shop after the Ice Edge nonsense and let the Jets comeback. Then, focus on saving Atlanta, the 9th largest media market. Let's be honest roccefeller, the NHL will lose nothing by losing PHX, those fans, the few they have, will go to LA, SJ or COL. That market is only the 13th largest and can be replaced by Kansas City. If the NHL loses atlanta, it will also lose Western NC, Eastern TN, SC, MS and AL.

That is a lot of people. And not a risk I am willing to take.

[rrskylar]

From the Glendale Star


Glendale Tea Party Patriots host town hall meeting on Coyotes

Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 1:54 pm | Updated: 1:55 pm, Tue Feb 22, 2011.

The Tea Party Patriots of Glendale, and residents of Glendale will be hosting a Town Hall meeting to discuss a possible civil challenge against the Glendale City Council for its decision to use $197 million taxpayer funds to subsidize the Phoenix Coyotes hockey team.
An open Town Hall event was slated to be held Feb. 23 at the Marie Callendar's Restaurant, 4930 W. Bell Road.

Carrie Ann Sitern, attorney for the Goldwater Institute who has investigated this situation, was scheduled to present the Goldwater Institute's research on the matter and present the information to all Glendale residents. She was also scheduled to propose several options which Glendale residents can take in addressing residents concerns in this matter.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by dennis1

PHX was only saved and turned into this mess for 2 reasons: 1- Bettman did not want Balsillie to have any part of the NHL, especially after the NSH fiasco. 2- If the NHL lost control of where franchises moved, it could set an even worse precedent than Al Davis and the NFL.

If the NHL was smart, they would have closed up shop after the Ice Edge nonsense and let the Jets comeback. Then, focus on saving Atlanta, the 9th largest media market. Let's be honest roccefeller, the NHL will lose nothing by losing PHX, those fans, the few they have, will go to LA, SJ or COL. That market is only the 13th largest and can be replaced by Kansas City. If the NHL loses atlanta, it will also lose Western NC, Eastern TN, SC, MS and AL.

That is a lot of people. And not a risk I am willing to take.

True, NHL has more to lose by losing ATL than PHX - no doubt about it. I also believe ATL has more fans, more dedicated fans, than PHX does. ATL has been riddled with ownership issues for a long time, making it hard for them to focus on running the team well, and I think their ownership issues were more severe than those in PHX. To be fair ownership plays a huge role in how a franchise is run.

That said, somethings are too far down the path to change now. Regardless of how important a city is or isn't, is not the ultimate "question" or point at hand. It boils down to "is there someone willing and able to own the team in this given market?"

The NHL enforces standards. People forget that Bettman, as commissioner, does a pretty good job on paper: he has grown revenues, no doubt about it. Regardless of which market hates him or loves him, to an extent, he is also just the face of the organization: ultimately he dictates who can be his boss in the sense he has power over single owners, but ultimately concedes to the whole ownership group - the BOG. These guys are his bosses. We never truly know how much they dictate what goes on. The NHL as a body has rules, which you noted, and this is why Phx was saved, as you noted. Bettman specifically has nothing to do with it any more than the BOG does: After the Phx to Hamilton fiasco, he was quoted as saying "Never say never" to JB, but JB "needs to understand the system" they have. The NHL is a partnership, and the BOG did not vote him in. Bettman simply enforced this.

There is another thing to note regarding Phx: They built the arena. It doesn;t have everything to do with Bettman saving the Yotes; the CoG was willing to be absolutely ridiculous in supporting the Coyotes, giving away $100MM in bonds and another $97MM to manage the arena. Bettman's first duty is to prevent a team from moving at any cost, regarding relocation.

Im not defending the guy himself, but I am suggesting his position is often overlooked as is the municipality or organization that runs an arena, the BOG, or the ownership groups involved. Its more complex than just "Bettman's ego", is what i'm suggesting.

Plus, the NHL being 4th, I dunno - NHL is really only strong regionally in the US. More teams in Canada will never make the NHL stronger in the US. So that point is moot. Really only along "hockey culture cities" in the North is the NHL strong, and in the south, with exceptions, its a different story. To grow the game there takes a lot of luck, the right conditions, the right marketing, etc... its never gonna work 100% of the time when its not in the culture.

I would suggest "Winnipeg and Quebec City" deserve teams. That doesn't mean they will get them. Likewise, just because a city doesn't want to lose a team, doesn't mean it won't leave.

The situation in Atlanta is on a whole other level than the one in Phoenix, and each situation is jumbled up in its own way. If there was another market other than Winnipeg that had a willing owner and NHL rink in the whole continent, there would be no issue...the thing is you have one ownership group that wants to own the team where it already is (Phx) and a city trying to do its best to prevent them from moving for their own reasons (pride, ego would work with COG imo), and another market where the owners want no more team (ATL)

... and only one solution, which is Winnipeg. There are no other markets in North America with a willing, able ownership, rink that pleases Mr Bettman, and prospective plans ready should a team need to relocate other than Winnipeg.

Quebec City will be one day, but until there are shovels in ground ready to build the new arena, the NHL will be much more conservative about them being a willing market. Plus we don't know who exactly will be the owner...Bell and Quebecor both seem to have their eye on winning the ownership for QC.

I definitely agree that the whole thing with IEH was ridiculous, but remember that happened AFTER the COG agreed to put the $25MM in escrow so they could keep searching for a new owner, and thus, it was AFTER the NHL signed an agreement that there will be no relocation consideration until after Dec 31, 2010. So they were legally bound in addition to being bound by duty, as explained already.

ATL and PHX are different situations, and because ASG owns and operated the two main tenants in the Phillips arena, it really changes the whole optics of the situation.

The NHL has one solution. There's a reason why they're trying so hard and their patience is testing hard with 2 problems. At the very least, Matthew Hulsizer wants to own the Coyotes. He's a smart dude, getting COG when they are most desperate, and the NHL as a result says "cool"

in ATL, regardless of current speculation, there does not seem to be a willing owner in light right now, and they want to get rid of their team.

I think personally, TNSE would rather deal with ATL, and always wanted to deal with ATL.

But given they are the NHL's only solution, what happens if you approve the relocation of the Thrashers and the Yotes bond fails? Then what? Contract the team and disrupt the entire league? Relocate somewhere where it is not possible? Unless QC is farther along than we know, I think they're a year too premature from being ready...having all the pieces in play...

It has nothing to do with ATL is the better market, needs a team there...etc... I agree

Both ATL and PHX are on paper better markets for a professional team. But the realities settle with the business side of things, and if Phx wants to keep their team so bad but ATL's owners don't, thats the way the cookie crumbles.

What remains to be seen is really if the bonds sell.

This one thing is the main thing overall, and these next few weeks are very important.

[Bdog]

^As always, another well-written, well-researched Roccerfeller...

[Matthew]

Yes, the tickets for NHL are extremely expensive, which is why Gwinnett's Gladiators rank among the top ECHL teams in attendance. It's a cheaper night-out for the entire family and closer to home for suburbanites. It (expensive tickets) is however the reality of major league sports and why the teams speak of large markets and avoiding small markets. Suburban Atlanta is filled with minor league sports teams promoting cheap family entertainment.

I think the main issue is still the same as it was in the 1990s. There are only maybe six markets in Canada that can host a major league franchise. Winnipeg is not one of them. Winnipeg would likely become the smallest major league market in North America (less than half the size of most small ML markets) and though the city has a new arena, it would become the smallest arena in the NHL. Quebec City is actually a larger media market than Winnipeg. Back to ticket prices, you need as many of the upper-end (wealthy) metro area residents with the money to spend for higher priced seats and multi-game plans as possible. Average fan ticket sales can show support and help sell advertising, team merchandise and concessions, but the real money is from corporate suites and premium seating (why so many teams want new facilities with these features), which is best supported in large markets. Note the six storey wall of luxury suites in Atlanta's Phillips Arena. This is also how the Jets could sell 13,000 tickets a game at full price and still have the same financial difficulties as a team with lower numbers or a team giving away tickets to reach the same ticket numbers. Teams can use promotions to bring fans into the arena, where they will buy merchandise and concessions, while looking at advertising surround them and maybe that experience will convince them to buy more tickets, better seats and maybe a more expensive season ticket package. Still, the premium suites and seating plans are where the money is. I'm guessing a Winnipeg team would depend heavily on fans in places like Regina and Moose Jaw buying cheaper tickets on the weekend. I do believe the Coyotes would do better in Winnipeg though. They can't give away tickets in Phoenix. Atlanta does have the corporate support, the premium seating support and can bring in fans to see advertising and buy concessions. Atlanta also has the 8th largest media market. The Atlanta metro area is larger than Toronto's. Moving a team out of a top ten market sends a message of failure for the league, sales and the sport's popularity. I think the Thrashers need stability in Atlanta (good ownership and dedication to winning) and the team will do well. The Coyotes do need to move.

Again, I would move Phoenix's team. I'm also wanting the Coyotes to move back to Winnipeg and prove a small market can host a major league franchise. Winnipeg is one of my favorite cities, along with Regina (which explains why I read this section of the forum). Past experience does prove the team will likely struggle after a few years in a small market though. Again, it's your chance to prove them wrong for all the small markets with major league dreams!

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Yes, the tickets for NHL are extremely expensive, which is why Gwinnett's Gladiators rank among the top ECHL teams in attendance. It's a cheaper night-out for the entire family and closer to home for suburbanites. It (expensive tickets) is however the reality of major league sports and why the teams speak of large markets and avoiding small markets. Suburban Atlanta is filled with minor league sports teams promoting cheap family entertainment.

I think the main issue is still the same as it was in the 1990s. There are only maybe six markets in Canada that can host a major league franchise. Winnipeg is not one of them. Winnipeg would likely become the smallest major league market in North America (less than half the size of most small ML markets) and though the city has a new arena, it would become the smallest arena in the NHL. Quebec City is actually a larger media market than Winnipeg. Back to ticket prices, you need as many of the upper-end (wealthy) metro area residents with the money to spend for higher priced seats and multi-game plans as possible. Average fan ticket sales can show support and help sell advertising, team merchandise and concessions, but the real money is from corporate suites and premium seating (why so many teams want new facilities with these features), which is best supported in large markets. Note the six storey wall of luxury suites in Atlanta's Phillips Arena. This is also how the Jets could sell 13,000 tickets a game at full price and still have the same financial difficulties as a team with lower numbers or a team giving away tickets to reach the same ticket numbers. Teams can use promotions to bring fans into the arena, where they will buy merchandise and concessions, while looking at advertising surround them and maybe that experience will convince them to buy more tickets, better seats and maybe a more expensive season ticket package. Still, the premium suites and seating plans are where the money is. I'm guessing a Winnipeg team would depend heavily on fans in places like Regina and Moose Jaw buying cheaper tickets on the weekend. I do believe the Coyotes would do better in Winnipeg though. They can't give away tickets in Phoenix. Atlanta does have the corporate support, the premium seating support and can bring in fans to see advertising and buy concessions. Atlanta also has the 8th largest media market. The Atlanta metro area is larger than Toronto's. Moving a team out of a top ten market sends a message of failure for the league, sales and the sport's popularity. I think the Thrashers need stability in Atlanta (good ownership and dedication to winning) and the team will do well. The Coyotes do need to move.

Again, I would move Phoenix's team. I'm also wanting the Coyotes to move back to Winnipeg and prove a small market can host a major league franchise. Winnipeg is one of my favorite cities, along with Regina (which explains why I read this section of the forum). Past experience does prove the team will likely struggle after a few years in a small market though. Again, it's your chance to prove them wrong for all the small markets with major league dreams!

Good and valid points. I don't think anyone doubts Winnipeg's or Quebec's passion for hockey or their ability to sell out their arenas. However, most of the lower tier NHL franchises still have revenues of well over $70 million with gate receipts often in the $26 million and above range. Columbus had revenues of $71 million and still lost $12 million for the season. Buffalo draws over 18,000 a game, yet still had gate receipts of only $28 million and lost $9 million. 15,000 seats a game at the NHL average of $51.00 is only $31 million per year. At the average for the lower tier teams level of $37.50, it would only be $23 million. The big question is can Winnipeg come up with the $50-$55 million in non-gate revenue (more or less depending on league revenue sharing numbers) they would need each year in order to be profitable? It won't be easy, but I hope they get the chance to show what a team in the smallest NHL market can do.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by Bdog

^As always, another well-written, well-researched Roccerfeller...

Thanks man

Originally Posted by Matthew

Yes, the tickets for NHL are extremely expensive, which is why Gwinnett's Gladiators rank among the top ECHL teams in attendance. It's a cheaper night-out for the entire family and closer to home for suburbanites. It (expensive tickets) is however the reality of major league sports and why the teams speak of large markets and avoiding small markets. Suburban Atlanta is filled with minor league sports teams promoting cheap family entertainment.

I think the main issue is still the same as it was in the 1990s. There are only maybe six markets in Canada that can host a major league franchise. Winnipeg is not one of them. Winnipeg would likely become the smallest major league market in North America (less than half the size of most small ML markets) and though the city has a new arena, it would become the smallest arena in the NHL. Quebec City is actually a larger media market than Winnipeg. Back to ticket prices, you need as many of the upper-end (wealthy) metro area residents with the money to spend for higher priced seats and multi-game plans as possible. Average fan ticket sales can show support and help sell advertising, team merchandise and concessions, but the real money is from corporate suites and premium seating (why so many teams want new facilities with these features), which is best supported in large markets. Note the six storey wall of luxury suites in Atlanta's Phillips Arena. This is also how the Jets could sell 13,000 tickets a game at full price and still have the same financial difficulties as a team with lower numbers or a team giving away tickets to reach the same ticket numbers. Teams can use promotions to bring fans into the arena, where they will buy merchandise and concessions, while looking at advertising surround them and maybe that experience will convince them to buy more tickets, better seats and maybe a more expensive season ticket package. Still, the premium suites and seating plans are where the money is. I'm guessing a Winnipeg team would depend heavily on fans in places like Regina and Moose Jaw buying cheaper tickets on the weekend. I do believe the Coyotes would do better in Winnipeg though. They can't give away tickets in Phoenix. Atlanta does have the corporate support, the premium seating support and can bring in fans to see advertising and buy concessions. Atlanta also has the 8th largest media market. The Atlanta metro area is larger than Toronto's. Moving a team out of a top ten market sends a message of failure for the league, sales and the sport's popularity. I think the Thrashers need stability in Atlanta (good ownership and dedication to winning) and the team will do well. The Coyotes do need to move.

Again, I would move Phoenix's team. I'm also wanting the Coyotes to move back to Winnipeg and prove a small market can host a major league franchise. Winnipeg is one of my favorite cities, along with Regina (which explains why I read this section of the forum). Past experience does prove the team will likely struggle after a few years in a small market though. Again, it's your chance to prove them wrong for all the small markets with major league dreams!

That's a very nice comment to leave us with thanks man. And also I appreciate you speaking your mind. Its important that these issues are raised, or these apparent misconceptions are raised too. For instance, I noted in a post above that you guys really support your ECHL team. And you do! No doubting that. Atlanta is a much more important market to the NHL. But a lot of your points, while strong and important, fall secondary to what I maintain is the utmost important thing: Is there someone willing and able to own a franchise in a market?

In ATL's case, the current group wants to "dispose" (their words, or rather their lawyers interpretation in a legal document) of their team.

However, I am going to really rip your post apart here...this is just discussion in my eyes do not take it personally

1) You mentioned at the beginning of your post Winnipeg is "simply not a market" that can support a major league team, but ending it with "its your chance to prove them wrong"

I couldn't pinpoint your stance here, could you clarify please

2) Yes, Winnipeg would be the smallest market. But the market size is large enough for the product. Think about what the product is: NHL Hockey, the highest level of professional hockey. Think about the culture: Winnipeg is in Canada, in the prairies, and hockey is a big part of the culture. Yes, we have a ton of ethnic cultures in Winnipeg too, and the city is growing primarily through immigration. I can tell you first hand, second hand, and third hand that even different ethnicities and minorities follow hockey in Canada. Its part of the Canadian culture. Everyone from Europe to Africa that immigrates here starts following it because its big here. This is also why culture plays a big role...

3) ... which is my next point. Regardless of the potential of Atlanta (between you and I, I believe it has huge potential), the current statistics are not in ATL's favor in terms of an argument. Recent TV statistics show that ~9000 households watch NHL hockey there. This is in addition to the 6000 - 13000 fans that fluctuate in ATL games. On paper, in a 5 million PLUS metro market, this is absolutely not desirable. Brandon, the second largest city in Manitoba, likely has similar viewers watching NHL. Its about 50 000 ppl.

4) Quebec City, while a larger media market, by the end of this year will be a smaller city (barely) than Winnipeg. The population growth here, by Canadian standards, is the fastest growing for a city under a million, and is not gonna stop anytime soon. We have momentum, and that momentum will continue for a long time to come. Somewhat unrelated to NHL, this is due to finally having a stable economy, and building on it. This was not the case when the NHL left; we were coming out of our own recession. We actually had net stagnation in the 90's.

5) I don't see too many people from Regina or Moose Jaw buying tickets Kinda a long drive Keep in mind, our building fits 15k. The potential hockey market size of Winnipeg, is at worst, 50 000 people. In reality, it is likely in excess of a hundred thousand people, easy. Not gonna be a problem finding the people to fill the arena.

6) you bring up ticket prices. I will bluntly say you will find 15k people willing to pay Canadian ticket prices to an NHL game. Simply put (this is a simple example so bear with me), if you have 10 000 fans in ATL paying $35 a ticket vs 10 000 people in Winnipeg paying $70 a ticket, who ends up making the ownership more money?

7) Atlanta has HUGE corporate support. But I need more evidence it is not the fanbase and only the corporate support that has lead the owners to suggest they lose ~$20 million dollars a YEAR. Ownership issues aside, $20MM is a huge sum. Multiply that by how long they've owned the team, and the fact the previous owners (pre-lockout) lost similar amounts of money...

8) Phoenix has lost more, so no arguing that Phoenix would be the most likely candidate in a perfect relocation world to move, but this reality is Glendale's city council is entirely willing to subsidize the team insane amounts of money, to keep them there. COG owns the arena, so they have this right if they wish to. ASG has an entirely different situation...they own the arena. They can privately sell the team if they want to. They might do this.

9) You compared ATL to Toronto. Can you speculate as to why there is a huge discrepancy between the NHL teams in these two markets? A lot of it has to do with culture in my mind...this is what makes Winnipeg a larger hockey market than Atlanta. In Atlanta, I don't see a potential fanbase of even 100 000 people in the city right now (add the households plus STHs and its below 20 000). Case in point, Edmonton is a much smaller market in every way than Atlanta, but it is easily and historically a larger market in terms of hockey than most American teams. Especially if gate revenue and merchandise sales are any indication. Winnipeg would not be quite as much, but it would be similar.

10) You mentioned 13k tix in Winnipeg. I don;t know if this was a historical reference, to which I will say that this was still in line with the league average at the time, or if this was a hypothetical "New Jets" team average. You can bet your socks the building will be packed. Long term questions still remain, but the population isn't getting any smaller, the hockey culture isn't going away, and ...

11) ... corporate support here is much stronger than QuebecCity. This is overlooked. Yes, our brethren to the east have the larger media market, and this is good for them. This gives them a leg up. But according to the group that would own the NHL in Winnipeg, Corporate Support is not an issue. Clearly if Corporate Support was the answer, ASG would not want to sell the Thrashers at all, and the Thrashers would not be losing any money at all

12) final point is in terms of wealthiness, don't forget Winnipeg has one of Canada's wealthiest neighbourhoods as reported by Macleans; only Toronto, Montreal, Calgary had wealthier neighbourhoods. Its not like everyone here is a penny pincher. This "layman" reputation came as a result of media, and the 80s/90s decades which were rough for the city.

13) ultimately it boils down to ownership. It does not matter than Winnipeg cannot support a team or Atlanta is larger than Toronto or a bigger media market than pretty much everything. Is there a willing owner? So far, in Atlanta, I wouldnt put too much faith in your owners. TNSE is willing and able to own an NHL franchise here. They own the area, they get all the revenue stream, the biggest things that led to the Jets leaving are all gone, the old barn you mentioned here couldn't even support the revenues necessary to keep the team here, no one wanted to own the team, the city council was somewhat inept, the dollar was 60 cents to the American dollar...(imagine if the American dollar was 60 cents to the CDN; all these losses in the States would be magnified by 40%!!!)


Tons of things to note, and its a lot of stuff, but I think its worth mentioning.

It would really suck if ATL had to move, I agree, but things are far down the path. I'm not trying to dissuade any hope you guys have for the Thrashers, and not trying to suggest they should move...I too would rather see Phoenix move (although if they could have Atlanta's players I would rather that ), but my personal and your personal desires aside, its about business at the end of the day.

If you want to number crunch, we can go down that route, and I can show on a basic financial level why Quebec City and Winnipeg would be richer, more stable franchises than Atlanta or Phoenix as it currently stands today.

Not a slant towards you or the hardcore Thrashers fans, you guys are good hockey fans with a lot of knowledge who should not have to lose ANOTHER team (something we can't say we've been through...we only lost one and that was bad enough!)

But business is the biggest thing, and if the NHL cannot find any owners for ASG to get the Thrashers....then I don't have to finish that train of thought...Im sure you understand its not lookin' good


Your best hope to hold onto the Thrashers, is that the bonds fail to sell in Phoenix.


You and I however have NO control over what will happen. What's going to happen, will happen regardless, and there's nothing we can do about it.


You raised some good points man, keep em coming.

I'm disregarding the ownership issues and focusing on the fundamentals right now. The Thrashers have been wrongfully mismanaged.

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

True, NHL has more to lose by losing ATL than PHX - no doubt about it. I also believe ATL has more fans, more dedicated fans, than PHX does. ATL has been riddled with ownership issues for a long time, making it hard for them to focus on running the team well, and I think their ownership issues were more severe than those in PHX. To be fair ownership plays a huge role in how a franchise is run.

That said, somethings are too far down the path to change now. Regardless of how important a city is or isn't, is not the ultimate "question" or point at hand. It boils down to "is there someone willing and able to own the team in this given market?"

The NHL enforces standards. People forget that Bettman, as commissioner, does a pretty good job on paper: he has grown revenues, no doubt about it. Regardless of which market hates him or loves him, to an extent, he is also just the face of the organization: ultimately he dictates who can be his boss in the sense he has power over single owners, but ultimately concedes to the whole ownership group - the BOG. These guys are his bosses. We never truly know how much they dictate what goes on. The NHL as a body has rules, which you noted, and this is why Phx was saved, as you noted. Bettman specifically has nothing to do with it any more than the BOG does: After the Phx to Hamilton fiasco, he was quoted as saying "Never say never" to JB, but JB "needs to understand the system" they have. The NHL is a partnership, and the BOG did not vote him in. Bettman simply enforced this.

There is another thing to note regarding Phx: They built the arena. It doesn;t have everything to do with Bettman saving the Yotes; the CoG was willing to be absolutely ridiculous in supporting the Coyotes, giving away $100MM in bonds and another $97MM to manage the arena. Bettman's first duty is to prevent a team from moving at any cost, regarding relocation.

Im not defending the guy himself, but I am suggesting his position is often overlooked as is the municipality or organization that runs an arena, the BOG, or the ownership groups involved. Its more complex than just "Bettman's ego", is what i'm suggesting.

Plus, the NHL being 4th, I dunno - NHL is really only strong regionally in the US. More teams in Canada will never make the NHL stronger in the US. So that point is moot. Really only along "hockey culture cities" in the North is the NHL strong, and in the south, with exceptions, its a different story. To grow the game there takes a lot of luck, the right conditions, the right marketing, etc... its never gonna work 100% of the time when its not in the culture.

I would suggest "Winnipeg and Quebec City" deserve teams. That doesn't mean they will get them. Likewise, just because a city doesn't want to lose a team, doesn't mean it won't leave.

The situation in Atlanta is on a whole other level than the one in Phoenix, and each situation is jumbled up in its own way. If there was another market other than Winnipeg that had a willing owner and NHL rink in the whole continent, there would be no issue...the thing is you have one ownership group that wants to own the team where it already is (Phx) and a city trying to do its best to prevent them from moving for their own reasons (pride, ego would work with COG imo), and another market where the owners want no more team (ATL)

... and only one solution, which is Winnipeg. There are no other markets in North America with a willing, able ownership, rink that pleases Mr Bettman, and prospective plans ready should a team need to relocate other than Winnipeg.

Quebec City will be one day, but until there are shovels in ground ready to build the new arena, the NHL will be much more conservative about them being a willing market. Plus we don't know who exactly will be the owner...Bell and Quebecor both seem to have their eye on winning the ownership for QC.

I definitely agree that the whole thing with IEH was ridiculous, but remember that happened AFTER the COG agreed to put the $25MM in escrow so they could keep searching for a new owner, and thus, it was AFTER the NHL signed an agreement that there will be no relocation consideration until after Dec 31, 2010. So they were legally bound in addition to being bound by duty, as explained already.

ATL and PHX are different situations, and because ASG owns and operated the two main tenants in the Phillips arena, it really changes the whole optics of the situation.

The NHL has one solution. There's a reason why they're trying so hard and their patience is testing hard with 2 problems. At the very least, Matthew Hulsizer wants to own the Coyotes. He's a smart dude, getting COG when they are most desperate, and the NHL as a result says "cool"

in ATL, regardless of current speculation, there does not seem to be a willing owner in light right now, and they want to get rid of their team.

I think personally, TNSE would rather deal with ATL, and always wanted to deal with ATL.

But given they are the NHL's only solution, what happens if you approve the relocation of the Thrashers and the Yotes bond fails? Then what? Contract the team and disrupt the entire league? Relocate somewhere where it is not possible? Unless QC is farther along than we know, I think they're a year too premature from being ready...having all the pieces in play...

It has nothing to do with ATL is the better market, needs a team there...etc... I agree

Both ATL and PHX are on paper better markets for a professional team. But the realities settle with the business side of things, and if Phx wants to keep their team so bad but ATL's owners don't, thats the way the cookie crumbles.

What remains to be seen is really if the bonds sell.

This one thing is the main thing overall, and these next few weeks are very important.

- very well written

- I agree they are different. It was handled poorly and it made the NHL look like a joke!

- You brought up a great point here, what if the Thrash go to Wpg and the Bonds fail? IMO an absolute nightmare and a joke beyond repair. If QC is not ready at that time, the NHL is screwed. And even if they were, Quebecor is not that stupid, they will want expansion because of the state of the franchise.

[Matthew]

In response to roccerfeller:

#1 To clarify, Everything says this won't work in Winnipeg at present. Including a money losing Jets team that relocated not long ago. In the future, yes, but at present no. However, most of the cities I love are small markets that fit into the same category as Winnipeg. I would love to see Winnipeg with a second chance and a chance to prove a small market can do this. I however think this is an effort to pressure Phoenix into meeting demands. I still remember the Twins baseball team telling the state to give them a new ballpark or they would relocate to Winston-Salem. It looked very real and the Twins signed a letter of intent to sell to a Winston-Salem ownership group at the Hawthorne Inn in downtown Winston-Salem in 1997. Very common in major league sports. They wanted headlines in the Twin Cities to scare the state into funding a stadium. The NHL of today isn't the NHL of the 1980's though. It's a top tier major markets major league. It's really what Bettman has worked for. Pulling teams from top media markets for small media markets hurts the league's standing in the top tier and it also creates instability.

#2 I agree and this is why I think maybe Winnipeg can do it. Still, the corporate end (suites and premium seating) is always in question and so is the TV side.

#3 It is the South and hockey isn't played at the collegiate or high school level here. Still, it is a city of transplants and the number of fans in the cheapest seats isn't as important as the number of fans in luxury suites and tables with a wait staff and a full bar. In Atlanta, these are the people who go somewhere to be seen or close a business deal and usually don't know what the score is. They also won't stay for the full game, but do pay the most of anyone there. I know of many people who love the game, but don't go to these games. They take the cheap hockey and (still expensive, but cheaper) beer night at the ECHL games. I could also point to an AHL team in Winnipeg in a large 15,000 seat facility with ticket sales of around 7,000-8,000. Great support for AHL, but not the extreme crazy we love hockey support that would fill 15,000 seats. Hershey Pennsylvania is outselling Winnipeg.

#4 It's not how large the city is. It's how large the media market is. Winnipeg is still slow growing. Quebec City is larger, but is also not large enough for a major league team.

#5 Manitoba isn't Ontario. You don't have a large collection of other metro areas nearby to draw fans from. It's Winnipeg's small market and long distance weekend fans. And you have to compete with Calgary for those fans. Not all hockey fans in the team's home city are local team fans. As I said, I like the Caps and Canes and live in Atlanta. I wouldn't pay the money for Atlanta vs. Nashville, but would to see the Hurricanes. A big problem with fast growing transplant cities. Winnipeg would have to establish itself as a winner with less money from higher-end seating. If not, you have sellouts for the most popular opposing teams among area residents (no home ice advantage) and weekend sellouts, with lower attendance the other nights. I would also expect at least two or three strong seasons, before attendance drops to that level though. All sports teams experience two or three years of "it's new" sell-out excitement.

#6 10,000 or 15,000 at whatever price doesn't matter. Can you sell a wall of luxury suites, special table seating with an upscale menu prepared by a chef and seats with valet parking? Can you sell the seats that cost in the four digits per game. This is why it's so hard for small markets to survive and these are the seats that pay the bills and pay for the stars. Any team in the league would prefer 10,000 seats at a discount and sold-out luxury seating at full price over 15,000 seat sellouts at full price and price cutting for empty luxury seating.

#7 The team may not have it, but could. Atlanta is a major international business center and corporate headquarters center. Look back at #6. These are the people who buy luxury suites for business deals with northern clients and pay for the upscale food at table in a special club section. Stabilize the team and ownership and you can bring this crowd to the arena. It's the draw of major markets. It's how you sell those expensive VIP seats and what most people complain about in professional sports today.

#8 This is why I think the team isn't serious about Winnipeg relocation. They are telling Glendale to give-up the money or the team is gone. I've seen this so many times. It's usually a large market team telling the state, city, county, etc., to give up money or they move to a smaller market and lose their prized team. I've seen a time set to vote on bonds or approve tax money pass and nothing happened and a few times the team does move and struggles more in the smaller market, before changing owners and/or begging to relocate again when the two or three years of "it's new!" are gone. This is why Bettman will do everything possible to prevent relocation from major markets.

#9 You are right, but the size of the market is seen as most important for a league trying to establish itself as a top tier major league and build fan support. Edmonton is actually a market large enough to support a major league sport (one of the six I talked about). Winnipeg is still seen as too small from the corporate side.

#10 It is what the team did in the past and the market hasn't grown much since then. Expect two or three strong seasons and then weekend sellouts or popular team sellouts and a half-empty arena for the other games. The real question isn't in how many seats are filled, but are the luxury seats filled? The luxury seats are the question of if NHL can return to Winnipeg. Sellout the luxury seats and it doesn't matter if the arena is half empty. Of course the more people, the more you can charge companies to put their name on everything (advertising). I could imagine a luxury renovation to your arena, which will reduce seating, but add more premium seating. Long term, expect the team to ask taxpayers for a new arena after a few years.

#11 and 12 It's likely enough corporate commitment to sell 50-70% of the boxes. This is where Winnipeg can prove people wrong. If the city can fill the luxury seating and have the demand to raise the prices for these seats and still sell them out. It's where small market teams usually fail and why the Jets moved.

#13 Good ownership is extremely important. Good ownership is what Atlanta needs. A big part of the Jets leaving is tied to selling luxury seats in good and bad times though.

I hope no one thinks I'm bashing Winnipeg. Winnipeg is an amazing beautiful city and I love the historic building stock, which I rank among the best in Canada. I've somewhat followed the situation in Phoenix, hoping the team would relocate to Winnipeg. I think Winnipeg will make a great market when it reaches the minimum market requirements and if the market gains a team before those requirements are met, I want to see ownership succeed financially to prove similar sized markets can support major league teams. I would love to see a team return to Winnipeg. Not ours though.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by Matthew

In response to roccerfeller:

#1 To clarify, Everything says this won't work in Winnipeg at present. Including a money losing Jets team that relocated not long ago. In the future, yes, but at present no. However, most of the cities I love are small markets that fit into the same category as Winnipeg. I would love to see Winnipeg with a second chance and a chance to prove a small market can do this. I however think this is an effort to pressure Phoenix into meeting demands. I still remember the Twins baseball team telling the state to give them a new ballpark or they would relocate to Winston-Salem. It looked very real and the Twins signed a letter of intent to sell to a Winston-Salem ownership group at the Hawthorne Inn in downtown Winston-Salem in 1997. Very common in major league sports. They wanted headlines in the Twin Cities to scare the state into funding a stadium. I also think we have seen the best support Phoenix can offer and Winnipeg can do as good or better. I'm not sure if Phoenix is an NHL market. MLB, NBA, NFL yes. NHL, no. The NHL of today isn't the NHL of the 1980's though. It's a top tier major markets major league. It's really what Bettman has worked for. Pulling teams from top media markets for small media markets hurts the league's standing in the top tier and it also creates instability.

#2 I agree and this is why I think maybe Winnipeg can do it. Still, the corporate end (suites and premium seating) is always in question and so is the TV side.

#3 It is the South and hockey isn't played at the collegiate or high school level here. Still, it is a city of transplants and the number of fans in the cheapest seats isn't as important as the number of fans in luxury suites and tables with a wait staff and a full bar. I know of many people who love the game, but don't go to these games. They take the cheap hockey and (still expensive, but cheaper) beer night at the ECHL games. I could also point to an AHL team in Winnipeg in a large facility with ticket sales of only around 7,000-8,000.

#4 It's not how large the city is. It's how large the media market is. Winnipeg is still slow growing. Quebec City is larger, but is also not large enough for a major league team.

#5 Manitoba isn't Ontario. You don't have a large collection of other metro areas nearby to draw fans from. It's Winnipeg's small market and long distance weekend fans. And you have to compete with Calgary for those fans. Not all hockey fans in the team's home city are local team fans. As I said, I like the Caps and Canes and live in Atlanta. I wouldn't pay the money for Atlanta vs. Nashville, but would to see the Hurricanes. A big problem with fast growing transplant cities. Winnipeg would have to establish itself as a winner with less money from higher-end seating. If not, you have sellouts for the most popular opposing teams among area residents (no home ice advantage) and weekend sellouts, with lower attendance the other nights. I would also expect at least two or three strong seasons, before attendance drops to that level though. All sports teams experience two or three years of "it's new" sell-out excitement.

#6 10,000 or 15,000 at whatever price doesn't matter. Can you sell a wall of luxury suites, special table seating with an upscale menu prepared by a chef and seats with valet parking? Can you sell the seats that cost in the four digits per game. This is why it's so hard for small markets to survive and these are the seats that pay the bills and pay for the stars. Any team in the league would prefer 10,000 seats at a discount and sold-out luxury seating at full price over 15,000 seat sellouts at full price and price cutting for empty luxury seating.

#7 The team may not have it, but could. Atlanta is a major international business center and corporate headquarters center. Look back at #6. These are the people who buy luxury suites for business deals with northern clients and pay for the upscale food at table in a special club section. Stabilize the team and ownership and you can bring this crowd to the arena. It's the draw of major markets. It's how you sell those expensive VIP seats and what most people complain about in professional sports today.

#8 This is why I think the team isn't serious about Winnipeg relocation. They are telling Glendale to give-up the money or the team is gone. I've seen this so many times. It's usually a large market team telling the state, city, county, etc., to give up money or they move to a smaller market and lose their prized team. I've seen a time set to vote on bonds or approve tax money pass and nothing happened and a few times the team does move and struggles more in the smaller market, before changing owners and/or begging to relocate again when the two or three years of "it's new!" are gone. This is why Bettman will do everything possible to prevent relocation from major markets.

#9 You are right, but the size of the market is seen as most important for a league trying to establish itself as a top tier major league and build fan support. Edmonton is actually a market large enough to support a major league sport (one of the six I talked about). Winnipeg is still seen as too small from the corporate side.

#10 It is what the team did in the past and the market hasn't grown much since then. Expect two or three strong seasons and then weekend sellouts or popular team sellouts and a half-empty arena for the other games. The real question isn't in how many seats are filled, but are the luxury seats filled? The luxury seats are the question of if NHL can return to Winnipeg. Sellout the luxury seats and it doesn't matter if the arena is half empty. Of course the more people, the more you can charge companies to put their name on everything (advertising). I could imagine a luxury renovation to your arena, which will reduce seating, but add more premium seating. Long term, expect the team to ask taxpayers for a new arena after a few years.

#11 and 12 It's likely enough corporate commitment to sell 50-70% of the boxes. This is where Winnipeg can prove people wrong. If the city can fill the luxury seating and have the demand to raise the prices for these seats and still sell them out. It's where small market teams usually fail and why the Jets moved.

#13 Good ownership is extremely important. Good ownership is what Atlanta needs. A big part of the Jets leaving is tied to selling luxury seats in good and bad times though.

I hope no one thinks I'm bashing Winnipeg. Winnipeg is an amazing beautiful city and I love the historic building stock, which I rank among the best in Canada. I've somewhat followed the situation in Phoenix, hoping the team would relocate to Winnipeg. I think Winnipeg will make a great market when it reaches the minimum market requirements and if the market gains a team before those requirements are met, I want to see ownership succeed financially to prove similar sized markets can support major league teams. I would love to see a team return to Winnipeg. Not ours though.

hehe good points,

here's the thing: I think you are placing far too much importance on corporate support. The reason Atlanta is losing $20MM a year, if its not because of corporate support, is because of a mix of poor mismanagement and lack of a strong fanbase.

The main reason your corporate support argument is flawed, is because the NHL is a gate driven league. Around 2/3 of the entire revenue comes from gate revenue, a majority of this, is the fanbase

Take a look at this:

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/31/...rs_317422.html

vs

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/31/...rs_318444.html

(Ottawa)

and

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/31/...rs_314229.html

(Edmonton)

These would be the closest to Winnipeg.

If you wanted to compare ATL to Toronto... http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/31/...fs_312012.html

Now, note that Winnipeg's population of 750 000 is smaller than both Edmonton and Ottawa, which are both above 1 million. That said, Winnipeg has more corporate muscle than Ottawa. If it works in Ottawa, it will work in Winnipeg. There are more head offices in Winnipeg, and Winnipeg's corporate support is often underestimated. The main reason is Ottawa is a Government town, as is Quebec City, and Winnipeg is in the "centre" of the country. Logistically, it makes more sense to plop a head office there, especially because it is a trade hub. Don't forget the only inland port in Canada is going to be here, this is a long term project, and it will yield with a lot of business muscle in the city.

You noted some discrepancies (i'm just gonna quote you here):

Everything says this won't work in Winnipeg at present

The NHL disagrees with this. The NHL has approved and given its blessing to Winnipeg's ownership group. If a potential ownership group came from Thunder Bay Ontario, do you think the NHL would approve them? Why not? Take those reasons, and apply why they do approve a location, to Winnipeg. This is a misnomer I must say.

I could also point to an AHL team in Winnipeg in a large facility with ticket sales of only around 7,000-8,000.

There are two things to note here:
First, AHL averages for the Moose are over 8000, not between 7 and 8k. The AHL league average is 3000. This means, Moose average over 267% the league's average attendance. 30 teams in the AHL like the NHL.

Second, AHL market is different, primarily comprised of families. Moose are not really too popular here. The modern NHL market, especially Canadian, is mainly young male along with older males, females, and young'ns, but primarily young adult males with disposable income. Note, this is a different demographic than the NHL market in the early 90's which was more family based.

Your points 4 & 5 are contradictory to me

It's not how large the city is

+

You don't have a large collection of other metro areas nearby to draw fans from. It's Winnipeg's small market and long distance weekend fans.

Also, here you note "Its about Media Market Size" - I disagree. LA is not in the NFL. Why? $$$ Lost. Too much $$$ lost even for the wealthiest LA owners. Atlanta's owners are bleeding money. Yes, the Jets lost money while they were here, but even with a 60 cent CDN dollar (to the Greenback) and an old arena that did not have the luxury boxes needed to generate other other 1/3 of revenues needed, it was never $130MM like the Atlanta owners, let alone over $300MM like in Phoenix. Heck from what I recall ASG purchased the Thrashers for $80MM in 2004...since then, they have lost 50% more than what they originally spent. Also, consider in my LA example that NFL is more dependent on broadcasting and media than the NHL is, and LA is second largest media market in the US (I know the stadium is also an issue, as was fan support..in the end it boiled down to $$)

Corporate support is clearly not the answer

10,000 or 15,000 at whatever price doesn't matter

Ohhhh yes it matters. NHL is gate driven. When 2/3 of your revenue comes from the gate, it matters VERY much. NHL isn't like the NFL, which gets much of its revenue from broadcasting, NHL teams are very gate driven. The crux of this is butts in seats for a solid price. Its why Toronto Maple Leafs make more in Gate Revenue alone each year than franchises like the Thrashers or TB Lightning costs owners to purchase...or will cost Mr Hulsizer to dip into the Yotes (He's covering what...$70MM between himself & investors?). Its why free tickets or 2 for 1 deals are the exact opposite of good business.

Your point #7, I agree...ATL could have it. But right now the team is in such a mess, that its not gonna get fixed before next season. One of ASG owners was on record last week saying they "simply cannot afford to lose another $20MM" -- those quotes are in this thread

I too don't think that the Coyotes will relocate here, but they were definitely serious about a relocation. I addressed this a few pages back, regarding the bona fide offer made by TNSE (Winnipeg's MTS Centre/Moose ownership group). Bona Fide is "in good faith" meaning it was on NHL's desk, ready to go, just not cashed in.

I don't disagree with your #9, but you underestimate Winnipeg's market capability, and are focusing too much on the overall market size. Supply & demand is the business model for NHL in Canada, and here demand outstrips supply. Only Ottawa is currently having issues with this, but that's another story - they built a waaaaay too big arena.

For your #10, you are entirely right to question long-term support. We wont know this until we are ourselves 5 seasons deep in the NHL.

Ownership is the key, and TNSE is luckily the ideal ownership group - they run a world class arena business, one of the busiest venues in Canada (the busiest without an NHL team), they have other methods of revenues planned (pubs, multiplex for community, hotel, etc...) that will supplement the NHL team, and they have people who are really, really, really passionate about hockey. NHL will work wonders in Winnipeg.

Keep in mind, the hockey market here is realistically around, conservative estimate, 100-150k people. TV viewership will be huge, estimated around 100-115k people when settled off.

These are thing that are the very fabric of survival for a franchise, and ownership aside, the main reason many southern teams struggle so much.

I still maintain Atlanta is a more desirable spot than Phoenix to have a team in, and I believe you have more hardcore hockey fans...

but one can't ignore 6000 household viewership...one cannot ignore fan interest lacks in culture, one cant ignore the corporate support is still not enough to prevent $20MM in losses...a healthy team breaks even

Atlanta is a trouble market regarding NHL, and this I attribute a great deal to your ownership there, but also its twice as hard to market the product when not only ownership is slacking but the general populace is ignorant to hockey; fanbase + TV market plays a huge role. Not much point in being a big media market if you only got only 6000 viewers, you know?

http://thehockeysweater.ca/2011/02/0...retty-picture/

The future isn't looking to hot for the Thrashers. I wish you guys well, no matter what happens, we don't have control over what will happen.

If only it were a perfect world and we just expanded to Winnipeg & QC eh?

I am not taking you as Winnipeg bashing at all so don't worry about it.

[Matthew]

Maybe I am (placing too much importance on corporate support) and it will work in Winnipeg? A metro below 1 million, less personal income, small TV market and not enough corporate support are the major reasons I questioned it. According to the links you provided, gate receipts appear to be only 33% of Atlanta's team revenue? The Rangers are also around 33%. I guess the remaining amount is corporate support, TV and advertising, which is dependent on population and how powerful a corporate headquarters market the city is. Smaller market teams are surviving with higher dependence on gate receipts though. Your city will need the "wealth" to pay the higher ticket costs and consistent sellouts though. This (less corporate support) would explain the high ticket prices in smaller markets. Edmonton is still almost twice as large as Winnipeg and is an unquestionable major league market. Edmonton's personal income is $49.93 billion (U.S. Dollars) and Ottawa is $54.18 billion (U.S.). Personal income in Winnipeg is only $26.55 billion (U.S. Dollars). Winnipeg would need around $37 billion (U.S.) to comfortably support a team, according to Bizjournals research. I still think personal income (wealth) is in question. When Winnipeg reaches 1 million metro population, I think it will become an excellent NHL market without any doubts.

Winnipeg's metro was last counted at 694,668 and is estimated at 713,000 today. Ottawa is almost twice as large with a growth rate two or three times higher in a more populated area. There is a difference between city size and metro size and TV market size. It's not how large your city is. It's how large your market area is. The NFL does want to return to LA and no NFL in the second largest media market is a big issue for them. LA must have the stadium and right ownership first and a team is a sure thing. Sure enough for the NFL to consider expansion to do so. Not many top tier leagues are willing to expand and some want to contract, so they are desperate to add a team in LA.

Arizona is very conservative and taxpayer money is not a sure thing. The Coyotes could move to Winnipeg with Arizona conservatives celebrating. Speaking of sure things, the deal to bring MLB to Winston-Salem looked almost like a done deal. A contract to sell the team, stadium drawings, pre-approval to relocate and in the end the owner had no intention of selling or relocating. He wanted headlines and pressure for tax money. I'm not saying it won't happen, but I always question this when I see it.

Southern teams struggle because our lakes don't freeze and few people play hockey. Hockey (true ice hockey) requires joining a league to play and an investment to learn the game. No one can drop a puck on a frozen lake and play. You can't create a frozen surface to play on in your backyard on a cold 58F/14C day in January. You can toss the football around, play backyard soccer, shoot some hoops in the driveway and learn the basics of baseball in the backyard. You can't do that with hockey here. We play summer sports. Right now, birds are singing and flowers are growing in warm 75F/24C weather. Perfect for playing any sport except hockey.

I feel like I'm raining on the parade, so lets go back to talking about the excitement of the NHL returning to Winnipeg. If the NHL said so, then Winnipeg must be ready for another team. I'm sure they asked the same questions, looked at similar numbers and said it works. The market size and issues related to it are interesting though.

[rypinion]

Just about NFL Re: Los Angeles - I've read a few articles saying that to the NFL getting a team in LA is not important, since they've maxed out TV revenue out there anyways. They have nothing to gain.