Black Space, White Blindness

[cannedairspray]

Why wouldn't that be normal? It's 2018, not 3018. By then it'll be people self segregating based on planetary origins, instead of continental.

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by cannedairspray

Why wouldn't that be normal? It's 2018, not 3018. By then it'll be people self segregating based on planetary origins, instead of continental.

Its not normal in Toronto.

Regardless, I don't think it should be.

I can't imagine contemplating my place of residence based on the skin colour of my neighbours. Ugh.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

That people simply don't feel welcome in certain areas, because of the colour of their skin.

That simply should not be so, in 2018, in the developed world. (or ideally anywhere else)

Originally Posted by cannedairspray

Why wouldn't that be normal? It's 2018, not 3018. By then it'll be people self segregating based on planetary origins, instead of continental.

The question is how much of it is self-segregating (preferring to be with one's ethnic, cultural or racial group) vs. segregating due to not feeling welcome in certain areas.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

Its not normal in Toronto.

Regardless, I don't think it should be.

I can't imagine contemplating my place of residence based on the skin colour of my neighbours. Ugh.

Toronto still has racial clustering, though Black Torontonians aren't necessarily that segregated compared to US cities.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

Its not normal in Toronto.

Regardless, I don't think it should be.

I can't imagine contemplating my place of residence based on the skin colour of my neighbours. Ugh.

People do self-segregate; that's what "white flight" was/is, after all.

And, it doesn't necessarily have to be because of skin color; it could be cultural, too. To stereotype, not all whites are the same; in the US, there were/are the staid, reserved WASPs and the fun-loving/drink-loving/festival-loving Catholics.

I don't know about the history of black people in Canada, but African-Americans definitely have their own culture and dialect, and a very influential one at that. I'm almost used to saying "Where do you stay at?" when I'm asking someone "Where do you live?"

And here's a racial dot map of Toronto. Does it look highly integrated to you?

http://neoformix.com/Projects/DotMap...ntoVisMin.html

Edit: Ah, I see Capsicum beat me to the map, and it looks better than the one I posted.

[dc_denizen]

Are you kidding northern light, Toronto is unbelievably segregated.

Look at the Chinese/south Indian/phillipino clusters on that map and deny it.

Although I guess his point was that Toronto white people are extra special.

[Capsicum]

On the Toronto map, it actually looks like both white and black Torontonians are less clustered than the Asian groups who have more of a presence in solid blocks.

[Capsicum]

It's almost kind of interesting the way that Chinese Torontonians (pink dots on the map) really follow the boundaries of city blocks in terms of residential patterns much more than the other groups it seems.

You can see many cases where Chinese neighbourhoods start and end with straight line boundaries along certain roads -- I wonder why that is, versus other groups?

[westak]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

as goat314 has mentioned st. louis has this, with a much higher metropolitan black population than cleveland (which was mentioned for some reason).

pretty sure this is the case in big-metro texas, too.

Why wouldn't Cleveland be mentioned, it's black population would be on par with St. Louis if not larger when adding Akron.

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

It's almost kind of interesting the way that Chinese Torontonians (pink dots on the map) really follow the boundaries of city blocks in terms of residential patterns much more than the other groups it seems.

You can see many cases where Chinese neighbourhoods start and end with straight line boundaries along certain roads -- I wonder why that is, versus other groups?

I think linguistic issues are a big factor, particularly for those who bring aging parents to Canada who may not speak English or at least not very well.

That said, as I noted in another post, it not the cultural monolith that map would have you think.

I've been in those areas in North Scarborough that are solid pink. I can tell you that Bridletown, Agincourt, etc are far from being a cultural monolith.

[cannedairspray]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

Its not normal in Toronto.

Regardless, I don't think it should be.

I can't imagine contemplating my place of residence based on the skin colour of my neighbours. Ugh.

Well, apparently it is normal in Toronto. Would you contemplate the place if your residence based on the culture of your neighbors.

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by cannedairspray

Well, apparently it is normal in Toronto. Would you contemplate the place if your residence based on the culture of your neighbors.

Again, I'm going to tell you that its not.

I've addressed the map above, beyond that I offer that my immediate neighbours of every different hue of the rainbow.

I can think of a Filipino family two doors down, a black family around the corner, east and south Asians at the dog park every day, and a plenty of white folks too.

I find variation of that mix across the City with some areas skewing a bit more to one that the other. But no clear segregation.

I can't think of a neighbourhood that I would feel unwelcome in, and I would like to think the same holds true for anyone else in Toronto area.

[dc_denizen]

And American cities had that kind of diversity 60 or 100 years ago when y’all were 100% Anglo Saxon Protestant brits.

I’m guessing that the majority of Americans have also lived in diverse areas like you describe. They are just less boastful and self congratulatory then ontarians are about it.

[FtGreeneNY]

Originally Posted by JAYNYC

It's actually not true to infer that any U.S. city with a significant Black population also has a sizable Black middle class or upper middle class community.

My definition of 'significant' would be somewhere over 15-20%. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by 'best examples' and you could define what you mean by that.

Anyway, you first have to ask what the income spread is for African-Americans in the US. In general, about 1/3 of African-Americans can be classified as 'middle class.'

You then have to ask if we can assume that that income spread is fairly regular across US cities. The answer would be 'mostly yes.' Of course there are exceptions where some cities seem to generate far better or far lower than average levels of Black Middle Class performance for a variety of reasons.

But again, any city with a significant Black population generally has a significant Black professional class, which would include both middle and upper class people. And this assertion: "with the exception of Atlanta and DC the midwest probably has the country's best examples of black middle class and upper middle class communities" unless you're defining it in a very particular way just seems to speak to a lack of knowledge about the data across cities or a lack of experience in many cities.

FYI, here's an article from over a decade ago about Black income in Queens surpassing that of White income: https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/n.../01census.html.

I grew up in (and had family in different) middle class Black neighborhoods in Philly. My current neighborhood in Brooklyn was solidly Black middle and upper middle class until the last decade when Whites became the majority (from 20% White to 40% White b/w 2000 and 2010, and over 50% by 2016).

However, though many of those Whites may have more wealth (I'm President of my Coop Board, so I rely not only on Census data, but also more granular data from folks buying apartments), they aren't earning more than the Blacks they're replacing.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by cannedairspray

Well, apparently it is normal in Toronto. Would you contemplate the place if your residence based on the culture of your neighbors.

Skin color isn't culture though.

If I had neighbours of difference in races, who did not differ in any vastly different culture, socio-economic status, social norms, from me aside from physical appearance, I wouldn't care.

People conflate one for the other.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

And American cities had that kind of diversity 60 or 100 years ago when y’all were 100% Anglo Saxon Protestant brits.

I’m guessing that the majority of Americans have also lived in diverse areas like you describe. They are just less boastful and self congratulatory then ontarians are about it.

There probably weren't many mixed White, Black and Asian neighborhoods, like Northern Light described, in either country 60 or 100 years ago in either the US or Canada.

Most of the diversity was still European immigrant diversity and native-born Black Americans who were still segregated, in the US, not a mix of races.

[Capsicum]

A rare example of a racially diverse mix of kids in Canada in earlier days -- white, black, Asian in Salt Spring Island, BC, in the late 1920s.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...lack-1.3433086

https://saltspringarchives.com/history.htm

It was really local-scale, but had diversity already in the late 1800s and 1900s.

"By 1895, the population was quite multicultural as the following analysis by the island's Anglican minister indicates:

The present population of the island is estimated to be 450. A large number of different nationalities are represented. There are approximately, old and young, 160 English (or Canadians), 50 Scotch, 20 Irish, 22 Portuguese, 13 Swedes, 4 Germans, 2 Norwegians, 34 Americans, 90 Halfbreeds, 40 Colored, or partly colored people, 6 Sandwich Islanders [Hawaiians], 10 Japanese, also 1 Egyptian, 2 Greeks, 1 Patagonian."

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

And American cities had that kind of diversity 60 or 100 years ago when y’all were 100% Anglo Saxon Protestant brits.

I’m guessing that the majority of Americans have also lived in diverse areas like you describe. They are just less boastful and self congratulatory then ontarians are about it.

Go back and read my post.

Really.

I want you to quote my 'boast' or 'self congratulation'.

You can't. There was none.

It was a simple statement of fact. "Its not normal in Toronto"

That's it. That's all.

No boosterism to be found.

Simply my every day life experience in commenting on a thread.

I didn't put any other city or poster down.

You did.

[Urbanguy]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

A rare example of a racially diverse mix of kids in Canada in earlier days -- white, black, Asian in Salt Spring Island, BC, in the late 1920s.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...lack-1.3433086

https://saltspringarchives.com/history.htm

It was really local-scale, but had diversity already in the late 1800s and 1900s.

"By 1895, the population was quite multicultural as the following analysis by the island's Anglican minister indicates:

The present population of the island is estimated to be 450. A large number of different nationalities are represented. There are approximately, old and young, 160 English (or Canadians), 50 Scotch, 20 Irish, 22 Portuguese, 13 Swedes, 4 Germans, 2 Norwegians, 34 Americans, 90 Halfbreeds, 40 Colored, or partly colored people, 6 Sandwich Islanders [Hawaiians], 10 Japanese, also 1 Egyptian, 2 Greeks, 1 Patagonian."

It was similar in Hawaii (at a larger scale) starting in the late 1700s when the first Chinese (1789), Portuguese, Cape Verdeans, Americans & other Europeans started to settle in the islands.

By 1910 the Ethnic & Racial Composition was:

Hawaii 1910
Japanese 79,675
Hawaiian 26,041
Portuguese 22,301
Chinese 21,674
Other Caucasian/European 14,867
Mixed Races 12,506
Puerto Rican 4,890
Korean 4,533
Filipino 2,361
Spaniard 1,990
Black 695 *Many Cape Verdean's were often categorized with Portuguese
Other Races 376
Total 191,909
*Hawaii was just a Territory at the time, starting in 1900 right before Puerto Rico.

If categorized by Race similar to the way the US Census does it now it would have looked like this:

Hawaii 1910
Asian 108,243 56.4%
White (non-Hispanic) 37,168 19.4%
Native Hawaiian 26,041 13.6%
Mixed Races 12,506 6.5%
Hispanic or Latino 6,880 3.6%
Black 695 0.4%
Other Races and Ethnicities 376 0.2%
Total 191,909
Foreign-born: 93,752 48.9%

In comparison the United States looked like this in 1910:

USA 1910
White 81,731,957 88.90%
Black 9,827,763 10.70%
Native American 265,683 0.30%
Asian 146,863 0.20%
Mixed Races N/A
Other Races and Ethnicities N/A
Total Population: 91,972,266


Hawaii was WAY ahead of its time back then.

The foreign-born was also quite diverse back then too.

Hawaii
Foreign-born 1910
Japan 59,800
China 14,486
Portugal 7,585
United States 5,688*Domestic not considered part of foreign-born
Korea 4,172
Puerto Rico 3,510*Domestic not considered part of foreign-born
Philippines 2,372*Domestic not considered part of foreign-born back then
Spain 1,622
Russia 1,077
Atlantic Islands (Cape Verde) 913
Germany 905
England 629
Scotland 532
Canada 354
Ireland 234
Pacific Islands 216
Norway 200
Austria 170
Australia 150
Other US places (Alaska, Guam, at sea) 104*Domestic not considered part of foreign-born
Sweden 103
France 76
Denmark 57
South America 47
Cuba and other West Indies 39
Italy 36
India 34
Greece 31
Other foreign countries: 284
Foreign-born: 93,752
Total Population: 191,909

*In 1910 for the US, only 13% were not born in Europe

In 1900 main places of birth:

Foreign-born 1900 *US not included in total foreign born, Hawaii just became a Territory in 1900
Japan 56,234
China 21,741
Portugal 6,512
United States 4,238
Atlantic Islands (Cape Verde) 1,156
Germany 1,154
England 739
Pacific Islands 593
Scotland 427
Canada 351
Austria 225
Ireland 225
Spain 202
Norway 198
Sweden 140
Australia 130
Russia 130
Other US places (Alaska, Guam, at sea) 52
Other foreign countries: 623
Foreign-born: 90,780
Total Population: 154,001
*1900 was the first year that immigrants from Puerto Rico started to migrate to Hawaii, 1906 for immigrants from the Philippines, Russians in 1804, British in 1778, African Americans in 1810, Mexican Vaqueros in 1833, I-Kiribati & Banaban's in 1860, Japanese in 1868, Mainland Portugal 1877/78 (Azores, Madeira in 1789), Cape Verdeans (West Africa/East Atlantic) in 1880, Norwegians & Swedes in 1880, Germans in 1881, Ukrainians in 1897, Polish started around 1897-1899, Spaniards in 1898, Okinawan's in 1900, Austrians, Scotts, Italians in late 1800s - early 1900s, Koreans in 1906, etc.

Although, many places 60 - 100 years ago on the US Mainland were primarily Black & White there were also a lot of Latinos (they were often lumped in with White early on) and Asians along the West Coast.

The US is a lot larger and diverse than many outsiders realize. There are so many differences between each region that many stereotypes often held by outsiders do not realize cannot be applied to every location.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by JManc

I never wondered about this. I've known my entire adult life that there are shit loads of middle-class blacks and they have to live somewhere. Perhaps it's more of a mystery in areas whose economies have seen better days are a struggle no matter the race but here in Houston, there is a large and thriving black middle class.

Is Riverside one of the areas, or is it black upper class? I've driven through there (pretty close to the Med Center).