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  #721  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 3:14 PM
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that's pretty clearly 1094 to TOR from upper wacker. this will be fun to watch.
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  #722  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Zapatan View Post
Maybe level 93 is the roof, it's pointing to the top.

Also, what's the sub whacker and upper whacker thing? If this is measured from 50 feet underground than the roof is actually 1094 feet.
wacker is a double-decked street (actually tripled-deck at this particular spot). lower wacker is not technically underground. upper wacker is merely elevated above it. per CTBUH rules, the "base" of a building is determined to be at the lowest open air entrance to a building, which in the case of this project will be at the lower wacker level. so until we get better info, 1,144' is the figure to go with.

read kamin's trib article again if you still don't understand.
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  #723  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bcp View Post
that's pretty clearly 1094 to TOR from upper wacker. this will be fun to watch.
It won't be measured from upper Wacker, it will be measured from grade since there will be entrances for residents at park level. This is very similar to the boost Aqua got when they decided to start measuring from lowest entrance instead of "main" entrance.
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  #724  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 3:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Zapatan View Post
Maybe level 93 is the roof, it's pointing to the top.

Also, what's the sub whacker and upper whacker thing? If this is measured from 50 feet underground than the roof is actually 1094 feet.
Lower Wacker isn't underground. Upper wacker is the top platform in the image below. This picture is taken on the road that will go through the center of the building.

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  #725  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 3:58 PM
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^There's 'Upper Wacker', 'Lower Wacker' and 'Lower lower Wacker.'

Here's a screenshot image from AJ's article on Curbed regarding the new Wanda Vista tower:



Notice the cluster of light-blue tower footprints on the upper right (NE corner) of Lakeshore East (plus the one that's attached to the Shoreham or Tides or whatever the Hell that building is called) - Looks like this will be the last Phase of residential tower on this development (with the exception of parcel 'O') - don't think anything has been designed for any of those other lots, though......?

What I think is funny how Hudson Yards gets so much press, but I honestly feel that Lakeshore East is just as massive, in terms of both capital expenditure as well as new residential and hotel units, that it's a shame LE hasn't received nearly as much publicity.
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  #726  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sentinel View Post
Notice the cluster of light-blue tower footprints on the upper right (NE corner) of Lakeshore East (plus the one that's attached to the Shoreham or Tides or whatever the Hell that building is called) - Looks like this will be the last Phase of residential tower on this development (with the exception of parcel 'O') - don't think anything has been designed for any of those other lots, though......?
That's kind of amusing, since they show Site O as a just a box even though there's been designs released already, and there's been no firm plans unveiled for the NE corner.
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  #727  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 4:25 PM
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? Apologies if I wasn't clear, as I meant to say that all of the light-blue footprints were indicative of projects that haven't been approved yet, site 'O' included. I think the NE cluster are projects that haven't even been designed yet, or released to the public.
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  #728  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Yes, the glass varies in efficiency based upon the intensity of solar heat gain relative to the position of the floor on each frustum.
What does this mean? The glass changes color according to internal heat or the glass is actually various shades?
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  #729  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 5:26 PM
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What does this mean? The glass changes color according to internal heat or the glass is actually various shades?
The reflectivity of the panels depending on positioning would change. Like with Aqua, some panes are more reflective than not.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickeNES View Post
That's kind of amusing, since they show Site O as a just a box even though there's been designs released already, and there's been no firm plans unveiled for the NE corner.
Rendering were "leaked/released" regarding Site O several months back. No, nothing about the NE corner is known. Just like the rest of this development, renderings have been released piecemeal depending upon what parcel was being developed at the time.

I will say though, that when the NE corner is developed, expect something something spectacular. I had a nice conversation with Joel Carlins last night and he said that it's always been the plan that they wanted to go out with a bang regarding the last site. They want to make a statement at that location. I told him that he should have a conversation with Related so that there's an agreement that both sides of the river at LSD, create a gateway into the city architecturally speaking; bold, tall and inspiring...
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Last edited by BVictor1; Apr 14, 2015 at 5:39 PM.
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  #730  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
The most important aspect of this project from an urban planning persepective is how it will connect all the disjointed portions of LSE together. They plan on not only linking the upper levels for pedestrians, but also linking Harbor Drive to Wacker with a new roadway that passes through the building on the level above harbor drive (creating an upper Field drive) thus completing a loop from Upper Wacker to Upper Randolph. That's going to do wonders for the connectivity of this area.

There is also going to be a fantastic new tunnel through lower Field drive and lower Wacker that will link the riverwalk and park together. Gang flashed some pretty cool concepts for this space on the scene including a curved stainless steel funnel like entrance drawing people in from LSE Park.
^ I like the current iteration much more than the previous one, but these aspects as you mention here really excite me. They will go a long way from making LSE seem like an isolated cul-de-sac, and actually connect this district to the city around it, both for autos and pedestrians. Heck, you may even be able to run buses through this new route
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  #731  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 10:04 PM
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It's not that it's TOO weird, it's that it is TOO arbitrary and simplistic...

as CHI -21c noted, it would be kinda hard to fuck up a tower with this diagram and these proportions, but based on what we've seen so far, Gang found a way to do it...
What are your thoughts on the revised proposal? I am genuinely interested.

Do you think this solved the prior issues? What would you suggest as improvements?
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  #732  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2015, 5:25 AM
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FUCK. YES.

What a spectacular looking building. I think I'm into the street smaller buildings along Wacker the most. The refined look of the towers is really nice too. This is all really nice looking.


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  #733  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2015, 1:31 PM
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What are your thoughts on the revised proposal? I am genuinely interested.

Do you think this solved the prior issues? What would you suggest as improvements?
Yes, it's a significant improvement but I still have serious issues.

With the addition of the '2nd vocabulary' as depicted in the restaurant 'box' and the ballroom 'bustle' as a tool to transition to the street and the eastern neighbor, it would almost seem that Jeanne is a fan of this thread... (although it appears the eastern 'bustle' still has vestiges of the frustum slope... I wish it was just a simple box like the one over the road)

I appreciate the simplification of the glazing treatment and the elimination of the balconies on the primary facades...

they have also appeared to have eliminated the 'dead cat' wedges that existed between wanda, gems to the west, and the existing building to the east...

from an urban planning standpoint, as far as connectivity to the rest of LSE, it's excellent, and the landscape designers have suggested a pretty sweet contribution...

my criticism is still on what generated the overall 'frustum', or should I say 'chocolate bar' form, now somewhat complicated by the 'glazing gradation', and Gang's explanations just makes it worse...

it doesn't reflect a structural solution (in fact, it just made the prior structural solution so expensive, it had to be tossed)

it doesn't focus views to the sky and the river (the angles now are slight, and even more importantly, ALL of the glazing is angled slightly up, even on the supposed downward facing facades!)

it doesn't contribute to any greening effect due to the shallowness of the frustums and again, the fact that ALL of the glazing is angled slightly up and therefore exacerbating heat gain...

the explanation of the 'stepping down' of the volumes to the lake I also find suspicious and question why that is even desirable to repeat if, in fact, it exists... certainly it won't exist for long when future tall towers are built at the Spire site and the NE corner of LSE... it probably had more to do with orientating the two large roof terraces toward the lake, which is fine, just admit it...

and finally, I don't buy the 'glazing gradation' explanation... size of the floor plates are irrelevant to heat gain when said floors are broken up into a variety of rooms... it is simply decoration and an attempt at an 'Aqua' effect and should be identified as such... it is a matter of opinion on whether that decoration is successful or not...

so, it comes down to whether we think all of the effort and expense of creating the frustums is worth it over more conventional volumes... I think we can agree that the experience of being in the volumes at this point in the design would be more or less the same whether these forms were flat sided or not...

for example, all of that frustum generated expense, design, planning, construction, etc. could have been put toward, I don't know, developing a structural exoskeleton for the east and west towers that supported the lowest tower in the middle... anyway, there would be infinite ways to create unique form that inherently reflected form and function (see Gang's mentor, Rem Koolhas and most of his work)

Last edited by pilsenarch; Apr 15, 2015 at 1:43 PM.
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  #734  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2015, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
ALL of the glazing is angled slightly up, even on the supposed downward facing facades!)
huh? how is the glazing on the downward facing frustums now angled slightly upwards?

please explain, because that's not what i's seeing in the new renderings released.

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  #735  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2015, 1:52 PM
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I thought I also remembered plans about improving the riverwalk in front of the site. It is terrible right now...just looking at the lower Wacker roadways. I know the Hyatt also proposed something a while ago as well.

Who can remember?
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  #736  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2015, 2:03 PM
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^^ steely, there was a close up at the presentation showing this, but you can also see it in the image you posted... at each floor there is a shadow line from the glazing directly above being angled outward at the bottom so the glazing is tilting up... it appears to be the same detail on every floor...
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  #737  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2015, 2:04 PM
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^i think that was a Daley proposal. I'd love to see the beaux arts structure extend all the way to LSD bridge.
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  #738  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2015, 2:05 PM
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^Yeah, a lot of her work seems to be coming up with elaborate ways to justify novelty. It's like watching a primitive chieftain invent a creation myth. Perhaps you've heard her (or her lieutenants) earnestly offer the supposed rationale for Aqua that it was about enhancing the views from various units. Really? By changing the view angle from the balcony by a fraction of a degree that becomes irrelevant if the observer is a few inches taller or shorter?
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  #739  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2015, 2:14 PM
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yes, Mr. D., the Aqua explanation was somewhat laughable... it is the one thing that makes that building, and they should have said they simply did it because they could...
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  #740  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2015, 2:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
^Yeah, a lot of her work seems to be coming up with elaborate ways to justify novelty. It's like watching a primitive chieftain invent a creation myth. Perhaps you've heard her (or her lieutenants) earnestly offer the supposed rationale for Aqua that it was about enhancing the views from various units. Really? By changing the view angle from the balcony by a fraction of a degree that becomes irrelevant if the observer is a few inches taller or shorter?
Well, considering that all form of visual art including architectural design provide some amount of novelty, not really sure what your argument is here. Brand new 3-4 story townhouses throughout the City or even your average new construction mid-rise, with nary a sign of innovation in terms of material, programmatic concern, etc, are not architecture, they're buildings.

This proposal however is not just a building, because it strives to present a case for something previously unseen, unique and untried. And even if it's central argument may not be completely compelling in the eyes of some, the attempt to provide a new language is a success in it's own right. Also, I think it's sometimes too early to tell how successful a design may be, not just in the preliminary design phase, but even after a project has been constructed. I think it takes a number of years, even an entire generation to decide whether or not an architectural design transcends itself and becomes symbolic of something more than it's collective parts.
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