Measuring the size of diasporas

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Docere

Yeah, I'm not so convinced that Irish Catholics went to Montreal to avoid Toronto.

It's very well documented. Many went to Toronto, but the number that opted for Montreal was larger. The Protestant - Catholic divide was very real back then.

What I always find astonishing about the Canadian public school system is how the history one is taught is so dependent on what region you live in. Growing up in Nova Scotia we spent a month on the War of 1812. Almost all history pertained to the Maritimes, New England, and the burning of the White House. There was hardly any mention of Upper Canada (Ontario) whatsover. In Ontario it's the complete opposite with coverage of Ontario, Great Lakes states, the burning of the White House, and practically no mention of the Maritimes. When I visited the 'Canadian' Museum of Civilization in Ottawa their depiction of the War of 1812 was quite predictably the Ontario version.

It's only after living in various regions of Canada that one gets a clearer view of Canadian history rather than the one tailored for local ears. I'm not surprised one iota that Torontonian don't know that Irish Catholics flocked to Montreal to avoid discrimination in Toronto. The history taught in Ontario is very Ontario centric, with mention of Quebec, and an almost tone deaf reaction to the rest of the country. Every region of Canada does this but one shouldn't be fooled into thinking what one was taught is a good representation of what actually happened.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by isaidso

It's very well documented. Many went to Toronto, but the number that opted for Montreal is much larger. The Protestant - Catholic divide was very real back then.

If it's "very well documented" please provide a source.

In fact more serious historians have said neither the "Belfast model" or "Boston model" really applied to Toronto Irish. See Mark McGowan or Donald Akenson.

[Docere]

Irish-born population, 1861:

Montreal 14,179 15.7%
Toronto 12,441 27.7%

Montreal was about twice as big as Toronto then, so it's not surprising that it had more Irish immigrants.

[Yuri]

São Paulo fancies itself as the largest Italian city in the world (depending the way you define metro Milan, it's not true); largest Lebanese city in the world (depending the way you define metro Beirut) and the largest Japanese city in the world outside Japan (several times more than the next contender, Honolulu, Los Angeles, San Francisco or Londrina, Brazil).

[Laceoflight]

Originally Posted by isaidso

It's only after living in various regions of Canada that one gets a clearer view of Canadian history rather than the one tailored for local ears. I'm not surprised one iota that Torontonian don't know that Irish Catholics flocked to Montreal to avoid discrimination in Toronto. The history taught in Ontario is very Ontario centric, with mention of Quebec, and an almost tone deaf reaction to the rest of the country. Every region of Canada does this but one shouldn't be fooled into thinking what one was taught is a good representation of what actually happened.

What's interesting about the Irish diaspora in Canada, is that not only did they flee discrimination in Upper Canada (Ontario), but being catholic in Montreal at that time wasn't the best option either. In fact, a significant portion of the Irish newcomers blended, even assimilated, with the French catholic population of Lower Canada, where they were welcomed. They settled in the rural areas of Bas-Canada. An entire swath of territory, known today as les Bois-Francs, in Centre-du-Québec, was cleared by them. Well-established French-speaking families are Irish (think of the Nelligans, Flynns, Handfields, Cannons, Johnsons, Nelsons, Ryans, D'Arcy and McGees, Travers, etc.). Also, most of the Irish children whose parents unfortunately died in quarantine, on Grosse Île, were raised by French canadian families. Hence, most of French-speaking Québécois have Irish blood today, too.

[Crawford]

Wasn't Anglo Montreal heavily WASP? Why would Irish avoid Toronto in favor of Montreal because of Toronto's former WASP-ness?

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Wasn't Anglo Montreal heavily WASP? Why would Irish avoid Toronto in favor of Montreal because of Toronto's former WASP-ness?

In the 1840s and 1850s? Of course!

Anyway, one can assert "the Irish avoided Toronto" but the stats say otherwise.

[Docere]

Today, of course Toronto has notably sizable Indian, Pakistani and Sri Lankan, Chinese, Italian, Portuguese and West Indian communities.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Laceoflight

What's interesting about the Irish diaspora in Canada, is that not only did they flee discrimination in Upper Canada (Ontario), but being catholic in Montreal at that time wasn't the best option either. In fact, a significant portion of the Irish newcomers blended, even assimilated, with the French catholic population of Lower Canada, where they were welcomed. They settled in the rural areas of Bas-Canada. An entire swath of territory, known today as les Bois-Francs, in Centre-du-Québec, was cleared by them. Well-established French-speaking families are Irish (think of the Nelligans, Flynns, Handfields, Cannons, Johnsons, Nelsons, Ryans, D'Arcy and McGees, Travers, etc.). Also, most of the Irish children whose parents unfortunately died in quarantine, on Grosse Île, were raised by French canadian families. Hence, most of French-speaking Québécois have Irish blood today, too.

And in Ontario, mixed Irish Catholic/Franco-Ontarian is very common.

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Wasn't Anglo Montreal heavily WASP? Why would Irish avoid Toronto in favor of Montreal because of Toronto's former WASP-ness?

Yes, part of the lore around here tied to Irish immigration is also to do with intense fighting between the Catholics and the Orangemen. My dad used to tell me stories of how his dad had witnessed big fights during St Patrick's day parades.
But also, the Irish were already present before the famine years since the St Patrick Society was founded in the 1820's. There was also a sizeable contingent of both German and Irish soldiers in the French Army before the fall of Quebec, many of whom settled here. In the years leading to emancipation laws in the British realm, special interest groups like the St Patrick Society happened on the scene and at the behest of the Irish, the St-Jean Baptiste Society was founded to defend Nationalist issues on behalf of their French counterparts.

[Docere]

Today of course a good share of Montreal Island anglos are second and third generation Italians and Jews. English ancestry is pretty uncommon in Montreal nowadays.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

Today of course a good share of Montreal Island anglos are second and third generation Italians and Jews. English ancestry is pretty uncommon in Montreal nowadays.

Indeed.

Here is the board of trustees for Montreal's English language school board.

http://www.emsb.qc.ca/emsb_en/govern...missioners.asp

I count 8 Italian names, 1 Armenian, 3 Jewish, 1 Greek and 2 French Canadian names. No Smiths and no Wilsons to be found.

Ironically, a good chunk of the population in Montreal (and even moreso across Quebec) with ancestry from the British Isles are actually native French speakers today.

[montréaliste]

Vos veaux sont après chier

You just reminded me why I would rather measure the size of diasporas than diapers.

[Crawford]

NY Times has a profile of Breezy Point, Queens, which is 54% Irish, supposedly the highest percentage in the U.S.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/24/r...ane-sandy.html

[RST500]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I doubt it, except among baby-making Mennonites and the like, assuming they're German.

There has probably been an increase in German expats in the U.S. in recent years, especially related to the auto industry (upscale Detroit suburbs have a very visible German expat contingent, which didn't exist 20 years ago), but "normal" German immigration ended after WW2 (and even that was just German refugees from Russia and E. Europe).

Yiddish, a German dialect, is almost certainly growing, though, because it's spoken by Hasidic Jews (who have large families) but that has nothing really to do with Germans or Germany.

Also the wealthy suburbs of Northern San Diego and SFs wealthy East Bay Suburbs.