HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 3:05 AM
Shawn Shawn is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 5,941
Osaka >> Kobe/Sakae
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 3:21 AM
ardecila's Avatar
ardecila ardecila is offline
TL;DR
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: the city o'wind
Posts: 16,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxtex View Post
new orleans and baton rouge??? port of south louisianna is the busiest port by tonnage in the western hemisphere. i think that alone and it "sufficiency" global city status would be enough. if this were a city playoff they would be a wild card team.
Except the "port" of South Louisiana actually describes the entire riverfront between Baton Rouge and the Gulf, so it's not centralized in New Orleans. The port of New Orleans is a separate thing administratively and handles much less cargo - it is focused on containers and consumables (coffee, produce, etc).

I guess it's similar enough to discuss, but Baton Rouge is certainly not the top dog in the region by any measure. New Orleans has more population, a far stronger cultural presence, and far greater status within the US and internationally. Baton Rouge only tops in new housing starts, basically. It's an under-performing Sunbelt city like Jacksonville or Mobile.
__________________
la forme d'une ville change plus vite, hélas! que le coeur d'un mortel...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 8:35 AM
LMich's Avatar
LMich LMich is offline
Midwest Moderator - Editor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Big Mitten
Posts: 31,745
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxtex View Post
new orleans and baton rouge??? port of south louisianna is the busiest port by tonnage in the western hemisphere. i think that alone and it "sufficiency" global city status would be enough. if this were a city playoff they would be a wild card team.
I'm not even sure that this would functionally fit this example. But, beyond that, Baton Rouge is a fairly significant port city in its own right.
__________________
Where the trees are the right height
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 3:05 PM
novawolverine novawolverine is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by LMich View Post
I'm not even sure that this would functionally fit this example. But, beyond that, Baton Rouge is a fairly significant port city in its own right.
Yes, some cities have large ports of their own. New Orleans is one of them, Boston would count. But Baton Rouge and New Orleans together form a region with a significant amount of port activity rather than one being mainly a port city and the other being something else.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 3:35 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,888
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Athens and Pireas.
I think Athens was settled away from Pireaus due to concerns about invasion. I would imagine that some other ancient settlements were moved away from the port for the same reason.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 5:15 PM
brickell's Avatar
brickell brickell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: County of Dade
Posts: 9,379
Not sure if it fits the theme exactly but Caracas' port and airport are both located in Maiquetia along the coast.
__________________
That's what did it in the end. Not the money, not the music, not even the guns. That is my heroic flaw: my excess of civic pride.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 5:37 PM
Beedok Beedok is offline
Exiled Hamiltonian Gal
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
We're not quite there yet, but with real estate pressure on the industiral lands of Vancouver I think we're heading towards a situation where Surrey/Delta will be the dominant port city and Vancouver the large cosmopolitan city.
But all the cities around Vancouver basically exist because of Vancouver no? This is about two independent cities merging into one metro where one is dominant but the other is the port. So that's why Hamilton and Toronto are probably the closest thing Hamilton has to this (Toronto is an Alpha city, but Hamilton is still fairly independent at this stage).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 6:16 PM
GlassCity's Avatar
GlassCity GlassCity is offline
Rational urbanist
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Metro Vancouver
Posts: 5,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedok View Post
But all the cities around Vancouver basically exist because of Vancouver no? This is about two independent cities merging into one metro where one is dominant but the other is the port. So that's why Hamilton and Toronto are probably the closest thing Hamilton has to this (Toronto is an Alpha city, but Hamilton is still fairly independent at this stage).
^this. Once you get out of the CMA to Abbotsford it would probably still be around the same size, but every municipality inside the Vancouver CMA is the way it is due to proximity to Vancouver (except New Wesminster). While maybe Surrey or Delta's port could become bigger than Vancouver's, they're definitely not independent cities.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 11:21 PM
fflint's Avatar
fflint fflint is offline
Triptastic Gen X Snoozer
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 22,207
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenseCityPlease View Post
As far as whether the S.F. Bay Area was a metropolis back in the days of horse & buggy, that seems dubious.
I can see your point if you are arguing for some arbitrary, personal definition of 'metropolis' that includes a random population threshold that the Bay Area didn't meet.

However, you are obviously wrong to argue the area wasn't populous relative to other US areas in the horse and buggy days (which Wikipedia puts well into the early 20th century). Consider San Francisco was America's 10th most populous city by 1870, 9th most populous in 1880 and 1890, and so on. It is undeniable Oakland, serving as populous and urban San Francisco's mainland proxy, was a critical node in what was absolutely considered a 'metroplis' by contemporary standards.

Quote:
At a time when even Oakland and Berkeley were separated by miles of empty space, and a trip from city hall to city hall would have taken an hour, I have a hard time believing anybody thought of the region as a some enormous cross-bay metropolis. More like a cluster of small towns and growing cities that all happened to share access to a single body of water.
"Enormity" is in the eye of the beholder, but there is no question this was a populated region by the standards of the day. There is also no question Oakland served in the critical and unique role of being the overland terminus for interstate roadways, cargo and passenger rail, US mail, the telegraph, etc. for what was at the time one of the nation's ten most populous cities. Rather than merely being proximate but independent and self-contained, Oakland was intricately linked with San Francisco in the critical exchange of people, goods, capital, services, and communications and thus they grew in tandem. Oakland's historic maritime orientation is entirely due to its vital water connection with San Francisco's ocean port. Oakland grew fastest when the Intercontinental Railroad was extended as close to San Francisco as possible and then again when tens of thousands of San Franciscans settled in the town after the 1906 calamity.

Quote:
Given the transportation options of the day and the route of the transcontinental railroad, one could even make the argument the Oakland was more closely linked to Sacramento, 90 miles inland, than it was to San Francisco right across the bay.
I'd be fascinated to read a compelling argument showing Oakland more closely linked with the distant town of Sacramento than with the booming, populous, industrial city of San Francisco visible across the Bay.

The Transcontinental Railroad was purposed with connecting the populous and booming San Francisco area with the Eastern US rail network. The California segment was built by San Francisco rail companies with money from SF banks, and the eventual terminus jutted 11,000 ft. toward San Francisco on the Oakland Long Wharf pier. This is where Transcontinental traffic was transferred onto the ferry boat network that first connected Oakland and San Francisco in 1850. The importance (and indeed, existence) of the SF-built and funded connection between Oakland and Sacramento was driven exclusively by Oakland's particular role in serving San Francisco's markets, banks, industries, population, etc.

Your premise is quite shaky on its face.
__________________
"You need both a public and a private position." --Hillary Clinton, speaking behind closed doors to the National Multi-Family Housing Council, 2013
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 11:50 PM
POLA's Avatar
POLA POLA is offline
urbanphile
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Western Addition
Posts: 2,147
What's the point of this exercise? I ask because your criteria fails to shed any light on this phenomenon. The relationships of a city and a break point are important, but the politics of this are too nuanced to state it as simply as you have. For example: Long beach is not so much a port as it is just a suburb of LA. The port of LA is in LA and furthermore it was developed as essentially a colony of the city to keep other municipalities from usurping their power by building their own port. In the case of San Francisco, Oakland is the major port because of logistics (shorter rail distances) and globalization; Basically the Port of Oakland was expanded when San Francisco could not accommodate shipping containers (same thing happens with New York). I can't speak of the others, but from these two California examples, I feel that your criteria does not shed light on the reason why this happens.
__________________
I'll make no subscription to your paradise.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 12:39 AM
dc_denizen's Avatar
dc_denizen dc_denizen is offline
Selfie-stick vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New York Suburbs
Posts: 10,999
Oakland more linked to Sacramento, now I've heard everything...
__________________
Joined the bus on the 33rd seat
By the doo-doo room with the reek replete
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 12:41 AM
dc_denizen's Avatar
dc_denizen dc_denizen is offline
Selfie-stick vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New York Suburbs
Posts: 10,999
Athens/Piraeus
__________________
Joined the bus on the 33rd seat
By the doo-doo room with the reek replete
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 4:08 AM
rellott rellott is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Houstonia
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by POLA View Post
What's the point of this exercise? I ask because your criteria fails to shed any light on this phenomenon. The relationships of a city and a break point are important, but the politics of this are too nuanced to state it as simply as you have. For example: Long beach is not so much a port as it is just a suburb of LA. The port of LA is in LA and furthermore it was developed as essentially a colony of the city to keep other municipalities from usurping their power by building their own port. In the case of San Francisco, Oakland is the major port because of logistics (shorter rail distances) and globalization; Basically the Port of Oakland was expanded when San Francisco could not accommodate shipping containers (same thing happens with New York). I can't speak of the others, but from these two California examples, I feel that your criteria does not shed light on the reason why this happens.
Long Beach settled on its own and became the port for the faster growing LA. I believe LA annexed a strip of land to connect the two. Regardless, LA and LB are probably the best example for this thread.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 8:25 AM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I think Athens was settled away from Pireaus due to concerns about invasion. I would imagine that some other ancient settlements were moved away from the port for the same reason.
I think it was a number of things that led to settlements being away from the sea. Invasions are one. Storms, flooding and shitty weather (fog and rain) are others. You also have to be so far up an estuary for the water in the river to be drinkable rather than brackish. And then remember that, certainly apart from the Mediterranean, most societies weren't seafaring back then - waterborne trade was mostly through inland rivers.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 8:27 AM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,146
San Francisco / Oakland is a bad example. They're both port cities and travel between the two over land isn't easy.

LA / Long Beach is the best example in California by far.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 12:51 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is online now
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,902
London (Ontario) and Port Stanley.






Canada doesn't have an exemplar as specified. Montreal is however, dynamic in both regards.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. (Bertrand Russell)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 1:53 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,146
Now that the central London docklands are closed (and turned into residential neighborhoods, Canary Wharf, City Airport and some industrial trading estates), you could probably make an argument for London and the Thames Estuary. There isn't a particular city to highlight, though.

Southampton and London have also had a major city / port city relationship for a long time (e.g., from Victorian times people would travel from London to Southampton to board Transatlantic vessels like the Titanic). It's only 80 miles from central London, and an hour and a half by train. But if we're including ancient examples, it was actually originally the seaport town for Winchester, which was founded by the Romans and became the capital of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex. It wasn't until after the Normans conquered England in 1066 that London became the capital and main city.

Southampton and Winchester today: https://goo.gl/maps/9KWCr
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 2:02 PM
cabasse's Avatar
cabasse cabasse is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: atalanta
Posts: 4,173
atlanta as a distribution hub and savannah's port are interrelated economically like this, even if they are a few hours apart.

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/p....html?page=all
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 2:12 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,146
Not sure if anyone's mentioned, but Paris and Le Havre are another example of a city and a port that is not necessarily in its metro area, but has been inextricably linked for quite a long time.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 2:37 PM
tech12's Avatar
tech12 tech12 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland
Posts: 3,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
San Francisco / Oakland is a bad example. They're both port cities and travel between the two over land isn't easy.
"travel between the two over land isn't easy"

...well, duh. They're separated by water

But travel between the two by bridge takes only 15 minutes outside of rush hour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
LA / Long Beach is the best example in California by far.
If SF and Oakland are bad examples because they're both port cities, than LA and Long Beach are even worse examples, because they're both port cities too, and both see a lot more cargo than SF and Oakland. The LA-SF comparison is especially lopsided, seeing as the port of SF handles something like 1-2 million tons of cargo per year vs. the port of LA's 80 million.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:49 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.