Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[RC14]

Originally Posted by Hatman

The BRT line starts in the bus bays at Salt Lake Central Station. From there the buses enter 200 South on their own lanes (not via a slow bumpy driveway), since the road is elevated at that point to get over the FrontRunner/UP tracks. While TRAX is in the median, the bus lanes will take the outside lanes as their exclusive lanes, with protected bike lanes separating bus lanes from the single car lane in each direction.

Side stations at 500 West would be awesome.

At 400 West, the bus lanes will switch from the outside lanes to the median. Here bus signals will detect when a bus is present at a stop light and will let the bus have its own brief phase, allowing it to move ahead of cars. It will then cross the three lanes of traffic without needing to worry about cars, moving from the outside to the inside of the road (or visa versa).


From this point on, the buses would resemble TRAX or a Streetcar in every way except for being guided by tracks. Electric buses could be used to be smooth and quiet. Center platforms would make boarding fast and easy. A high frequency would be possible, especially if a network of fast bus lines is built down 700 East. And, when the bus lanes ended, the buses could keep going and run regular bus routes. You don't need dedicated bus lanes in order to make buses work, but you do need tracks to make a streetcar work.

But these are just my thoughts, and I enjoy reading everyone's opinions here. We have the opportunity to do something cool here, what with a mostly clean slate and lots of new money to work with.

I think having separate, dedicated lanes for TRAX and BRT would be overkill. Would it be possible to upgrade the TRAX ROW on 200 south to allow BRT and let buses stop at Old Greek Town station? Similar to what Makid suggested?

[RC14]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

I wonder if brt would be better for S Temple as well. Multiple bus lines breaking off the trunk line and heading into the Avenues.
You would get higher frequency on S Temple and a greater transit coverage area. It could be done with the existing bus lines by upgrading the buses and adding dedicated row with platforms to S Temple. All of the benefits of a streetcar (and then some) minus the rail.



I do like 900 S for a streetcar(one capable of running on the same rail as Trax on 200 w). I think there is a ton of development potential along 900 s and I don't think that 900 So. serves as a good line to cluster service. Further 5th, 6th, and 8th (not to mention half of 4th)are a substantial barrier between that area and the University Trax line. A Trax spur between central ninth and ninth and ninth is definitely on my wish list.

These are good thoughts. I didn't think about having buses fan out into the avenues.
After reading your comments, I do agree that South Temple would be better suited for BRT and 900 South for a street car. The Avenues seems like a community that would utilize transit and multiple BRT lines would give them more access to transit than a single streetcar line.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by RC14

I think having separate, dedicated lanes for TRAX and BRT would be overkill. Would it be possible to upgrade the TRAX ROW on 200 south to allow BRT and let buses stop at Old Greek Town station? Similar to what Makid suggested?

I don't think it would be possible without shutting down this section of Trax for a while due to it being built with gravel base as opposed to concrete base. This would require pulling out the track and base and then putting it back down into a concrete frame. This could be 3 to 4 months I think. I would hope though that if they did upgrade the track work, they would also do the section between 2nd south and South Temple. The whole section to the Central Station was done on the cheap and doesn't fit in with the rest of the SLC track work since it is concrete embedded.

I am also not sure if the stations would work or not as they are/were designed as Trax only stations. Station reworking could be done easier overnight though.

Outside of the track work, the only remaining issue is just running the trains opposite of traffic.

Slightly different subject but related in a way, there was a study from BYU that showed that removing mid-block left turns removed accident rates by more than 80% (I can't remember the exact percentage this morning). We also know that making pedestrians cross all lanes of traffic to reach the other side of the road for a transit connection can be both dangerous and inefficient.

I am wondering combining these 2 and reworking how the world thinks about bus lanes could work. Maybe making Salt Lake City/Salt Lake County a test bed for this concept.

Initially, we would just need a preferably straight route that has a center lane currently (State Street, Redwood Road, 5400S, 7th East, etc.), buses with doors on both sides, and then adding a center concrete median down the current center lane on the chosen road. Full width except for where the left turn lane is.

Bus stops and shelters will be placed in the median at selected points with protected crosswalks to help pedestrians get to these locations. Prepay/ticketed to make boarding faster (or free depending on when this is implemented). The bus would just travel down the inner most (left lane) never having to leave the travel lane to pick up passengers. Give the bus signal prioritization may help if it also included a switch for both left turn and straight so that the bus could push for both to help clear their path.

This is sort of a BRT/Fast Bus hybrid that would be cheaper than BRT, move potentially the same number of people while also getting better transit spread around faster. It also adds more pedestrian crossings which helps improve the pedestrian experience which can definitely help the suburbs improve their walk score and help increase density. To keep costs down, the stops/stations could even be built as islands at first, every 1/4 mile to every mile depending on location. Over time, the spaces in between the islands can be filled in to limit the left turns outside of intersections. The islands would only be able to be accessed by protected crosswalks.

Overall, the initial costs would be what 300K per bus, and using 5400S as an example, it would be roughly $4 Million for the buses (15 minute service frequencies plus backup) and about $5 Million for the islands and protected crosswalks. Even with adding a couple of fancy shelters it could be done with a $10 Million budget.

Would this work?

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by RC14

I think having separate, dedicated lanes for TRAX and BRT would be overkill.

Overkill now, yes, but the idea is to increase service so much that duplicate lanes become a necessity!

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by Makid

Slightly different subject but related in a way, there was a study from BYU that showed that removing mid-block left turns removed accident rates by more than 80% (I can't remember the exact percentage this morning). We also know that making pedestrians cross all lanes of traffic to reach the other side of the road for a transit connection can be both dangerous and inefficient.

I am wondering combining these 2 and reworking how the world thinks about bus lanes could work. Maybe making Salt Lake City/Salt Lake County a test bed for this concept.

Initially, we would just need a preferably straight route that has a center lane currently (State Street, Redwood Road, 5400S, 7th East, etc.), buses with doors on both sides, and then adding a center concrete median down the current center lane on the chosen road. Full width except for where the left turn lane is.

Bus stops and shelters will be placed in the median at selected points with protected crosswalks to help pedestrians get to these locations. Prepay/ticketed to make boarding faster (or free depending on when this is implemented). The bus would just travel down the inner most (left lane) never having to leave the travel lane to pick up passengers. Give the bus signal prioritization may help if it also included a switch for both left turn and straight so that the bus could push for both to help clear their path.

This is sort of a BRT/Fast Bus hybrid that would be cheaper than BRT, move potentially the same number of people while also getting better transit spread around faster. It also adds more pedestrian crossings which helps improve the pedestrian experience which can definitely help the suburbs improve their walk score and help increase density. To keep costs down, the stops/stations could even be built as islands at first, every 1/4 mile to every mile depending on location. Over time, the spaces in between the islands can be filled in to limit the left turns outside of intersections. The islands would only be able to be accessed by protected crosswalks.

Overall, the initial costs would be what 300K per bus, and using 5400S as an example, it would be roughly $4 Million for the buses (15 minute service frequencies plus backup) and about $5 Million for the islands and protected crosswalks. Even with adding a couple of fancy shelters it could be done with a $10 Million budget.

Would this work?

That would totally work. Sign me up.

Really, those two-way left-turn lanes in the medians are a bad idea that has stuck around long past their usefulness. Driveways should be right-turn in/right-turn out; anything else is just asking for a road to be dangerous and congested. In this age of Google Maps navigation, there should be no excuse for not being able to get to your destination just because you can't get there with a left turn.

[Makid]

I just like the idea of gradual improvements as well. If we can get the island idea going, we can possibly get 10 to 20 hybrid lines going for the cost of 1 BRT line. When ridership would be close to the same but costs as well as overall impact to the community.

What is also nice is that no travel lanes are lost. For additional capacity, just run more buses. Businesses would be able to have more on street parking as they wouldn't lose space for bus stops either.

Lastly, this would also help to increase density between intersections as that is where the transit connections would be.

While this wouldn't work for all routes, this would work for high frequency straight lines only. Those lines that have many turns would be better served with full BRT.

Feel free to shoot this plan around to other people, UTA, State Legislature, SL County, SL City, WFRC, etc., and anywhere else that it can possibly get traction. I just think we need to start thinking outside the old transit boxes and start thinking about new ideas and ways to get more riders without having to break the bank with each new idea.

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by Hatman

These are all great thoughts. Here are some of my own:

1) There is literally zero reason to extend a streetcar along 200 South all the way to the University. If you're trying to get to the university from Central Station, you would not want a system that is programmed to make many stops along the way for the sake of 'encouraging development.' No, you'd want an express bus that goes straight there with no or minimal stops, like the 2X does currently. The University is a big enough trip generator to warrant this type of service, so 'encouraging development' with a streetcar is not needed.

2) Without a firm eastern terminus, the streetcar's usefulness diminishes for each block it extends eastward. The area between Central Station and Main Street are pretty good for a streetcar, but that's less than a mile in distance and that is a service already offered by TRAX two blocks to the north.

Hatman, I love how detailed and well thought out your posts are! Don't ever stop posting! If a streetcar is built for local traffic, I would expect that non local commuters are not using it because you are right it would make little sense. I imagine residents of say 100 or 200 South walking to the streetcar to travel along 200 to get to a store, etc. Also, if I lived on 200 South it seems that riding the streetcar to the U. is still faster than walking, biking, etc. 4th South and then riding along a congested road on a train that only skits the South and East edges of the campus. If the streetcar when straight to President's Circle or even went below grade and terminated at the library it would be a better choice for locals along the route.

I can get behind the BRT line if the route is really made nice with beautiful stations because otherwise I don't see it spuring development. Maybe I am ignorant, but does anyone have an example of a BRT line nationally (I don't prefer international because I fill like those are different dynamics at play) being built and developers investing afterward? One thing I have been really impressed with is how much quality investment has happened along the Sugarhouse line.

[Hatman]

Yes, good stations are so important! Developers don't want to build next to streetcar lines, they want to build next to streetcar stations - and it isn't hard to then accept that any transit service that has the same type of patronage can achieve a similar result. After all, it isn't that people like riding in trains (I do, but I'm strange ), people like riding in a form of transit that offers fast, simple, clean, convenient service. A bus can do that just as well as a streetcar.

The thing is, people think that streetcars need good stations in order to work (They don't, Toronto's streetcars stop in the street, the way they did historically), so they build their shiny new streetcar lines with nice stations. People see that buses don't need stations to work, so they don't build them. There needs to be a mental disconnect from the mode and the type of service offered. Good transit - not good trains - require well-marked stations with platforms and fast service. Bad transit - not bad buses - have no amenities and feature no more than a sign indicating where the thing stops.

Here is a picture of Cleveland's "Health Line," one of the best BRT in the USA today (until August, when our own UVX opens!):



A study done on the development impacts of this line claimed something totally redicoulus, like $114 dollars in economic development for ever $1 spent on the line's construction. This is in comparison to other studies which say that in general, transit returns $4 for every dollar invested.

So on the one hand, perhaps Cleveland is overestimating a bit, but on the other hand BRT is so much cheaper to construct than other rail modes that it should be no surprise that its economic returns are much higher.

All I'm saying is that this can be done cheaply and easily. We could even start with the 2X route getting buses with doors on both sides and incrementally improve the corridor, as Makid suggested for the N-S corridors. It's been done in other places. We won't be breaking new ground here. All there is to do is to convince the people who are planning the transit expansion that good transit doesn't need to be a streetcar.

[Makid]

I am not sure if anyone else saw this but I thought it was interesting:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...8&postcount=35

The link is to a post in the middle of a discussion regarding the dynamics of the vitality of the downtowns of Australian cities versus that of North American cities, primarily those of the US.

The post linked above is a percentage breakdown by metro areas of those who take transit to work from 2016.

Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro 6.4
Hobart 6.2
Baltimore-Columbia-Towson 6.1
Pittsburgh 6.0
Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim 5.1
Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington 4.7
Salt Lake City 4.6
San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara 4.3
Denver-Aurora-Lakewood 4.0
Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach 3.8
Las Vegas-Henderson-Paradise 3.7
Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis 3.6
Cleveland-Elyria 3.1

I am always amazed at our numbers for ridership but knowing that for coverage and ridership to/from jobs we are doing better than many other larger cities is also equally impressive. This number should increase as density is added along the high frequency routes/lines. Especially if the Blue Line is extended to Lehi and FrontRunner is double tracked.

[ajiuO]

Dose anyone know why UTA doesn’t go to the zoo? there is a bus that goes to this is the place. how hard would it be for them to make an extra stop.

Also... the bus that goes to this is the place only goes there at weird times of the day. most of the day the bus stopes at research park witch leaves a good mile and a half walk. what drives me nuts is that when the bus doesn’t go to this is the place it parks at the last stop for 20 minutes with the bus running. it would only take 5 minutes for them to make the extra stop and even add an additional stop to the zoo.

Every time I have taken the bus to this is the place, almost everyone at the stop is for the zoo. The zoo for sure gets more visitors then this is the place... I don’t get it.

perhaps someone on here has some knowledge on this issue.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Dose anyone know why UTA doesn’t go to the zoo? there is a bus that goes to this is the place. how hard would it be for them to make an extra stop.

Also... the bus that goes to this is the place only goes there at weird times of the day. most of the day the bus stopes at research park witch leaves a good mile and a half walk. what drives me nuts is that when the bus doesn’t go to this is the place it parks at the last stop for 20 minutes with the bus running. it would only take 5 minutes for them to make the extra stop and even add an additional stop to the zoo.

Every time I have taken the bus to this is the place, almost everyone at the stop is for the zoo. The zoo for sure gets more visitors then this is the place... I don’t get it.

perhaps someone on here has some knowledge on this issue.

UTA proposed adding a stop at the zoo but it was blocked by the Utah Parking Lot Preservation Society. It was determined that the massive parking lot surrounding the zoo would no longer be viable if a transit stop was located any closer to the zoo. Salt Lake City Mayor Jackie Biskupski weighed in by saying "Bike lanes and bus stops while perhaps beneficial to the environment lead to a great number of pedestrians and cyclists within our city that really irritate me when I am driving. While I understand that many SLC residents would like to see more options than a SUV for transportation I think it is important that they realize that I don't care what they think. God damn I love my Tahoe."

[DCRes]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

UTA proposed adding a stop at the zoo but it was blocked by the Utah Parking Lot Preservation Society. It was determined that the massive parking lot surrounding the zoo would no longer be viable if a transit stop was located any closer to the zoo. Salt Lake City Mayor Jackie Biskupski weighed in by saying "Bike lanes and bus stops while perhaps beneficial to the environment lead to a great number of pedestrians and cyclists within our city that really irritate me when I am driving. While I understand that many SLC residents would like to see more options than a SUV for transportation I think it is important that they realize that I don't care what they think. God damn I love my Tahoe."

[Hatman]

UTA Change day on August 18th has been announced, and it includes the Provo-Orem BRT - or, by its new name, the UVX

Here is what the brochure has to say about it:

UVX (830X) - Looks like a bus, rides like a train. Introducing the new Utah Valley Express (UVX). UVX isn't like other buses - it travels in exclusive lanes to fly by traffic. Stop lights change to green when it approaches and the UVX arrives every six minutes during peak hours. UVX stops are more like light rail stations, with elevated platforms, displays showing when the next bus will arrive, and sheltered waiting areas. From BYU to UVU, FrontRunner to shopping malls, getting around Provo and Orem has never been faster or easier. (Pardon our dust, construction will continue past opening)

I did not italicize the last part, UTA did that on their own because they aren't kidding! Word from the grapevine is that only one new station is going to be completely ready on opening day, and that one is 700 North in Provo. The side stations at the MTC and BYU's stadium will probably come next a few weeks later, followed by the University Parkway stations all opening in a batch a few months later. Next will be the University Avenue segment, possibly a month or two after the Parkway segment. Last of all will be the South Town Mall station, which is really dragging.
The Adobe and main BYU stations will open whenever, since they are not on a segment with dedicated lanes. Of course, the BRT platforms at the FrontRunner stations have been ready to go since 2013, so no worries about those being late (except for a few details like electronic signs and such).

In the meanwhile, the UVX buses will be using regular traffic lanes and stopping at the local bus stops, which will be a pretty amazing sight! Those big long 60-foot buses are not going to fit in the regular bus pullout areas, meaning they're going to stop traffic either way.

This sounds like the recipe for a real mess, and it's going to be. We need to be prepared for all the hate UTA is going to get. Most people aren't going to understand how anyone could take three years to build 10 miles of bus lanes for so many millions of dollars and still open late and mess things up. We need to get the word out that this project is officially the 'Transportation Improvement Project', because it isn't just building bus lanes, it is a total reconstruction of both University Parkway and University Avenue, including significant widening and lane adding on University Parkway and major pedestrian improvements along the entire route. In addition, every intersection touched by this project had to be completely rebuilt. Building bus lanes was the easy part; reconstructing all the car infrastructure was not.

This is one of the reasons I'm more excited for a 'Bus-Plus' concept, where buses have BRT stations but use normal traffic lanes (and don't pull out of those lanes for station stops). This means that roads don't have to be reconstructed. BRT was the right solution for Provo-Orem. I'm very excited it got built the way it did! But I don't think it is the right model for the entire Salt Lake Valley. 200 South, yes! The downtown portion of State Street, Yes! 700 East, Redwood Road? ... nah, Bus Plus.

I will say, though, that I predict the buses will still be full anyway. From August 18th onward, students at BYU will be able to ride for free. Of course, everyone will be able to ride UVX for free anyway, but with all the new riders, UTA will definitely need the capacity of its 60-foot buses. It's going to be a wild time in Provo, but it will all be worth it!

Here is the schedule
LINK


Provo FrontRunner - BYU South Campus: 12 minutes
Provo FrontRunner - BYU Stadiums: 16 minutes
Provo FrontRunner - South Town Mall: 3 minutes
Provo FrontRunner - Center Street: 5 minutes

Orem FrontRunner - UVU: 6 minutes
Orem FrontRunner - University Place: 13 Minutes

A full one-way trip from Orem to Adobe takes 46 minutes.

I imagine that these times are for when the exclusive bus lanes open.

[Hatman]

I just need to post a picture of the schedule, because it warms my heart to see UTA finally reducing a route's frequency to a single-digit number!



We did it! We've finally broken the 15 minute barrier, and amost by a third! A six-minute frequency will be just a minute less than the segment of TRAX where all three lines use the same tracks. It will be so cool!
This is also the first time UTA is having a frequent route operate higher frequencies during rush hours. They've dabbled in having extra unscheduled Red Line TRAX service, but this is the first time its official. I really hope they do this more often! Higher frequency is a major factor in making public transit more enjoyable to regular people. I hope this schedule makes people on other routes very jealous, and that they compel UTA to increase frequency (at least peak hour service) in their area as well.

[Makid]

I can't wait for it to open and I do hope that ridership is high.

Is the fall semester the official start of the 100,000 free passes? BYU and UVU Students, BYU and UVU Faculty, and the faculties spouses/families.

The passes are for UTA in its entirety so ideally it would be nice to see jumps across all transit modes.

I am jealous about the frequency of the line and would love to see a few routes that should get that speed:

South Davis BRT
Murray Trax to SLCC
Ogden FrontRunner to Weber State
5600 West BRT (more important with inland port now)
State Street
3500 South (Fix the Max mess and do it right)

I think the East side needs a BRT line but the roads are not wide enough and the wide roads are too wide to really support TODs.

[Dogwata]

I am definitely planning to use those services daily. I just hope we can circumvent the toxic culture in Utah Valley that is outspokenly anti-progress.

It was widely publicized that the porject wouldn't be complete until early 2019. But as others have mentioned, opponents will capitalize on the lack of public awareness regarding all of this.

Needless to say, if the conservative culture wasn't so uninformed and stuck in their unsustainable ways, UVX, along with the free public transit passes, would virtually eliminate traffic problems in the Orem/Provo area. I think the biggest change will be that UVU students living in BYU housing will pretty much have no argument against using the bus to commute. Additionally, I think we'll see a huge influx of people taking free public transit to the airport/downtown area rather than driving -- it simply makes more sense.

The thing that really has to happen now is for Frontrunner to conform to their posted schedule. The main argument I've heard from others (and can be ascertained by my own personal experience) is that the schedules can be quite unreliable.

@Hatman I think you meant August 12th, unless I misread/misinterpreted something?

[ThePusherMan]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

I do like 900 S for a streetcar(one capable of running on the same rail as Trax on 200 w). I think there is a ton of development potential along 900 s and I don't think that 900 So. serves as a good line to cluster service. Further 5th, 6th, and 8th (not to mention half of 4th)are a substantial barrier between that area and the University Trax line. A Trax spur between central ninth and ninth and ninth is definitely on my wish list.

Connecting West 9th & 9th (Jordan Park and Jordan river trails) with Central 9th and 9th & 9th with a streetcar line is an absolute no brainer. So many core Salt Lake City neighborhoods are along 9th south. I would absolutely kill for something like that. Opportunity to expand further east. Maybe up Sunnyside and to the zoo!

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

UTA proposed adding a stop at the zoo but it was blocked by the Utah Parking Lot Preservation Society. It was determined that the massive parking lot surrounding the zoo would no longer be viable if a transit stop was located any closer to the zoo. Salt Lake City Mayor Jackie Biskupski weighed in by saying "Bike lanes and bus stops while perhaps beneficial to the environment lead to a great number of pedestrians and cyclists within our city that really irritate me when I am driving. While I understand that many SLC residents would like to see more options than a SUV for transportation I think it is important that they realize that I don't care what they think. God damn I love my Tahoe."

Wow. That is unbelievable.

[joscar]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Word from the grapevine is that only one new station is going to be completely ready on opening day, and that one is 700 North in Provo. The side stations at the MTC and BYU's stadium will probably come next a few weeks later, followed by the University Parkway stations all opening in a batch a few months later. Next will be the University Avenue segment, possibly a month or two after the Parkway segment. Last of all will be the South Town Mall station, which is really dragging.
The Adobe and main BYU stations will open whenever, since they are not on a segment with dedicated lanes. Of course, the BRT platforms at the FrontRunner stations have been ready to go since 2013, so no worries about those being late (except for a few details like electronic signs and such).

In the meanwhile, the UVX buses will be using regular traffic lanes and stopping at the local bus stops, which will be a pretty amazing sight! Those big long 60-foot buses are not going to fit in the regular bus pullout areas, meaning they're going to stop traffic either way.

Here's some additional information on the phased opening of the UVX stations: https://www.heraldextra.com/news/loc...9796a2f4c.html

Apparently some unexpected historical finds and the inability to get steel (can we blame Trump's tariffs?) are among the reasons for most stations not being opened on August 13.

[joscar]

Originally Posted by joscar

Has anyone posted renderings of UTA's new Depot District Transit Center yet? Maintenance Design Group has some on their website: http://maintenancedesigngroup.com/pr...ransit-center/

The media recently covered the opening of UTA's new natural gas fueling facility, which was built next to the railroad tracks at about 700 West and 400 South. This got me looking into UTA's plans for the area. This new fueling station is the first part of the "transit center" which will replace UTA's current downtown bus operations center.

Much of the historic Denver & Rio Grande shop/freight area just to the west of the tracks at Salt Lake Central will be torn down for this new center. But it looks like the largest building will be rehabilitated and used as the new bus maintenance building. I haven't heard any public announcements about when (and if) construction will start. Though UTA put out a bid last year for demolition at what is think is the site.

Last month UTA solicited bids for Construction Manager/General Contractor services to oversee the Depot District Transit Center construction. I'd would imagine we'll be hearing more about this in the coming months.