Small Ohio cities experiencing manufacturing revival thanks to fracking

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Always glad to hear rumblings of revival in rust belt cities. The economy of the city I live in (London, Ontario; which was walloped in the last recession worse than any other major Canadian city, proportionately speaking) is closely tied to the economies of Michigan and Ohio.

That rumbling you are hearing is the earthquakes fracking creates.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by mhays

^^Industry talking points.

Trying to take over the opponents' terminology is another standard tactic. Sort of like the right wingers who shout "hate speech" when someone complains about religious displays.

baloney. the arguments against fracking and Keystone are for the most part, poor. the only good argument (and it is a good one) is that we should husband our hydrocarbons as much as possible and keep it in the ground. but citing wells, aquifiers, the rest is all bullshit debate tactics. peer review, pound for pound the arguments against fracking especially have been completely demolished.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

There are some serious environmental issues surrounding fracking, and the Keystone sounds like a disaster in the making to me.

Have we already forgotten the nice neighborhood outside of Little Rock that was rendered uninhabitable by the buried Exxon pipe leak last year? A pipe nobody even knew was buried under their homes?

There needs to be much stricter oversight, and the EPA needs to be left alone. The agency has been gutted in recent years.

The alternative to the Keystone pipeline is to send the oil from the tar sands of Alberta by train to Delaware and elsewhere, which is already happening. Sending it by train has already been shown to be more polluting, as far as tons of carbon produced, than a pipeline would be. The risk of a derailment is assessed to be higher than a rupture in the pipeline, as well.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

The contamination and the flaring in the great plains where the infrastructure is not there yet is troublesome. Allowing more of that cheap nat gas to be sold overseas would take care of the latter.

I'm not aware of fracking procedures and concerns in the Plains. In Pennsylvania, poorly constructed wells have been to blame for those wild videos of lighting tap water on fire. A publication just came out providing more evidence that poorly constructed wells and natural gas wells poorly capped are the reason for contaminated drinking water, based on tracers put in and followed. I have not had a chance to read it, though.

[mrnyc]

my brother has visited friend's cabins a few times, somewhere below canton, and he says the noise and the rumbling ground from the fracking is incredible. he was shocked. there is no way that is good for the environment, from the groundwater to the people and animals living around it. but i guess the landowners are quick to sellout for easy money. i hope it doesnt turn into a complete environmental disaster. it will take time to know so i guess we'll see.

[mhays]

Industry talking heads pretend it's all known and figured out. But there are huge unknowns, in addition to the known problems.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

my brother has visited friend's cabins a few times, somewhere below canton, and he says the noise and the rumbling ground from the fracking is incredible. he was shocked. there is no way that is good for the environment, from the groundwater to the people and animals living around it. but i guess the landowners are quick to sellout for easy money. i hope it doesnt turn into a complete environmental disaster. it will take time to know so i guess we'll see.

Oh good lord, what a pile of bulls**t... Not attacking you, mrnyc, but while there are most definitely sounds and rumbling coming from the TRUCKS used in all aspects of well placement, construction, completions and continuing operations, there is no way you'll hear sounds and rumbling from a frac job itself unless you're within very, very close proximity of one taking place.

Speaking as someone who works in the industry, albeit far removed from the field operations themselves, I'm growing ever weary of both sides of the issue letting the loudest mouths and biggest jerks dominate. There are reasonable people on both sides of the issue, that's where real debate, discussion and results can occur. And yes, I'm attacking BOTH sides of the issue, for I think the industry itself has been woefully inept when it comes to public relations, not complaining about reasonable regulations, reasonable limitations, etc... etc...

But anyhow, just my $.02

Aaron (Glowrock)

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

I'm not aware of fracking procedures and concerns in the Plains. In Pennsylvania, poorly constructed wells have been to blame for those wild videos of lighting tap water on fire. A publication just came out providing more evidence that poorly constructed wells and natural gas wells poorly capped are the reason for contaminated drinking water, based on tracers put in and followed. I have not had a chance to read it, though.

This is very true. Poorly constructed wells (most of which were drilled LONG BEFORE the current regulatory regimes that are in place and BEFORE the Marcellus and Utica Shale booms) are mainly at fault here, along with poor cement jobs. Old water wells and shallow oil/gas wells in the 1,000-3,000 foot depth range are most at fault here. In other words, wells drilled and built on the cheap by mom and pop companies without any of the modern-era engineering and regulatory requirements.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[mrnyc]

^ oh i know aaron it was nothing personal. obviously my bro doesn't work in the business either, it was just his observations and opinions based on a few visits to an area where this is going on. and yes he was very close to it, pretty sure he said it was on the property and on nearby properties.

i really don't know anything about fracking except it has been very controversial in upstate ny as well. i wouldn't want to live around it, but it occurs in fairly unpopulated areas so maybe no so big a concern. i do worry about the environmental impact though. guess i'll have to read up on it more.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

^ oh i know aaron it was nothing personal. obviously my bro doesn't work in the business either, it was just his observations and opinions based on a few visits to an area where this is going on. and yes he was very close to it, pretty sure he said it was on the property and on nearby properties.

i really don't know anything about fracking except it has been very controversial in upstate ny as well. i wouldn't want to live around it, but it occurs in fairly unpopulated areas so maybe no so big a concern. i do worry about the environmental impact though. guess i'll have to read up on it more.

Yes, if you're on or very nearby properties with wells that are being fraced, then yes, of course it will be loud and you'll feel some vibrations while the process is actually going on (and during the entry/exit of the large number of trucks needs to undergo such a process). So that makes sense.

It's controversial in upstate NY for what are, in my mind, some really ridiculous reasons. It's as if every resident with any clout of any sort has been indoctrinated into Gasland, if you get my drift. I'll never claim there are no problems, no hazards, no negative repercussions of fracing, but it's nothing even remotely close to being as horrific as Gasland makes it out to be. Frankly, upstate NY could use some jobs, especially some high-paying ones, and I wish that the state would stop fighting any and all fracing and simply push for strict regulations to be put on it. Regulate it, don't ban it.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

I'm not aware of fracking procedures and concerns in the Plains. In Pennsylvania, poorly constructed wells have been to blame for those wild videos of lighting tap water on fire. A publication just came out providing more evidence that poorly constructed wells and natural gas wells poorly capped are the reason for contaminated drinking water, based on tracers put in and followed. I have not had a chance to read it, though.

Flaring is where nat gas is burned off during extraction due to a combination of low gas prices and lack of infrastructure to capture and transport the gas. The plains are relatively new to the game and don't have nearly as much infrastructure in place as Texas or OK.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by mhays

^^Industry talking points.

Trying to take over the opponents' terminology is another standard tactic. Sort of like the right wingers who shout "hate speech" when someone complains about religious displays.

Originally Posted by mhays

Industry talking heads pretend it's all known and figured out. But there are huge unknowns, in addition to the known problems.

Is that really the best you have, complaining about industry talking head and talking points?

No one is arguing that the current domestic renaissance in production isn't without its trade offs or that it is all figured out.... Stop being partisan and think pragmatically.

[montréaliste]

Small Ohio cities experiencing population revival thanks to f..cking.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

Is that really the best you have, complaining about industry talking head and talking points?

No one is arguing that the current domestic renaissance in production isn't without its trade offs or that it is all figured out.... Stop being partisan and think pragmatically.

Aren't you an oil industry guy? Surprise.

[mrskyline]

Originally Posted by glowrock

Frankly, upstate NY could use some jobs, especially some high-paying ones, and I wish that the state would stop fighting any and all fracing and simply push for strict regulations to be put on it. Regulate it, don't ban it.

Aaron (Glowrock)

Exactly what the Finger Lakes area of upstate NY (farming, wine, tourism, universities) DOESN'T need is to destroy its drinking water. You will be hard pressed to find anyone there who wants fracking. If Andrew Cuomo wasn't so bought out by greedy corporate interests it would have been permanently banned by now. The people do not want this.

Corporate greed in the name of "globalism" guts America's manufacturing jobs and now we have to grovel to the oil industry and accept tracking? Hell no. We don't have to live this way.

[dc_denizen]

except it doesn't destroy drinking water - more anti science.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by glowrock

This is very true. Poorly constructed wells (most of which were drilled LONG BEFORE the current regulatory regimes that are in place and BEFORE the Marcellus and Utica Shale booms) are mainly at fault here, along with poor cement jobs. Old water wells and shallow oil/gas wells in the 1,000-3,000 foot depth range are most at fault here. In other words, wells drilled and built on the cheap by mom and pop companies without any of the modern-era engineering and regulatory requirements.

Aaron (Glowrock)

I don't have experience in the fracking industry, or oil and gas in general. I do have experience in water wells, and have seen water wells of poor quality here in Delaware that have had to be abandoned and replaced. Wells do have a "shelf life", so to speak, if they were drilled in the 1940s and 1950s. Even wells drilled in the 1970s are too old to rely on for safe drinking water with confidence.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by mrskyline

Exactly what the Finger Lakes area of upstate NY (farming, wine, tourism, universities) DOESN'T need is to destroy its drinking water. You will be hard pressed to find anyone there who wants fracking. If Andrew Cuomo wasn't so bought out by greedy corporate interests it would have been permanently banned by now. The people do not want this.

Corporate greed in the name of "globalism" guts America's manufacturing jobs and now we have to grovel to the oil industry and accept tracking? Hell no. We don't have to live this way.

What areas of Upstate New York use groundwater as their drinking water source? I know that the Buffalo area gets its water from Lake Erie and the Niagara River. I would think with the Great Lakes and Finger Lakes that abound, that surface water was utilized in many places throughout the state.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by mhays

Aren't you an oil industry guy? Surprise.

Nope, pharmacy guy.

[mrskyline]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

What areas of Upstate New York use groundwater as their drinking water source? I know that the Buffalo area gets its water from Lake Erie and the Niagara River. I would think with the Great Lakes and Finger Lakes that abound, that surface water was utilized in many places throughout the state.

I grew up drinking well water in the Finger Lakes area. No one who lives in that area wants Fracking and it should not be forced on them.