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  #10621  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2015, 2:48 PM
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eburress eburress is offline
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Originally Posted by SDCAL View Post
Disagree. San Diego is a second tier city because of our airport and our proximity to LA which tends to get the regional (i.e. southern California) hubs for many things. Media for example. CNN is in LA, not SD, and the examples go on. Major international corporations establishing in this region tend to go to the LA area. LA is more internationally known and accessible and has far more international investment than SD. And, LA has not had a major league football team for a long time.

Again, I think those who are Chargers fans are overstating the importance - the problems you describe with SD's status as a major city or lack thereof exist WITH the Chargers here. Not to mention, newer stadiums seem to be migrating away from cities and into suburbs. Look at SF and the proposals for LA, they are getting away from this old-school idea of stadiums right in the heart of the city. They are moving to suburbs and seem to be less defined with the identity of the city and more with the metro/suburb areas. They have become ways for little known "satellite cities" like Carson and Santa Clara to make identities for themselves as opposed to large, established cities trying to retain them for their stature.
My contention isn't that the Chargers are the only thing determining San Diego's status, but that the Chargers are just another piece of evidence out of a bigger body of evidence* suggesting a decline. Not having an NFL franchise and/or being a single sport town does make it clearer though where San Diego ranks amongst its peers, and to me, that's part of the deeper significance of this specific loss.

And regarding LA, while not having an NFL franchise does detract from its status (e.g., "how good can the city be if it can't figure out how to build a stadium?" or "what's wrong with it that it can't keep its franchises?"), I agree that they generally have enough else going on to overcome not having an NFL franchise.



*This evidence includes but is not limited to the airport, the Chargers, the Sports Arena, Comic Con, the roads, the NIMBYs (and the development they stifle), the general difficulty doing business here, the companies that have left, etc...

Last edited by eburress; Jun 7, 2015 at 7:32 PM.
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  #10622  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2015, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by The Flying Dutchman View Post
Thanks for the update Bertrice.

Here's a link to the newly-released 460 16th street renderings that came out today:

http://www.civicsd.com/images/storie...duced_8x11.pdf

I like it. Still, I'm interested to see how the Lower East Village dynamic between homeless outreach operations and young professionals is going to work out.
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  #10623  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2015, 3:51 PM
Bertrice Bertrice is offline
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From Quartyard

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  #10624  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2015, 7:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SDfan View Post
You do realize the basis of economics rests on comparative analysis and data, right? You can't compare the relationship between "the Chargers/San Diego economy" to itself only. You need other examples to provide reference points in order to prove and/or disprove your theories.
Economic Theory does. The reality of economics are specific.

It's very well possible that the Chargers leaving San Diego do nothing to harm the overall economy. But to compare what happens in another city, with another team and in a different sport to San Diego and the Chargers is silly.



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Originally Posted by SDfan View Post
Good, this is comparative, but you're also forgetting Buffalo is not a modern economic powerhouse, but rather, a slowly recovering relic of a manufacturing empire long gone. They don't deal with housing issues because who moves to Buffalo these days? Wage stagnation and income inequality wouldn't be a problem in a city that is desperately trying to change it's occupational base and is having difficulty luring high-income jobs to begin with. And cool, they have lots of water, they win the geography lottery this time; oh, and enjoy winter...
Maybe more people should move to Buffalo, where they can afford to live, rather than stay in a city that they can't afford and demand that others subsidize them?

Just where does someone get the right to live in San Diego? They don't. Maybe in places where it's possible to afford to own a home should be a consideration for people. Just a thought.

Oh and winter, it can suck but it also can be enjoyable if you like winter. I am sure if just a 1/3 of the lower income class in San Diego moved there would still be someone to serve you and your friends brunch on Sunday so you can pontificate on just how wrong everyone else is.


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Originally Posted by SDfan View Post
My interaction with what? The economy? I'm guessing (since you're not clear here at all) that you mean I don't have much of an investment in "the Chargers/San Diego economy," or, that I'm not a fan of the team or the NFL. To be honest, I'm not. So, yes (I think) you are correct here. I don't give two flying ducks about them. I do care about actual issues, like transportation, housing, infrustucture, etc. You know, day to day things that affect millions of people in this region.
What's obvious is you have your view of things and to anyone who does not agree with you they can go F Off. You're entitled to this opinion but it still makes you what you are.

Like I said before, maybe the issues of transportation, housing and infrastructure are simply the result of people who live in San Diego that shouldn't.

Maybe the guy who is able to take care of his business does not want to give up something like having an NFL team in his city so someone who is uneducated and unqualified to support a family they should not have had can live in their neighborhood.

Why do people like you feel that you have the exclusive rights to be elitist?
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  #10625  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2015, 9:46 PM
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^^^ Why has this ignorant way of thinking become so pervasive in San Diego? Those who work fulltime jobs that pay under $15 dollars an hour should just up and move to Miwaukee, San Antonio, or Buffalo because they can't afford SD County? What percentage of jobs here actually pay enough for someone to live a decent basic life outside of their parents/families homes? Maybe 40%. So 50 to 60% of fulltime workers should just up and move to some place cheaper than here? Who will then do all the admin, retail, service jobs etc?

Article in the UT today said City of Carlsbad has not built any for rent apartments in 10 years and now rents in Cbad, Vista, and Oceanside have seriuosly ramped up. This is happening all over the county but we should just freeze our metro area in a time warp and not build any new apartments and have all the unfortunate ones take off? In other countries like Denmark and Norway they understand it takes everyone for society to function from the 7/11 clerk, to the Burger King worker, to a brain surgeon. All people deserve a decent place to live not just fortunate baby boomers who bought housing and then has seen their property values double or more.
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  #10626  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 12:38 AM
SDCAL SDCAL is offline
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Originally Posted by dales5050 View Post
Oh and winter, it can suck but it also can be enjoyable if you like winter. I am sure if just a 1/3 of the lower income class in San Diego moved there would still be someone to serve you and your friends brunch on Sunday so you can pontificate on just how wrong everyone else is.
Do you really want SD turning into another SF or Manhattan, an enclave where only the rich can live? I think communities thrive when you have people at all levels, yet those at the lower level can afford the basics. Manhattan and SF, once the great cultural centers of this country are now walled-off to anyone except wealthy Wall Street executives or dot com moguls. I don't think the answer to a great city is squeezing the lower income people out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dales5050 View Post
Like I said before, maybe the issues of transportation, housing and infrastructure are simply the result of people who live in San Diego that shouldn't.
So, who do you want to be the gatekeepers to keep those who "shouldn't be here" out? And what criteria would they use? Personally I'm OK with the USA being free, and citizens being able to move freely within our borders, but I do hear this very strange argument a lot that SD has too many people and should just stop building or try and cut-off anyone moving here. Then you take it to another level and suggest using economic criteria to exclude certain people, if I understand your viewpoint correctly?

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Originally Posted by dales5050 View Post
Maybe the guy who is able to take care of his business does not want to give up something like having an NFL team in his city so someone who is uneducated and unqualified to support a family they should not have had can live in their neighborhood.
Isn't part of living in a free market system that you take risks when you open a business? If someone opens a business and their business model is to profit from a sports stadium and after a decade that sports stadium decides to relocate, isn't that part of how a free market works? It's up to the business owner to make a contingency plan?

And I really don't get your argument about how not retaining an NFL team encourages uneducated/poor families to move to the neighborhood.

I've heard a lot of arguments for keeping the Chargers here but must say this one is among the most bizarre. If I've somehow misunderstood your post, please feel free to correct me.
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  #10627  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 4:45 AM
SDCAL SDCAL is offline
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San Diego Ritz Carlton Downtown

I was just looking through various development sites tonight, and I stumbled upon Cisterra Development. It would appear that the city has selected their proposal for 7th and Market, and, according to their site will include:

'we have commitments from Ritz Carlton Hotel Company, a world- class gourmet grocer and pre-leasing interest from two large office tenants to locate within the project'

40,000-square-foot gourmet grocer and market
184-room Ritz Carlton hotel
68 Ritz Carlton branded condominium units
168,000 square feet of Class A office space
110 market rate apartments
35 affordable housing units
2 ground floor restaurants associated with the hotel
6,000-square-foot public open space
248 public parking spaces












Last edited by SDCAL; Jun 8, 2015 at 5:09 AM.
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  #10628  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 5:59 AM
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Holy s**t!! Total game changer for SD! Finally a major luxury brand coming, and mixed use I am not a huge fan of the tower itself though, I preferred the rendering someone posted about a month ago a few pages back. This one looks to be 450 feet, hopefully with office tenants wanting to jump in they add a couple more floors and push it to 500. SD skyline will really be coming together with a nice tall in that spot kind of right in the middle of everything, with Ball Park Village, and 15th Island it will be looking solid from East and South now.
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  #10629  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 6:00 AM
dtell04 dtell04 is offline
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The Chargers debates sure are interesting. It spills over into everything.
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  #10630  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 6:00 AM
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Originally Posted by eburress View Post
My contention isn't that the Chargers are the only thing determining San Diego's status, but that the Chargers are just another piece of evidence out of a bigger body of evidence* suggesting a decline.
You could equally say that the NFL is in decline, with major cities such as SF and LA disinterested in dolling out billions of dollars to subsidize for-profit institutions that have little value outside of "feel-good" civic pride. San Diego has issues, but I'd hardly say we are in decline, especially when many of our economic indicators are at or above the national average.

Quote:
Not having an NFL franchise and/or being a single sport town does make it clearer though where San Diego ranks amongst its peers, and to me, that's part of the deeper significance of this specific loss.
You do realize we are not a first tier city, nor have we ever been? How can we rank lower amongst cities which we've never been peers with? And there are cities without NFL teams (San Antonio, Portland, Austin) who are doing just fine without football, and plenty of cities with NFL teams (Detroit, Buffalo) who aren't saved by their NFL rankings. It might be a piece, but it's not a very big one.

Quote:
*This evidence includes but is not limited to the airport, the Chargers, the Sports Arena, Comic Con, the roads, the NIMBYs (and the development they stifle), the general difficulty doing business here, the companies that have left, etc...
True. All issues more pressing, and not relevant to, a football franchise. We have serious problems, incredible potential, and a desperate need to focus on what matters in this city. The Chargers should not be at the center.
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  #10631  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 6:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dales5050 View Post
Economic Theory does. The reality of economics are specific.

It's very well possible that the Chargers leaving San Diego do nothing to harm the overall economy. But to compare what happens in another city, with another team and in a different sport to San Diego and the Chargers is silly.

Maybe more people should move to Buffalo, where they can afford to live, rather than stay in a city that they can't afford and demand that others subsidize them?

Just where does someone get the right to live in San Diego? They don't. Maybe in places where it's possible to afford to own a home should be a consideration for people. Just a thought.

Oh and winter, it can suck but it also can be enjoyable if you like winter. I am sure if just a 1/3 of the lower income class in San Diego moved there would still be someone to serve you and your friends brunch on Sunday so you can pontificate on just how wrong everyone else is.

What's obvious is you have your view of things and to anyone who does not agree with you they can go F Off. You're entitled to this opinion but it still makes you what you are.

Like I said before, maybe the issues of transportation, housing and infrastructure are simply the result of people who live in San Diego that shouldn't.

Maybe the guy who is able to take care of his business does not want to give up something like having an NFL team in his city so someone who is uneducated and unqualified to support a family they should not have had can live in their neighborhood.

Why do people like you feel that you have the exclusive rights to be elitist?
I just. Can't.

We can agree to disagree, I will take your opinion into consideration. I hope you have a good day.

Last edited by SDfan; Jun 8, 2015 at 4:28 PM.
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  #10632  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 6:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mello View Post
^^^ Why has this ignorant way of thinking become so pervasive in San Diego? Those who work fulltime jobs that pay under $15 dollars an hour should just up and move to Miwaukee, San Antonio, or Buffalo because they can't afford SD County? What percentage of jobs here actually pay enough for someone to live a decent basic life outside of their parents/families homes? Maybe 40%. So 50 to 60% of fulltime workers should just up and move to some place cheaper than here? Who will then do all the admin, retail, service jobs etc?

Article in the UT today said City of Carlsbad has not built any for rent apartments in 10 years and now rents in Cbad, Vista, and Oceanside have seriuosly ramped up. This is happening all over the county but we should just freeze our metro area in a time warp and not build any new apartments and have all the unfortunate ones take off? In other countries like Denmark and Norway they understand it takes everyone for society to function from the 7/11 clerk, to the Burger King worker, to a brain surgeon. All people deserve a decent place to live not just fortunate baby boomers who bought housing and then has seen their property values double or more.
Our local land-use decisions have been "democratized" to a select body property owners whose sole interest is maintaining their wealth, and creating modern-day covenants to keep "others" out. We need progressive planning developed and implemented by experts only. What we have going on now is systemic failure, ruining out communities - particularly, the poor, working class, and minority households. This is a real issue. This an actual problem. This is something that needs action.

Not a stadium for wealthy sportsman.
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  #10633  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 6:12 AM
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7th & Market proposal is sexy.
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  #10634  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 6:16 AM
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Originally Posted by spoonman View Post
You're a little insensitive about the importance of the Chargers. As a fellow advocate of this city, I would think that you would realize that the Chargers are a regional asset and amenity, which improves the profile of the city and could even help influence people to come to or stay in SD versus other cities.
I'm insensitive because this is such an insignificant issue compared to the very real problems we are facing as a region. I'm not sure I know of anyone who's said "Hmmm, I'll locate my business here because they have an NFL team," but I'm sure there have been plenty of people who maybe, might, kinda be curious about if we have a good jobs market, quality schools, and a robust infrastructure.
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  #10635  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 11:29 AM
dales5050 dales5050 is offline
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Originally Posted by mello View Post
^^^ Why has this ignorant way of thinking become so pervasive in San Diego? Those who work fulltime jobs that pay under $15 dollars an hour should just up and move to Miwaukee, San Antonio, or Buffalo because they can't afford SD County? What percentage of jobs here actually pay enough for someone to live a decent basic life outside of their parents/families homes? Maybe 40%. So 50 to 60% of fulltime workers should just up and move to some place cheaper than here? Who will then do all the admin, retail, service jobs etc?
Honest question here. Have you live anywhere besides San Diego or Southern California? My point was very harsh one but it was to prove a point.

The reason I asked this question is young people all over the US are 'forced' to leave the cities they grew up in to other places for better opportunities. That is just a reality.

Go read the various studies on the brain drain of the rust belt. They have lost hundreds of thousands of educated people over the last few decades because once you graduate from college you need to move to places where you can earn enough to pay back your school loans.

You said my question was ignorant but I think you're the one who lacks perspective.

Why is it OK for someone with a college degree to do a national search for a job and move to a city for the best opportunity but it's not OK for someone with a limited education to move to a part of the country where they would get more bang for their buck? Serious question.

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Originally Posted by mello View Post
Article in the UT today said City of Carlsbad has not built any for rent apartments in 10 years and now rents in Cbad, Vista, and Oceanside have seriously ramped up. This is happening all over the county but we should just freeze our metro area in a time warp and not build any new apartments and have all the unfortunate ones take off?
So where does it end? Oceanside is a bedroom community. It's 40 miles from downtown San Diego. At what point do you stop expanding San Diego?

I am not talking about infill. Smart urban development is key and I think everyone on this forum is a fan of it. But building apartments in Oceanside or Vista is NOT smart urban development. That's sprawl no matter how you try and spin it.

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Originally Posted by mello View Post
In other countries like Denmark and Norway they understand it takes everyone for society to function from the 7/11 clerk, to the Burger King worker, to a brain surgeon. All people deserve a decent place to live not just fortunate baby boomers who bought housing and then has seen their property values double or more.

I am not downplaying the roll of the service sector. Not in the slightest.

What I am saying is there are more than enough people to work in this sector living in San Diego County than what San Diego County needs. Of course you need people to make your coffee and cheeseburgers but the reality is you only need so many of these types of workers.

But you're last part about all people needing a decent place to live does not rule out WHERE they live.

There are many fine cities and towns all over the US. There are many places where you can raise a happy and healthy family. Where your kids can play in the yard and they can get a good education.


So again, and it's a pretty simple question, where does one get the right to live in a specific city?

Because if there is a line to get in, I want to know so I can get my papers for the right to live in a 3 bedroom 2 bath condo in Manhattan. I went to school and I do well for myself but I can't afford Manhattan AND set myself up for retirement.
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  #10636  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 12:00 PM
dales5050 dales5050 is offline
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Originally Posted by SDCAL View Post
Do you really want SD turning into another SF or Manhattan, an enclave where only the rich can live? I think communities thrive when you have people at all levels, yet those at the lower level can afford the basics. Manhattan and SF, once the great cultural centers of this country are now walled-off to anyone except wealthy Wall Street executives or dot com moguls. I don't think the answer to a great city is squeezing the lower income people out.
Not at all but San Diego will never become the next NYC or SF.

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Originally Posted by SDCAL View Post
So, who do you want to be the gatekeepers to keep those who "shouldn't be here" out? And what criteria would they use? Personally I'm OK with the USA being free, and citizens being able to move freely within our borders, but I do hear this very strange argument a lot that SD has too many people and should just stop building or try and cut-off anyone moving here. Then you take it to another level and suggest using economic criteria to exclude certain people, if I understand your viewpoint correctly?
What's the other side of this?

I am not saying to exclude people. What I am saying is to base economic development around inclusion first and foremost and always is just as unfair.

Do you add some more lanes to the 5 and 15? Do you continue to base all decisions on bringing up the bottom tier? When does it end?

Because everyone wants to live in San Diego. It's an amazing place. But it's a bit unfair to continue to keep asking the people who can live here to subsidize those who can't and then turn around and show complete contempt for something they want.

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Originally Posted by SDCAL View Post
Isn't part of living in a free market system that you take risks when you open a business? If someone opens a business and their business model is to profit from a sports stadium and after a decade that sports stadium decides to relocate, isn't that part of how a free market works? It's up to the business owner to make a contingency plan?
Yes. This is how it is supposed to work and this is how it will work.

But the people that work in these places and the people that own these places matter as well. They have contributed to the economy for years. They are all doing their part.

It's OK to have the opinion that they are expendable. It's OK to say that they are an accepted casualty of this process. But I don't really see that happening here.

I see people showing utter contempt for these people and their patrons because what they do does not matter to them. But they can't come to terms with just how one sided their view is.

Why is it ok to show contempt to this group but not another? Is that just byproduct of our politically correct society?

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Originally Posted by SDCAL View Post
And I really don't get your argument about how not retaining an NFL team encourages uneducated/poor families to move to the neighborhood.

I've heard a lot of arguments for keeping the Chargers here but must say this one is among the most bizarre. If I've somehow misunderstood your post, please feel free to correct me.
That point was a little abstract.

To clarify, some are saying that the Chargers should leave because the region has better things to focus on. But these are just opinions and some are stating them as facts.

The Chargers are a community asset and one not used by all but for sure used by many. The point is there is only so much of the pie but the pie should be shared by everyone. To many in San Diego, the Chargers are a part of their culture. Having an NFL team is important to them like having access to culturals is important to the next person.

When you live in a community you have to have a give and take. What I read here a lot is heck of a lot of taking with zero desire to give. It's a my way or the highway mindset.

Because of this, I shared an abstract version of this line of thinking and it proved my point. To many who read it, they reacted with the distain of how dare he say something so one sided.

It was a mirror and apparently some people don't like the view.



By the way, I am not a fan of the Chargers or the NFL in the slightest.
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  #10637  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 2:04 PM
dales5050 dales5050 is offline
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Originally Posted by SDCAL View Post
'we have commitments from Ritz Carlton Hotel Company, a world- class gourmet grocer and pre-leasing interest from two large office tenants to locate within the project'

40,000-square-foot gourmet grocer and market
184-room Ritz Carlton hotel
68 Ritz Carlton branded condominium units
168,000 square feet of Class A office space
110 market rate apartments
35 affordable housing units
2 ground floor restaurants associated with the hotel
6,000-square-foot public open space
248 public parking spaces



All differences of the Chargers to the side.....this is amazing news.
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  #10638  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 4:58 PM
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It's great to see a Ritz finally coming to DT. East Village is really booming.
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  #10639  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 5:57 PM
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That tower looks amazing.
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  #10640  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2015, 6:01 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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^^Awesome! 7th/Market looks great.
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