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  #321  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 12:09 AM
DavefromSt.Vital DavefromSt.Vital is offline
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My son also plays tackle football on a rep team. They were discussing "Deestroying" trying out for the Argos on the team bus to the game. Several kids said that before this happened they didn't realize that Toronto has a football team.

MLSE has got to break from the tradition of the last decade or so for the Argos and really boost the advertising budget.
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  #322  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 1:37 AM
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Originally Posted by DavefromSt.Vital View Post
My son also plays tackle football on a rep team. They were discussing "Deestroying" trying out for the Argos on the team bus to the game. Several kids said that before this happened they didn't realize that Toronto has a football team.

MLSE has got to break from the tradition of the last decade or so for the Argos and really boost the advertising budget.
That's why it looks like they are playing an exhibition game for kids

Sounds like there are some clued out kids there. When I was a kid we knew about all the sports teams from midget to major and we didn't have gadgets to get up to the minute news on them either. I'm not trying to defend how popular the Argos are or are not but if I played football I'm pretty sure I would have heard of them especially since they are in the papers and on the main sports channel. But I guess kids today don't read papers or watch TV, they only know what they can google.
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  #323  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 2:50 AM
DavefromSt.Vital DavefromSt.Vital is offline
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My son hopes to be one of several thousand kids at the school day game. I like the idea that they are charging $20 for tickets. Not a barrier for most but still a bit more of a commitment than a desire to skip school for the day.

If the Argos and MLSE are smart, the most commonly heard phrase throughout Varsity Stadium should be "Don't forget to follow us on social media".
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  #324  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 4:03 AM
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That's why it looks like they are playing an exhibition game for kids

Sounds like there are some clued out kids there. When I was a kid we knew about all the sports teams from midget to major and we didn't have gadgets to get up to the minute news on them either. I'm not trying to defend how popular the Argos are or are not but if I played football I'm pretty sure I would have heard of them especially since they are in the papers and on the main sports channel. But I guess kids today don't read papers or watch TV, they only know what they can google.
When a client took some people from my office to an Argos game about 10 years ago, several of the people from my office had literally never heard of them. I don't think that anyone other than me had any knowledge at all of the team beyond the name. It was about the equivalent of being taken to watch roller derby and learning that Toronto had some sort of "team" in it.
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  #325  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 1:11 PM
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When a client took some people from my office to an Argos game about 10 years ago, several of the people from my office had literally never heard of them. I don't think that anyone other than me had any knowledge at all of the team beyond the name. It was about the equivalent of being taken to watch roller derby and learning that Toronto had some sort of "team" in it.
I distinctly remember you making that point some time ago, that people in Toronto had gone from indifference concerning the Argos to not even knowing that the team exists.

I find that state of affairs perplexing... do people not read newspapers or watch the local news anymore?! Or for that matter, watch any sports on TSN? If you watch so much as one hour of TSN during the CFL season you will inevitably see promos for CFL games. Hell, the souvenir kiosks at Pearson still have some Argos merch available.

Fair enough if you don't have any opinions about Leo Cahill, DK Smith or Ricky Ray. But it seems to me that you would have to be really tuned out to not even know that the Argonauts exist?!
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  #326  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 1:34 PM
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Fair enough if you don't have any opinions about Leo Cahill, DK Smith or Ricky Ray. But it seems to me that you would have to be really tuned out to not even know that the Argonauts exist?!
Yeah, I can never quite believe that kind of stuff when I read it, it would be like me saying I never heard of Drake (or even a lesser profile rapper). I don't think I could pick him out of a lineup (I probably can), or recognize any of his "songs" (pretty sure I can't) but I have heard of him. I don't think I'd like to be around people that vacuous.

Last edited by elly63; May 27, 2019 at 1:45 PM.
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  #327  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 1:44 PM
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I distinctly remember you making that point some time ago, that people in Toronto had gone from indifference concerning the Argos to not even knowing that the team exists.
I don't think it's indifference, it's just one of those goofy Toronto status things, else wise we wouldn't always be seeing the usual suspects saying it's not the best etc.

I would hope the eggheads at MLSE will have finally come to the conclusion that the golden days of yore for the Argos are gone and they can't attract the attention of 6 million GTAers anymore. But all they have to do is find an extremely small niche of that number and they can be successful. That is something that TFC has done extremely well.
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  #328  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 1:59 PM
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I distinctly remember you making that point some time ago, that people in Toronto had gone from indifference concerning the Argos to not even knowing that the team exists.

I find that state of affairs perplexing... do people not read newspapers or watch the local news anymore?! Or for that matter, watch any sports on TSN? If you watch so much as one hour of TSN during the CFL season you will inevitably see promos for CFL games. Hell, the souvenir kiosks at Pearson still have some Argos merch available.

Fair enough if you don't have any opinions about Leo Cahill, DK Smith or Ricky Ray. But it seems to me that you would have to be really tuned out to not even know that the Argonauts exist?!
I also find this hard to believe. In many cases it's probably wilful or deliberate indifference. As in, it's seen as cool to say "the Argos... who are they?".

We often deplore on here how little attention the Toronto media gives to the Argos, and it's true they could do better (and the Argos themselves have been brutal at marketing themselves too) but if you actually pay attention to the GTA media the Argos are covered for sure. If you're not a sports fan I guess their existence is more obscure than that of some other clubs, but still...

Mayor Rob Ford was a big Argos fan and wore jerseys all the time, Pinball Clemons is quite visible in the community both inside and outside the football milieu, and as recently as 2012 the Argos won the Grey Cup on home turf and about half the population in the GTA tuned in to at least part of the broadcast.

So...
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  #329  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 2:02 PM
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Fair enough if you don't have any opinions about Leo Cahill, DK Smith or Ricky Ray. But it seems to me that you would have to be really tuned out to not even know that the Argonauts exist?!
Part of that also has something to do with the general dumbing down of society. The young guys at work think I'm some sort of encyclopedic genius on the subject of music but whereas I might know history as a matter of course, history isn't relevant to them at all. Obviously you know what goes on during your time but shouldn't you have a clue how things got to be that way? Hell, Elvis, Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry were before my time but I know who they are/were.
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  #330  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 2:02 PM
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I also find this hard to believe. In many cases it's probably wilful or deliberate indifference. As in, it's seen as cool to say "the Argos... who are they?".
Got it in one. The question is why?
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  #331  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 2:20 PM
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I distinctly remember you making that point some time ago, that people in Toronto had gone from indifference concerning the Argos to not even knowing that the team exists.
A very interesting thing about that came from Jeff Hunt of the RedBlacks. While they had to deal with the haterz with their lame chorus of football failed in Ottawa 50 times, he recognized that with indifference or really not knowing something exists then there are no negative preconceptions.

He apparently figured this out from his kids who didn't know the history of the Rough Riders so they didn't have the negative baggage to go with it and could be positively marketed to. Forgive the ending of the sentence with a preposition
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  #332  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 2:35 PM
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Part of that also has something to do with the general dumbing down of society. The young guys at work think I'm some sort of encyclopedic genius on the subject of music but whereas I might know history as a matter of course, history isn't relevant to them at all. Obviously you know what goes on during your time but shouldn't you have a clue how things got to be that way? Hell, Elvis, Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry were before my time but I know who they are/were.
This and the (hypothetical total invisiblity of the Argos) is also related to how today's world allows you to almost totally isolate yourself in your own silo. (All Kardashian All The Time!)

It's not that hard to find people who are totally oblivious and have no exposure to local affairs or even the public affairs of the country they live in.

You couldn't really do that before, and always had to at least come back to local radio or TV for at least some things. There was no way around them. Not so anymore.
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  #333  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 2:54 PM
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^This entirely. I try to listen to one CBC radio newscast a day and read CBC.ca for news and check BBC for world daily, but sometimes I don't and if that's the case then my media consumption consists of skyscraperpage, thegearpage (guitar / music), and my goodreads friends. It is not hard to see how most people would be even more closed off to their twitter/instagram/facebook feeds which can be very isolating for converse opinions.
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  #334  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 3:02 PM
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This and the (hypothetical total invisiblity of the Argos) is also related to how today's world allows you to almost totally isolate yourself in your own silo. (All Kardashian All The Time!)

It's not that hard to find people who are totally oblivious and have no exposure to local affairs or even the public affairs of the country they live in.

You couldn't really do that before, and always had to at least come back to local radio or TV for at least some things. There was no way around them. Not so anymore.
Lot of truth in that
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  #335  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 3:14 PM
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I distinctly remember you making that point some time ago, that people in Toronto had gone from indifference concerning the Argos to not even knowing that the team exists.
The only thing i'll add to this is something that i've tried to pay attention to in my many times visiting larger cities and, in particular, Toronto. It goes without saying that it's a massive city, especially on a Canadian scale. Any one single event can be lost in a dizzying sea of activity where there are endless entertainment, food, and social options.

The thing about being a sports team in such a large city is that you have to find some sort of way to be relevant. Whether that's winning championships, being affiliated with celebrities or other teams, or just being popular in general. If you're not in you'll be quickly forgotten about. There's no time to sit around thinking about things when you can go out and get something better. There have been quite a few weekends i've spent with friends where sports didn't even come up on the radar because we were too busy going to shows, or eating, or just hanging out. A team like the Argos aren't going to be as visible in a giant, world city like Toronto like they're visible in Ottawa or Hamilton or Regina. It's simply bigger with more things to do, and one can easily be washed away by malls and eating and anything else to do instead.

How many Torontonians do we think are aware of the Rock? Or Wolfpack? Or Arrows? It's probably very few. The Argos, at least IMO, aren't that much of a step up from something like an NLL team in a market like that. People absorb things in Toronto if they're the very best, or the best you're able to get in such a large city. Why go watch lacrosse when the Jays play tomorrow? Why go watch rugby when X is opening down the street tomorrow? You're only really going to get the diehards of that sport or the odd casual fan who's been invited or saw some promotion for the team.

Toronto is such an endless maze of options that it's not surprising to me that the Argos are an unknown. I know the older demographic on this forum scoffs at the idea that a CFL team is an unknown in any Canadian city but younger people are genuinely separated from local events and especially local sports events. Everything is consumed from a wide web of whatever shows up on their social feeds and sports simply don't register with younger people like they did ten or twenty years ago. At least, not with the same width of brush anyway.

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Originally Posted by esquire
I find that state of affairs perplexing... do people not read newspapers or watch the local news anymore?! Or for that matter, watch any sports on TSN? If you watch so much as one hour of TSN during the CFL season you will inevitably see promos for CFL games. Hell, the souvenir kiosks at Pearson still have some Argos merch available.
To this point I will say: no, at least not young people. Young people don't read newspapers or watch local news. They might watch TSN but there's twenty different options out there, too. Thery're more likely going to be watching Instagram/Youtube/Snapchat than any boring cable TV network that charges you a subscription fee AND shows paid commercials. If young people want to watch sports they'll either stream it at home or go out to a bar with friends - and when you're at a bar or out watching it somewhere it doesn't really matter what channel it's on as long as the game is on (and nobody is likely paying attention to the promo spots during commercials).

Going out to watch the Raptors this postseason at bars in a non-Toronto city has been a pretty interesting litmus test to what I try to get across on this forum and on others. The one thing to take away from the Raptors win in Game 6 is that the crowd was overwhelmingly younger than any other sport i've followed. There were 100 people in my bar in boring Ottawa and they were all under 35 and passionate about the game unfolding. A lot of it is bandwagon, sure, but basketball and the NBA has the power to create and ride that bandwagon for all its glory. The Raptors are doing this now, the Jays did this a few years ago, and the Leafs have the power to do this. They're probably the only three teams in Canada today that can pack bars out in non-local cities whilst simultaneously getting 30-50K people on the streets after a game.

How do the Argos become relevant again? It's not a simple answer, and a lot of it is going to ride on the general societal viewpoint of the CFL and football as a whole. How do you make the Argos relevant in a city where there's four or five more popular sports teams? How do you make the CFL more relevant when the NFL is such a juggernaut? How do you make football more compelling for young people vis-a-vis other sports? They're all questions I don't really have an answer to, and they likely won't have simple answers.
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  #336  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 4:13 PM
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The Raptors are doing this now, the Jays did this a few years ago, and the Leafs have the power to do this. They're probably the only three teams in Canada today that can pack bars out in non-local cities whilst simultaneously getting 30-50K people on the streets after a game.

.
Within the confines of Quebec, the Montreal Canadiens can definitely pull this off. If you go anywhere from Rouyn-Noranda to Baie-Comeau, sports bars will packed for Habs playoff games and even hyped-up regular season games. Especially if they are on Saturday nights.

Needless to say, none of the Raptors, Jays or Leafs have this impact in Quebec.
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  #337  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 4:18 PM
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People absorb things in Toronto if they're the very best, or the best you're able to get in such a large city..
Or at least, what they perceive to be the best.

And even then. The Argos are the best calibre of gridiron football available in Toronto and in Canada.

MLS isn't anywhere near the best when it comes to soccer, but it's the best available in the U.S. context. That's good enough for some Torontonians even though MLS is a lot lower on the soccer pecking order than the CFL is on the gridiron football pecking order.

Anyway...
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  #338  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 4:24 PM
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How do the Argos become relevant again? It's not a simple answer, and a lot of it is going to ride on the general societal viewpoint of the CFL and football as a whole. How do you make the Argos relevant in a city where there's four or five more popular sports teams? How do you make the CFL more relevant when the NFL is such a juggernaut? How do you make football more compelling for young people vis-a-vis other sports? They're all questions I don't really have an answer to, and they likely won't have simple answers.
I am going to say this with the best of (and truthful) intentions and not as part of our personal CFL/MLS battle. Substitute MLS for CFL above and you have the exact same thing.

MLS is not the best, not even on this continent, the EPL is the juggernaut that keeps more soccer folk from embracing MLS, with their own brand of snobbery. How then did TFC become successful drawing to the stadium? And why can't the Argos duplicate it? To me both teams face many similar issues.

I just finished reading an article from the late 80s on the death of the CFL. That is what gives me hope. Every single team (save Edmonton) was able to turn around from great adversity, some even dropping out of the league. In a market that size the Argos can find a niche, it would be nice if there was a little help rather than hindrance to go along with it but it is reassuring that MLSE is in for the long term.

The Argos are an iconic brand, one of the oldest in North America, it would be a shame to lose that but some of the stuff I am reading about a slow and steady rebuild gives me confidence. They don't need 6 million fans, just 25K.
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  #339  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 4:30 PM
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Within the confines of Quebec, the Montreal Canadiens can definitely pull this off. If you go anywhere from Rouyn-Noranda to Baie-Comeau, sports bars will packed for Habs playoff games and even hyped-up regular season games. Especially if they are on Saturday nights.

Needless to say, none of the Raptors, Jays or Leafs have this impact in Quebec.
Conversely, there is no question the Raptors and Jays can draw fans out west, but the Leafs can't. I mean, any Canadian NHL doing well will draw some bandwagon fans the way Vancouver did in 2011, but they won't be cheered on as a de facto home team the way the Raptors and Jays are. Local NHL loyalties prevent that from happening.
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  #340  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 4:44 PM
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Jays and Raptors fandom on the West coast shows how the media still has power, as that is largely the creation of TSN, Sportsnet and company.

The absence of Jays and Raptors fandom in Quebec is also a sign of media power as people are plugged in to RDS and TVA Sports instead. The top story by far here this weekend was the Memorial Cup which I noticed was totally shoved aside by the anglo networks who were all Raptors.
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