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  #141  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2008, 2:44 PM
hagbard hagbard is offline
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Originally Posted by graupner View Post
Carnegie Foundation is a non-profit organisation. It doesn't seek profit. If you hope demand to be filled by non-profit organisations, than you will wait a long time.

Harvard was founded by the ancestor of the government of Massachusetts, and Yale was founded by the ancestor of Connecticut. They were not created by private corporations.
You're the only one saying "private corporations", you're basically arguing with yourself. Enjoy.


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As for the NY subway, it was built and operated by private corporations after receiving massive money for local governments.
Don't think so. Provide documentation.

Quote:
Today, it is 100% public.
Your argument was that only gov't could create a subway, I pointed out the NY Subway was privately created.


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For the transcontinental railway, if it would not have been built, Alberta and British-Columbia would be american now.
It was a question of deadline. If the railway was not built, they were joining the USA. For a government, it was more profitable on the very long term to keep such huge piece of land.
What were the advantage for a private corporation to build a railway to nowhere??
Access to resources.

Quote:
I would like to hear your opinion on how private offer would have prevented that ??
Prevented what?
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  #142  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2009, 10:57 AM
The Geographer The Geographer is offline
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No private corporation would have ever built it through northern Ontario. Any rail line to the west would have been anchored in St. Paul if done by private investment. It would have been a vehicle for American colonization and economic integration with the states, not the St. Lawrence.

The whole thing was a nation-building exercise, and one that worked spectacularly. Without it, Canada most likely would not exist in its present form.
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  #143  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2009, 6:00 AM
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Talk about train delays: It took a year to commission study
High-speed train is still on side tracks while Ottawa is looking for projects

HENRY AUBIN
The Gazette

Tuesday, January 27, 2009

On Jan, 10, 2008, the premiers of Quebec, Ontario, and the federal government announced they were jointly ordering a study updating earlier research on a proposed high-speed rail line along the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. They said they expected the study to be finished in a year.

It's now been a year. What does the study say?

The question, it turns out, is rather premature. Work on the study has not yet even started.

Too bad. If the study were done, and if its conclusions were to support a high-speed rail project, early work on the scheme might be eligible for billions of dollars in infrastructure money that today's federal budget will make available. The Harper government's aim is to pour the infrastructure money into projects that are shovel-ready - that is, that can get under way within a year or so and thus combat the recession by creating jobs.

The delay reflects directly on the Charest government. Quebec, Ontario and Ottawa are equal partners in the study, each chipping in a third of the $3-million cost, but Quebec is in charge of the tendering process.

The province did not ask for tenders until July, a spokesperson for Quebec Transport Minister Julie Boulet told me yesterday. All three partners agreed in December that one company was best. The terms of the contract, however, will be under discussion at least until February.

A new line between Quebec City and Windsor - and particularly between Montreal and Toronto - has been studied repeatedly in recent decades. Two competing approaches have been at issue.

One concept, known in its native France as the TGV style (for train à grande vitesse), could cruise at upward of 300 kilometres per hour. It could slash the Montreal-Toronto travel time to two hours and 20 minutes from the current four hours and 20 minutes. The second concept, the rapid train, could go about 200 kilometres per hour and cover the same distance in three hours and 15 minutes.

In an interview that La Presse published this month, posthumously, Jean Pelletier revealed just how close the federal government had come to building a high-speed train.

When his stint as Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's chief of staff was coming to an end, Chrétien offered him a Senate seat or the ambassadorship to France. Pelletier rejected both, saying he wanted to become chairman of VIA Rail for one reason - to make the TGV-type train a reality. Chrétien told him to go for it.

After arriving at VIA in 2001, Pelletier found that the TGV-type model was prohibitively expensive - $12 billion. He settled for a $3-billion rapid train. Chrétien was ready to approve it but left office before he could do so. His successor, Paul Martin, was not interested. "I came within a hair of having it," said Pelletier.

Will the cost of TGV still be prohibitive a year from now, when the Quebec-Ontario-Ottawa study is supposed to be done? Will anti-recession money still be available at that time? It's too soon to say, but it's not too early to note that the case for the TGV will be stronger than ever once Canada, following the Obama administration's lead, gets serious about reducing greenhouse-gas emissions.

The rapid train would, like today's VIA trains, rely on diesel fuel, which emits greenhouse gases. The TGV-type locomotive, however, could be a hybrid, relying on both diesel and electricity (much of it from Quebec's clean hydro sources). As Transport 2000's David Jeanes points out, the train would be able to use electricity most of the time.

The faster concept's job-creation potential would also be greater. A dedicated track, required for much of the route, would require abundant manpower. Bombardier could build the rolling stock.

One of the arguments against the TGV-style concept is that fares for, say, a family of four would be much pricier than the cost of driving. But that argument ignores the likelihood that gasoline prices in the future will soar as oil supplies dwindle.

The contrast between high-speed rail and the Charest government's stock-still performance is appalling. It's time to get rolling.

Henry Aubin is The Gazette's regional-affairs columnist.

haubin@thegazette.canwest.com

© The Gazette (Montreal) 2009
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  #144  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2009, 7:01 AM
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Lightbulb

That's the major problem with starting high speed rail train projects. How fast is enough?

Quote:
One concept, known in its native France as the TGV style (for train à grande vitesse), could cruise at upward of 300 kilometres per hour. It could slash the Montreal-Toronto travel time to two hours and 20 minutes from the current four hours and 20 minutes. The second concept, the rapid train, could go about 200 kilometres per hour and cover the same distance in three hours and 15 minutes.
After arriving at VIA in 2001, Pelletier found that the TGV-type model was prohibitively expensive - $12 billion. He settled for a $3-billion rapid train.
It's 539 km between Toronto and Montreal, per Google Maps.
Some math:
539 km/4.33 hrs= 124.5 km/hr= 77 mph (Existing train)
539 km/3.25 hrs= 167 km/hr= 104 mph (Faster train)
539 km/2.33 hrs= 231 km/hr= 143.5 mph (TGV train)

The faster train recommended in 2001 or so was probably the Bombardier's JetTrain locomotive capable of 150 mph speed. It's apparent from these numbers that the average speed is much lower than maximum speed of the trains. There must be miles and miles of slow track along the route.





Bombardier also tried to sell it to Amtrak. It's basically a re-engined Amtrak Acela locomotive. The major reason it was so much cheaper was it didn't require installing electric power lines and traction equipment. They could have used Acela's car sets, saving on design and tooling costs. It could have used the existing rail lines with just minor refurbishing and rebuilding for faster speeds.

It could also be completely assembled in Canada. Not a bad choice for any Canadian government to make.
I'm not so sure TGV would have assembled any of their TGV train in Canada.

TGV train


Back to my original question, how fast is fast enough? Per this Wikipedia article,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_speed_train

HSR is best suited for journeys of 2 - 3 hours (150-600 km or about 100-400 miles), for which the train can beat both air and car in this range......However, anecdotally, competition authorities in Europe treat HSR for city pairs as competitive with passenger air at 4-4.5 hours.

Golly, the existing VIA trains met that! Therefore, the $3 Billion Bombardier train was probably good enough, considering its price tag is 25% of the $12 Billion TGV train, and all of that was probably going to be spent in Canada. I bet spending just slightly more refurbishing the tracks on the route by adding a few more grade separations, or skipping a station stop or two along the way, could have reduced the total time to that magical 3 hour mark.

Last edited by electricron; Jan 28, 2009 at 7:27 AM.
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  #145  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2009, 10:42 PM
AndrewToronto3D AndrewToronto3D is offline
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Or we could get the good TGV.

539 km/0:56 hrs= 574.8 km/hr= 357.1 mph (TGV train)



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  #146  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2009, 4:31 AM
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Originally Posted by AndrewToronto3D View Post
Or we could get the good TGV.

539 km/0:56 hrs= 574.8 km/hr= 357.1 mph (TGV train)



That was a specially set up train to break the speed record, it was not what they would use for commercial service; it had very few passengers cars compared to a normal train. Furthermore, you're not taking into account the acceleration/deceleration times, nor the stops in between TO and MTL (if any).

ignore this post if your comment was tongue-in-cheek, I can't really tell.




electricron, is that a point to point distance, or one that follows a potential HSR alignment?
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  #147  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2009, 6:22 PM
AndrewToronto3D AndrewToronto3D is offline
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It was.
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  #148  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2009, 6:49 PM
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Personally I'd love to see a Mag-Lev train, I know it would cost far more then any other system but over time it would pay for itself. No need for fuel, little maintenance, no pollution (from the engine), little noise and is safer then conventional rail as the train is locked into the track. It would show the world that Canada is a forward thinker investing in infrastructure that will move us when oil becomes to expensive to be used as a fuel source.There are predictions that the world is closer then once thought to a major oil shortage crisis so now is the time. It would be great to see the entire country linked together by Mag-Lev trains. At top speeds around 430km/h a non stop Vancouver to Toronto trip could be done in with a few slower spots through Alberta and B.C around 12hrs. So about 4 to 5 hours more then heading to the airport. How cool would it be to see a huge portion of the country in a single day at or near ground level? I also wonder if they could install solar panels along the length of the track if the system could power itself.

I know this won't happen it's just a pipe dream, so don't be calling me a fool!
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  #149  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2009, 7:12 PM
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^ fool

Seriously though, clearly HSR's most useful purpose is to replace short haul flights or drives of between 3-10 hours.


Toronto to Montreal and ultimately, Windsor and Quebec make a whole lot of sense. Edmonton-Calgary is the only other really logical route I can think of. If Calgary-Vancouver didn't have a million mountains in the way - that might make sense too.
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  #150  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2010, 1:25 AM
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Speaking to a news conference alongside Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty, Charest recalled that U.S. President Barack Obama has expressed interest in linking to an eventual rail network between the provinces.

When Ottawa was distributing stimulus cash last year, it was targeting infrastructure projects that would generate jobs and kickstart the economy quickly.

"Let's stop a moment to appreciate the situation here: it would, after all, be ironic if we actually did more with the federal government of the United States than we did with the federal government of Canada on developing a fast train," Charest said.

"We want to bring our full support behind this project, so absolutely, the federal government needs to be part of this, and every political party we expect needs to speak to this.

"It's that important a project and one that Dalton and I are totally committed to."

The premiers said early research indicates a high-speed train network between their provinces would be viable.

McGuinty predicted a rail link would enhance economic productivity and improve quality of life for 16 million Canadians.

"It is a game-changer," McGuinty told reporters in Quebec City.

"So when we build this line here, it's more than just connecting 16 million Canadians together, strengthening our regional economy, better protecting our regional environment.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/can...-96508039.html
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  #151  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2010, 1:39 AM
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legasp!

I reeeeealy want this to happen

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  #152  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2010, 1:59 AM
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I have a feeling that if the provinces were to try and work more with the US federal government than our own, that would probably be all the motivation our government would need to get HSR implemented across the country in a decade.
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  #153  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2010, 2:03 AM
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If only we had a Billion dollars we could spend towards something useful...

... Or a fake lake.

Yeah, I don't see this happening under- or at least with- Harper.
But if we can get everything together, we could have HSR for 2025.

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  #154  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2010, 2:18 AM
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At this rate it will be possible to travel from Portugal to Indonesia entirely on high speed trains before it will be possible to travel between Toronto and Montreal on such trains.
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  #155  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2010, 2:58 AM
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Well, VIA is at least getting faster from Toronto to Montreal. It will be quicker than driving.
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  #156  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2010, 4:45 AM
amor de cosmos amor de cosmos is offline
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btw there are people in the US (example) who say there are idle factories & skilled auto workers who have been laid off & could start manufacturing trains instead. I wonder if that could work in Canada, since I have a feeling the layoffs/unemployment/etc was much worse in the US. I'm sure it would have some effect but maybe not as much in Detroit for example.
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  #157  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2010, 6:25 AM
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^ Not nearly to that extent. The *point* of trains is to fit more bodies into a vehicle. From that alone, it will take a lot less resources to produce the carriages than if those passengers were driving instead. Besides, modern trains can last 30 years in good condition. You can't do anything near that with an average car.

Bottom line: laid off factory workers should probably not get their hopes up.
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  #158  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2010, 12:23 PM
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Thunder Bay's Bombardier plant has solid employment until about 2020 thanks to the TTC alone. A major HSR project could employ ones of thousands for almost a decade in vehicle development alone! And think of how many new Chinese-Canadians we'll earn during the construction of the lines!
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  #159  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2010, 7:35 PM
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I am sure we will see another 100 or so feasibility studies before any construction. Every announcement is another trial balloon. Build the fucker, already.
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  #160  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2011, 1:41 AM
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I just thought I would bump this thread for any further discussion which is now taking place on this in the Federal Election Thread.

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