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  #61  
Old Posted May 4, 2018, 5:21 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by Eightball View Post
Cleveland isn't Nashville tho (they have a heavy rail line and other transit infrastructure)
also, the healthline down euclid is probably the premier brt line in the country.

there is no need to start at that kind of expensive level as yet.

i agree that a more typical brt express route could be done much more cheaply on a trial basis to gage interest before deciding to invest in more a more heavy duty brt operation like the healthline. nashville could build it up to that level later if it takes. seems like a fiscally responsible and transit positive action to take next i would say. it probably would not even need a levy to try it out.
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  #62  
Old Posted May 4, 2018, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
also, the healthline down euclid is probably the premier brt line in the country.

there is no need to start at that kind of expensive level as yet.

i agree that a more typical brt express route could be done much more cheaply on a trial basis to gage interest before deciding to invest in more a more heavy duty brt operation like the healthline. nashville could build it up to that level later if it takes. seems like a fiscally responsible and transit positive action to take next i would say. it probably would not even need a levy to try it out.
It should be a demonstration project, ie small but permanent and with some clearly improved infrastructure. Any trial project that requires very little investment, will not demonstrate much of anything. It will not win over many voters. It could be easily perceived as the lose, lose situation previously mentioned.
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  #63  
Old Posted May 4, 2018, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
DC is highly centralized and has like 700k federal employees, all who are tax-incentivized to ride Metro, so couldn't be more different than Nashville.
The Washington metro population was 1.7 million circa 1968 when Metro was funded. That's exactly what Nashville is at now.

I don't see any commentators who are familiar with how Nashville is physically laid out. It has one of the most complicated layouts in the United States, filled with all sorts of nuance that isn't obvious on Google Maps or even when driving around. Superficially it looks like an ordinary place but it is far from it. I asked for specific recommendations from the nay-sayers. They don't even know the street names. They don't know how to pronounce Demonbreun.

Nashville is going to blow past places like Cleveland in size in the 2020s so let's not hear about the Health Line. It's small-time and Nashville needs a big-time solution.
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  #64  
Old Posted May 4, 2018, 8:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
The Washington metro population was 1.7 million circa 1968 when Metro was funded. That's exactly what Nashville is at now.
Rail transit viability has nothing to do with population.

Prague has a metro area of under 2 million and has higher ridership than Chicago, which is five times the size. LA has a metro of 19 million and heavy rail still doesn't seem to generate ridership. Dallas has nearly 8 million, and its light rail has been an epic boondoggle.
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  #65  
Old Posted May 4, 2018, 9:35 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Dallas has nearly 8 million, and its light rail has been an epic boondoggle.
The Dallas system prioritized distance and speed over a downtown subway and building real neighborhoods around arterials.

The Nashville plan was the complete opposite. The Nashville system was about retrofitting a car city into a dense and walkable place.

Still have seen no specific criticism or specific alternative ideas. Only vague criticism and vague ideas.
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  #66  
Old Posted May 5, 2018, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Still have seen no specific criticism or specific alternative ideas. Only vague criticism and vague ideas.
No, it's that you aren't listening.

Nashville has no inherent characteristics for high capacity transit. None. No centralization, density, transit orientation or pedestrian culture. If Nashville had 10 million people, nothing would be different. There is no example, anywhere on the planet, where a city like Nashville became transit oriented by building a rail system.

Nashville could build the Tokyo system while they're at it, it still won't change anything.
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  #67  
Old Posted May 5, 2018, 5:08 PM
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my knee-jerk take on this is that the way that inland cities have got transit projects done is by biting off a little at a time like kc did with the streetcar, st. louis with metro extensions, etc. splashy denver style plans don't fly...one like this one went down in flames in kansas city some years ago the same way and i don't think nashville looked around for lessons learned as the apply to sprawly interior regions...
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  #68  
Old Posted May 5, 2018, 5:12 PM
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i could be wrong, but i don't think this had any accompanying expressway improvements...i think even denver dangled that carrot...this absolutely should have been part of the nashville plan, politically speaking...if they were interested in it passing...i think there was some hubris, here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
It has one of the most complicated layouts in the United States, filled with all sorts of nuance that isn't obvious on Google Maps or even when driving around. Superficially it looks like an ordinary place but it is far from it. I asked for specific recommendations from the nay-sayers. They don't even know the street names. They don't know how to pronounce Demonbreun.
to be sure, cincinnati is probably an order of magnitude more convoluted when you consider the amount of the city that is tucked away in bizarre corners (and of course famously also had a transit plan go down in smoke, unfortunately). i've yet to really get lost in nashville although it certainly is no chicago when it comes to a rigid urban grid, i will give you that. what is very apparent is the lack of large-scope regional infrastructure improvements, which this plan obviously was taking a crack at. the stroads going out of nashville are terrible on multiple levels, and the city never developed much of a higher capacity urban boulevard system from what i can tell.

the larger problem is the lack of funding for transit and urban improvements at the state level (as well as national of course) in red states. we get nothing from missouri for our metro extensions in st. louis and of course are way behind. in don't know what tennessee was going to kick in but my guess is not much...
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Last edited by Centropolis; May 5, 2018 at 6:02 PM.
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  #69  
Old Posted May 5, 2018, 8:23 PM
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Seattle's $70 billion isn't helped by the State either, aside from allowing the local area to vote to tax itself.

The BRT-lite idea isn't bad. Three or four lines radiating from Downtown, with say six-minute frequency and some speed improvements...grow the subset of people who can mostly use transit, and make it permanent and branded so the urban format can be more urban...maybe even some urban-type parking ratios in new buildings eventually. Let the transit culture grow.

Nashville has virtually no transit ridership. In the 2016 ACS, in-city residents had a 2.2% transit commute share. Walking was 2.0% and bikes 0.2%. Each of those is about as bad as it gets for a core city in the US. Driving alone was 89.5%. The vote might have been very different if the typical office had maybe 20% transit ridership and most people at least knew a few transit commuters.
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  #70  
Old Posted May 6, 2018, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Seattle's $70 billion isn't helped by the State either, aside from allowing the local area to vote to tax itself.
The Sound Transit jurisdiction is gigantic by comparison to Davidson County. Counties in the South are typically 25%~ smaller than those in North, and much smaller than those in the West.



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Let the transit culture grow.
Yeah, people should only ride propeller planes and develop an airplane "culture" before riding on jets.
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  #71  
Old Posted May 6, 2018, 4:59 PM
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Yeah, people should only ride propeller planes and develop an airplane "culture" before riding on jets.
Agreed 100%. If a city had only a small regional airport with a few short-haul propeller flights and minimal demand, it would be odd to suddenly have a huge multi-billion dollar expansion to offer frequent long haul jet flights. Unless there was a known source of demand somewhere else in the region such as a major overcapacity airport nearby.
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  #72  
Old Posted May 6, 2018, 5:01 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
No, it's that you aren't listening.

Nashville has no inherent characteristics for high capacity transit. None.
Have you been there?

There is no way for buses or any other street-running vehicle to efficiently traverse the mile between the statehouse and SoBro. Downtown's only wide street, Broadway, is a dead-end, and is situated perpendicular to the spine of growth. https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1615...7i13312!8i6656

The answer is a tunnel, and the cost of rail is only incrementally higher than a bus-only tunnel.
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  #73  
Old Posted May 6, 2018, 7:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Agreed 100%. If a city had only a small regional airport with a few short-haul propeller flights and minimal demand, it would be odd to suddenly have a huge multi-billion dollar expansion to offer frequent long haul jet flights. Unless there was a known source of demand somewhere else in the region such as a major overcapacity airport nearby.
Kudos for your signature literally being my near favorite quote of all time, but I cannot tell if your comment is genius satire or evident of mental illness
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  #74  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 10:39 AM
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next up for nashville ... gondolas:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashvill...e-sky-for.html
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  #75  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 3:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
The Dallas system prioritized distance and speed over a downtown subway and building real neighborhoods around arterials.

The Nashville plan was the complete opposite. The Nashville system was about retrofitting a car city into a dense and walkable place.

Still have seen no specific criticism or specific alternative ideas. Only vague criticism and vague ideas.
And presumably it is this sort of thoroughgoing cultural overhaul that Nashvillians roundly rejected.
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  #76  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 4:09 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
The Washington metro population was 1.7 million circa 1968 when Metro was funded. That's exactly what Nashville is at now.

I don't see any commentators who are familiar with how Nashville is physically laid out. It has one of the most complicated layouts in the United States, filled with all sorts of nuance that isn't obvious on Google Maps or even when driving around. Superficially it looks like an ordinary place but it is far from it. I asked for specific recommendations from the nay-sayers. They don't even know the street names. They don't know how to pronounce Demonbreun.

Nashville is going to blow past places like Cleveland in size in the 2020s so let's not hear about the Health Line. It's small-time and Nashville needs a big-time solution.


oh please -- stop assuming. i lived in nashville and cleveland (and cinci and columbus and toledo).

there is no comparison. the fact is cle has a long and varied transit history. everyone knows someone who uses public transit, be it bus, brt, light or heavy rail and even commuter rail back when we had it.

nashville is entirely car dominated and has the longest of ways to go before it blows by anyone. one single brt test line would be light years above what is happening there, much less a full brt bells and whistles buildout like the healthline.

and btw there is nothing small time about about brt and the cle brt healthline, it's 7 miles long with 60 stations, it increased ridership 50%, and per wiki 'The Healthline is the top rated BRT system in the United States with a Silver rating according to the BRT Standard.' since you don't know a thing about it fyi that is the standard used for brt around the world and most if not all of these brt cities are far larger than nashville:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRT_Standard
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  #77  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 7:29 PM
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I am surprised that Cleveland's BRT was rated higher than Ottawa's, which largely ran in an exclusive right of way with grade separated intersections except downtown. Ottawa is smaller than Nashville and is now replacing parts of its BRT with LRT to meet greater capacity needs.
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  #78  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 7:52 PM
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Nashville's transit ridership compared to other bus-based systems in 2017:
Code:
Ottawa (OC Transpo): 139,654,900
Seattle (KC Metro):  127,499,500
San Antonio (VIA):    37,353,000
Austin (Cap Metro):   28,332,200
Albany (CDTA):        16,654,100
Cincinatti (SORTA):   14,491,700
Champaign (MTD):      11,553,500
Nashville (MTA):       9,599,500
If no one is using the bus lines, it is pointless to upgrade them to higher capacity like light rail or subway. One step at a time. Expand the bus system first. When the buses can no longer handle the ridership, then it will be time to think about light rail.
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  #79  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 8:25 PM
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^Holy shiz, less than Champaign-Urbana, IL, a college town? That is bad.
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  #80  
Old Posted May 11, 2018, 2:54 PM
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^It was worse in 2010 -- only 7.5 million, peaked in 2014 and since then Nashville has had 3 consecutive years of declining bus ridership numbers. Uber and Lyft are picking off bus riders.
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