Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I think Ducey has been doing a fine job, The issue with transit is municipal not state.

Furthermore CityLab wrote yesterday in favor of NY's Insane rent control laws so they can go pound sand as far as I am concerned.

Yeah, don't know if the Ducey/autonomous vehicle example really supports the thesis of criticizing "transportation" decisions motivated by FOMO. I think Ducey laying out the red carpet for autonomous vehicles had exactly nothing to do with transportation, and everything to do with Ducey seeing himself as an economic development governor creating a pro-business atmosphere and trying to attract high-profile companies to locate and operate here.

While not diminishing the tragedy for the people directly involved, it's also strange to me that the one death caused by autonomous vehicles is used as an indictment of the technology. I don't think we're going to see CityLab railing against cycling because of the two pedestrians killed in collisions with cyclists in 2015 in the UK.

EDIT: yeah, what Obadno said.

[combusean]

Leadership on the high cost of Tucson/Phoenix rail is absolutely a state issue, but Phoenix has been tepid at best on the subject.

Ducey has just been more about screwing California over (not that anyone here wants AV testing) than providing coherent transportation policy.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by combusean

Leadership on the high cost of Tucson/Phoenix rail is absolutely a state issue, but Phoenix has been tepid at best on the subject.

Ducey has just been more about screwing California over (not that anyone here wants AV testing) than providing coherent transportation policy.

I disagree we should absolutely want AV testing. This is the next major phase of vehicle transportation and getting the initial investment and groundwork will provide growth for the state for decades as the self-driving revolution for everything from personal autos to planes develops over the next 30 to 40 years.

People seem to think AV stuff will be tested for 4 or 5 years and then it will be adopted by all vehicles but that isnt the case its likely to take a generation before the majority of people will be comfortable with self driving cars so it will be a decades long industry to have in the state.

I would also, of course, push Tech, Finance, Logistics, Manufacturing, Aerospace (heavy on the space) These are all robust long term industries for Arizona to continue to grow in.

Also the Healthcare/Retiree/Leasure industrial complex we used to rely more on, that will also always have a market.

[azsunsurfer]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I disagree we should absolutely want AV testing. This is the next major phase of vehicle transportation and getting the initial investment and groundwork will provide growth for the state for decades as the self-driving revolution for everything from personal autos to planes develops over the next 30 to 40 years.

People seem to think AV stuff will be tested for 4 or 5 years and then it will be adopted by all vehicles but that isnt the case its likely to take a generation before the majority of people will be comfortable with self driving cars so it will be a decades long industry to have in the state.

I would also, of course, push Tech, Finance, Logistics, Manufacturing, Aerospace (heavy on the space) These are all robust long term industries for Arizona to continue to grow in.

Also the Healthcare/Retiree/Leasure industrial complex we used to rely more on, that will also always have a market.

I concur!

[combusean]

I meant nobody in California wants AV testing. Those things were menaces on the road before they finally banned the stupid things. Was on 280 where cruising speeds hit 85 and one was doing about 40, and I seem to recall they had their fair share of accidents prior to that. I think they were banned within a few days of that incident.

At least Cruise Automation is doing it somewhat right, training them at low speeds in the difficult environment of SF before letting them loose on 45 MPH fair-weather arterials like in Arizona.

I am still not convinced they will make anyone's life significantly better within the next 10 years. In fact, it's obnoxious that people are holding back on investments in established transportation needs today for an elusive someday that AVs and related gimmicks like Hyperloop may never provide.

[combusean]

I meant nobody in California wants AV testing. Those things were menaces on the road before they finally banned the stupid things. Was on 280 where cruising speeds hit 85 and one was doing about 40, and I seem to recall they had their fair share of accidents prior to that. I think they were banned within a few days of that incident.

At least Cruise Automation is doing it somewhat right, training them at low speeds in the difficult environment of SF before letting them loose on 45 MPH fair-weather arterials like in Arizona.

I am still not convinced they will make anyone's life significantly better within the next 10 years. In fact, it's obnoxious that people are holding back on investments in established transportation needs today for an elusive someday that AVs and related gimmicks like Hyperloop may never provide.

[azsunsurfer]

Uber is moving forward with its Drone and Flying Car centers. I believe the first one will open in Texas some time after 2020?

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I think Ducey has been doing a fine job, The issue with transit is municipal not state.

Furthermore CityLab wrote yesterday in favor of NY's Insane rent control laws so they can go pound sand as far as I am concerned.

EDIT: After reading it they seem to think Ducey's support of Autonomous cars is a transportation play but I dont see that at all, I see it as a play for tech and automotive business and supply lines.

Autonomous vehicles provide a huge economic opportunity for high paid R&D and good pay manufacturing for sensors and optics, automotive parts and of course endless testers. Its rarely used as an example of our future transit and always as an economic development win.

I've heard Sal DiCiccio, among many other conservatives and libertarians, make claims that we shouldn't invest in public transit because fleets of robot taxis will make trains and buses obsolete within a few years. As for Ducey, it's not so much that's he has said that AVs and taxi deregulation will solve our transportation challenges, but that he's shown no leadership at all where he should in terms of restoring Amtrak service to Phoenix, establishing commuter rail between Phoenix and Tucson, studying high speed rail to Southern California and Las Vegas, and raising the gas tax or replacing it with something that does a better job of recovering revenue lost to hybrids and electric vehicles.

In terms of transit being a local issue rather than a state one, that's not entirely true. The nation's biggest transit system, the MTA in New York, is a state entity rather than a city one. In many other places, there is state level revenue sharing with local transit agencies. In fact, there used to be such an arrangement in Arizona, but when the Great Recession hit, the funds were swept in a desperate attempt to balance the state budget and never restored. No matter what happens with state funding of local public transit such as bus and light rail, the state absolutely should be the leader on transportation initiatives, like those mentioned above, that involve multiple counties.

Originally Posted by Obadno

I disagree we should absolutely want AV testing. This is the next major phase of vehicle transportation and getting the initial investment and groundwork will provide growth for the state for decades as the self-driving revolution for everything from personal autos to planes develops over the next 30 to 40 years.

People seem to think AV stuff will be tested for 4 or 5 years and then it will be adopted by all vehicles but that isnt the case its likely to take a generation before the majority of people will be comfortable with self driving cars so it will be a decades long industry to have in the state.

Originally Posted by combusean

I am still not convinced they will make anyone's life significantly better within the next 10 years. In fact, it's obnoxious that people are holding back on investments in established transportation needs today for an elusive someday that AVs and related gimmicks like Hyperloop may never provide.

This is exactly why the governor should be showing leadership with established modes of transport. Instead, trains are dismissed by many Republicans as "19th Century technology" that should be ignored in favor of fleets of automated taxis that may never arrive or see widespread consumer acceptance.

To be fair though, the Democrats haven't shown leadership on transportation issues at the state level either. David Garcia didn't mention transportation at all in his 2018 campaign, and I don't recall Fred DuVall bringing it up in 2014. True leadership on transportation in Arizona has come from mayors of both parties: Greg Stanton, Scott Smith, Kate Gallego. Their efforts have been admirable, but they can't do it all -- especially when projects extend beyond the boundaries of Maricopa County.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I've heard Sal DiCiccio, among many other conservatives and libertarians, make claims that we shouldn't invest in public transit because fleets of robot taxis will make trains and buses obsolete within a few years. As for Ducey, it's not so much that's he has said that AVs and taxi deregulation will solve our transportation challenges, but that he's shown no leadership at all where he should in terms of restoring Amtrak service to Phoenix, establishing commuter rail between Phoenix and Tucson, studying high speed rail to Southern California and Las Vegas, and raising the gas tax or replacing it with something that does a better job of recovering revenue lost to hybrids and electric vehicles.

In terms of transit being a local issue rather than a state one, that's not entirely true. The nation's biggest transit system, the MTA in New York, is a state entity rather than a city one. In many other places, there is state level revenue sharing with local transit agencies. In fact, there used to be such an arrangement in Arizona, but when the Great Recession hit, the funds were swept in a desperate attempt to balance the state budget and never restored. No matter what happens with state funding of local public transit such as bus and light rail, the state absolutely should be the leader on transportation initiatives, like those mentioned above, that involve multiple counties.





This is exactly why the governor should be showing leadership with established modes of transport. Instead, trains are dismissed by many Republicans as "19th Century technology" that should be ignored in favor of fleets of automated taxis that may never arrive or see widespread consumer acceptance.

To be fair though, the Democrats haven't shown leadership on transportation issues at the state level either. David Garcia didn't mention transportation at all in his 2018 campaign, and I don't recall Fred DuVall bringing it up in 2014. True leadership on transportation in Arizona has come from mayors of both parties: Greg Stanton, Scott Smith, Kate Gallego. Their efforts have been admirable, but they can't do it all -- especially when projects extend beyond the boundaries of Maricopa County.

I absolutely disagree that wild and unlikely to be fulfilled plans of High Speed rail or unnecessary am-track service are at all a priority for the Governor.

Dont get me wrong, a Train between Tucson and phoenix, commuter tracks and HSR connections around the southwest would be neat but I dont think Ducey or any govenor should waste much time on those things today.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I absolutely disagree that wild and unlikely to be fulfilled plans of High Speed rail or unnecessary am-track service are at all a priority for the Governor.

Dont get me wrong, a Train between Tucson and phoenix, commuter tracks and HSR connections around the southwest would be neat but I dont think Ducey or any govenor should waste much time on those things today.

High speed rail is a proven technology that many of our allies and even some of our rivals (e.g. China) seem to have no problem implementing. In the USA, we continue to embarrass ourselves by not finding the will to move forward. In terms of Amtrak service and commuter rail, if the governor doesn't lead, who will? It was an unwillingness by state government to fund a share of track maintenance that led to Amtrak's abandonment of Phoenix back in the '90s. Any commuter rail line between Phoenix and Tucson would require state leadership since it would pass through three counties. ADOT has done some detailed studies of optimal commuter rail routes, but without support from the state's chief executive, those plans will never go anywhere. A robust multimodal transportation network, incorporating both good roads and good rails, is far more important to the state's economic health than speculative technologies that are decades away from potential implementation or acceptance. I think the CityLab author, whose work I generally admire, got it partially wrong by seeing FOMO as Ducey's primary motivation, but I still think Ducey has misplaced priorities. You seem much more supportive of the governor, and despite my skepticism, I hope you are right in your optimism about him.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

High speed rail is a proven technology that many of our allies and even some of our rivals (e.g. China) seem to have no problem implementing. In the US........

I am not trying to debate the merits of a train. I dont see how you can think that is even a current top 50 priority for an Arizona governor today.

[combusean]

The problem with the proposed rail line is that the study gave it a $4 billion price tag even before ongoing operating costs. Arizona can't have nice things like that unless it wants to pay for them, and there's zero political will for it. You cannot have this conversation about rail without at least Phoenix's leadership, and the city has never once prioritized it.

[exit2lef]

I've noticed just this week that a traffic signal has been installed at 3rd St & Portland. At first, I thought it was a HAWK to accommodate pedestrian crossings of 3rd, but on closer inspection, it's a full-fledged light. It's still shrouded but looks nearly complete. With the Cambria Hotel and numerous other projects underway along Portland and Moreland streets, it's probably time for a signal in that area.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I've noticed just this week that a traffic signal has been installed at 3rd St & Portland. At first, I thought it was a HAWK to accommodate pedestrian crossings of 3rd, but on closer inspection, it's a full-fledged light. It's still shrouded but looks nearly complete. With the Cambria Hotel and numerous other projects underway along Portland and Moreland streets, it's probably time for a signal in that area.

Noticed that yesterday too. I think it's been needed there for quite some time. Now if they would install a HAWK a block North on Karsten.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

Noticed that yesterday too. I think it's been needed there for quite some time. Now if they would install a HAWK a block North on Karsten.

I was about to say "Where's Karsten?" Then, I looked at Google Maps and saw that they have labeled the street one block of Portland as "Karsten." That's strange because the street signs, confirmed just now via Google Street View, say "Moreland." Apple Maps says "Moreland" too.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I was about to say "Where's Karsten?" Then, I looked at Google Maps and saw that they have labeled the street one block of Portland as "Karsten." That's strange because the street signs, confirmed just now via Google Street View, say "Moreland." Apple Maps says "Moreland" too.

Yea...it kinda threw me off because I couldn't remember if it was Moreland or another street and I Googled it. I thought it was Moreland, and Google changed my mind, haha! Must be a Google mistake or was it once named Karsten and changed to Moreland sometime or another?

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

Yea...it kinda threw me off because I couldn't remember if it was Moreland or another street and I Googled it. I thought it was Moreland, and Google changed my mind, haha! Must be a Google mistake or was it once named Karsten and changed to Moreland sometime or another?

I just submitted an error report to Google. We'll see what happens.

[combusean]

How does Google even screw up like that? They completely renamed Moreland everywhere it shows up.

[exit2lef]

There's a road that goes through Papago Park named Karsten. It begins at 52nd St just a block or so south of Portland. I suspect it's named for Karsten Solheim, the golf equipment entrepreneur -- just like the ASU Karsten golf course. Somehow, Google must have thought that was the same street as Moreland.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I've noticed just this week that a traffic signal has been installed at 3rd St & Portland. At first, I thought it was a HAWK to accommodate pedestrian crossings of 3rd, but on closer inspection, it's a full-fledged light. It's still shrouded but looks nearly complete. With the Cambria Hotel and numerous other projects underway along Portland and Moreland streets, it's probably time for a signal in that area.

I will forever associate this traffic light with my drive on Saturday morning to the farmer's market when they had it lifted up with the crane and I got boxed in while an officer stopped traffic. 15 minutes sitting there waiting.