Wpg: Chief Peguis Trail Extension

[Biff]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

I hear you, obviously city engineers are hampered by a lack of funding and the political will to do things the right way the first time. I just find it astonishing that city planners have allowed Lag. to become such a shit show, leaving the intersection with traffic signals intact at Lag. and Springfield was proof at just how inept our city planners (or politicians) truly are.

Believe me, i agree with you 100%. They have completely fucked up Lag and will continue to make it worse. I am no traffic engineer but adding more turn lanes at each light is like trying to put a band-aid on an amputation. The only way i can see them fixing it is by grade separating the majority of the intersections.

We all know when that will happen......with the City as backwards as it is, they will start grade separating our highways right when flying cars become common place.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

I hear you, obviously city engineers are hampered by a lack of funding and the political will to do things the right way the first time. I just find it astonishing that city planners have allowed Lag. to become such a shit show, leaving the intersection with traffic signals intact at Lag. and Springfield was proof at just how inept our city planners (or politicians) truly are.

Springfield signals were left in place I believe because it is the west end of the truck route that comes out on the east side of hwy 101 via Gunn Road.

Having Kilcona park off of Springfield and also all the traffic coming out of the Kitchen Craft plant at quitting time may have also factored into it.

[cllew]

talking about placement of traffic signals sometimes they get added or not removed for political reasons.

Watt St. and Washington Ave is a good example. In June 1961 The City of East Kildonan paid to have school hour signals installed after a young boy was killed there.

This is after the Metro Corp said the traffic counts did not warrant having them with another set of signals at Munroe being 2 blocks north.

Fast forward to June 2004 and the city administration recommends the signals be removed and replaced with a pedestrian corridor to allow safe crossings 24 hours a day.

Councilor Lillian Thomas moved that the signals could go as long as principal at the school a few blocks away agreed.

The signals are still there so I guess that a school administrator with no background in traffic management said no to removing them.

[alittle1]

Originally Posted by cllew

Springfield signals were left in place I believe because it is the west end of the truck route that comes out on the east side of hwy 101 via Gunn Road.

Having Kilcona park off of Springfield and also all the traffic coming out of the Kitchen Craft plant at quitting time may have also factored into it.

Where have you ever seen the City give a crap about the worker's ride home? Unless the workers are heading down to buy a car from Larry Vickar, ESP won't do them a damn bit of good. If they came off the CP roadway right where the sheep farmer is at Plessis and Grassie, knocked down the six houses that should have never been built there and then added two more lanes to Plessis all the way to Hwy #1; then you would have a roadway for the next 25 years.

The problem with the City is, they are always trying to get someone else to pay for it. The people of Winnipeg have to own-up-to-it, we need NEW roadways to carry the traffic in this city properly and the people of this city have to understand that. This isn't St.James where you have a Portage Ave. running right to downtown with six to eight lanes, this is left turn, right turn, deadend, around the bend, through the woods to Gramma's house EK/Transcona. Nothing runs straight here!

Back in the 60's when we had METRO, the Road Builders, directing things in this town; we received some of the benifits in the North/South East. St.James, River Heights, Fort Garry received the bounty, because of their population growth and devine intervention by the all mighty power of GREASE. The influential could almost phone up Bonnycastle and order a road.

The City of Winnipeg, at the same time period, just went about paving its back lanes in the North and West ends. The Other Seven Cities except for St.James, just spent their time filling potholes and grading gravel roads. St.James was the only City that entered amalgamation with a surplus in its coffers and demanded that the monies be spent for their betterment, which it was.

It is my feeling that road building should be taken out of the hands of the City and entrusted to a more capable arms-length authority that would be more suitable to the future needs of the City and the Province. Because ALL people of Manitoba use the Streets of Winnipeg, ALL the people of Manitoba should pay for the Major roadways.

Do others see this differently?

[Biff]

My theory is we should use some of the model that the USA uses (i know they are in a shitload of trouble right now, but....). The Federal Govt should maintain and upgrade Hwy 1 from border to border to freeway standards and the same for Hwy 75 from Emerson to the Perimeter (major truck routes). The Province should maintain the Perimeter, Hwy 59, Route 90, Bishop Grandin and Chief Peguis all to freeway standards (major truck routes). The City is responsible for all the remainder of the streets within its boundary's.

This way the feds operate a major north/south and east/west highway in the Province. The Province then handles all major hwy trucking routes in the Winnipeg metro area.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Biff

We all know when that will happen......with the City as backwards as it is, they will start grade separating our highways right when flying cars become common place.

Gold!

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Biff

My theory is we should use some of the model that the USA uses (i know they are in a shitload of trouble right now, but....). The Federal Govt should maintain and upgrade Hwy 1 from border to border to freeway standards and the same for Hwy 75 from Emerson to the Perimeter (major truck routes). The Province should maintain the Perimeter, Hwy 59, Route 90, Bishop Grandin and Chief Peguis all to freeway standards (major truck routes). The City is responsible for all the remainder of the streets within its boundary's.

This way the feds operate a major north/south and east/west highway in the Province. The Province then handles all major hwy trucking routes in the Winnipeg metro area.

Just my 2 cents.

Very interesting. I like the idea of the province maintaining the inner-ring road - it would provide an incentive to keep it limited access (similar to how MIT has been protecting the Perimeter for some time now). Freeway standards for the ringroad is likely impossible at this point - not even in terms of cost (which would be hundreds of millions, considering there are several dozen at grade intersections on the ring-road). The real problem is that much of the land around the intersections is already heavily built up, making on-ramps, or even simple flyovers impossible. Grading would be impossible without expropriating tonnes of private land, especially along routes like Kenaston. Relocation of utilities would also be a nightmare, and the cost of building a pumping station every few hundred metres would be prohibitive, I'd think.

[Techman224]

Originally Posted by Biff

My theory is we should use some of the model that the USA uses (i know they are in a shitload of trouble right now, but....). The Federal Govt should maintain and upgrade Hwy 1 from border to border to freeway standards and the same for Hwy 75 from Emerson to the Perimeter (major truck routes). The Province should maintain the Perimeter, Hwy 59, Route 90, Bishop Grandin and Chief Peguis all to freeway standards (major truck routes). The City is responsible for all the remainder of the streets within its boundary's.

This way the feds operate a major north/south and east/west highway in the Province. The Province then handles all major hwy trucking routes in the Winnipeg metro area.

Just my 2 cents.

I would also put the Perimeter Highway under the Federal government, as it is important as the only high-speed bypass of the city. The whole Perimeter is currently a core route of the NHS.

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Very interesting. I like the idea of the province maintaining the inner-ring road - it would provide an incentive to keep it limited access (similar to how MIT has been protecting the Perimeter for some time now). Freeway standards for the ringroad is likely impossible at this point - not even in terms of cost (which would be hundreds of millions, considering there are several dozen at grade intersections on the ring-road). The real problem is that much of the land around the intersections is already heavily built up, making on-ramps, or even simple flyovers impossible. Grading would be impossible without expropriating tonnes of private land, especially along routes like Kenaston. Relocation of utilities would also be a nightmare, and the cost of building a pumping station every few hundred metres would be prohibitive, I'd think.

That's pretty much the billion dollar question. Yes, billion with a b!

[alittle1]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

That's pretty much the billion dollar question. Yes, billion with a b!

And why would you start worrying about that now. Its not your problem, your children and grandchildren are going to be paying for the rest of their lives and maybe their children too.

Believe it or not, Manitoba's only hope is to start charging others for the right to pass through here. There is only one way from East to West and that is the #1 HWY. Put in the proper roadway and then charge the bastards that use the roadway. Did I just say, TOLL ROAD?

[The Jabroni]

^Perhaps we are already doomed... 20 years ago. Everything else is just icing on the cake from this point on.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Techman224

I would also put the Perimeter Highway under the Federal government, as it is important as the only high-speed bypass of the city. The whole Perimeter is currently a core route of the NHS.

Yeah, i was thinking the feds should run the Perimeter too. My justification for the Province to run it was to try and be fair to the feds for maintaining 1 N/S and 1 E/W highway in each Province. This to TRY and avoid petty inter-provincial squabbles over percentage of federal money.

Originally Posted by Bdog

Very interesting. I like the idea of the province maintaining the inner-ring road - it would provide an incentive to keep it limited access (similar to how MIT has been protecting the Perimeter for some time now). Freeway standards for the ring road is likely impossible at this point - not even in terms of cost (which would be hundreds of millions, considering there are several dozen at grade intersections on the ring-road). The real problem is that much of the land around the intersections is already heavily built up, making on-ramps, or even simple flyovers impossible. Grading would be impossible without expropriating tonnes of private land, especially along routes like Kenaston. Relocation of utilities would also be a nightmare, and the cost of building a pumping station every few hundred metres would be prohibitive, I'd think.

I know making the inner ring road limited access would be cost prohibitive but if you start to do it where you can it will make it a bit better. There are definitely places where it could be done fairly easily and relatively inexpensively (as overpass construction goes). Almost all of Bishop would be easy to do limited access. Kenaston to the underpass should be fairly easy. Lag could be easy up to the Marion area. I don't want to look down on people or areas of lower income but the City/Province could expropriate most of those run down houses (with tarps as roofing material) between Marion and Dugald and come up with one proper interchange there (closing Marion at Lag). Lag and Regent is already being contemplated. North Lag shouldn't be too difficult either.

Believe me, i know it wont happen, I'm just saying.....

......and the Perimeter shouldn't be too bad. Most intersections would only require simple diamond interchanges (recently estimated at between $10 and $20 million each). So if the Province could devote, say $40 mill each other year they could probably do 2 per year. Within 10 to 20 years you could have the perimeter done.

[pollswpg]

Originally Posted by Biff

Yeah, i was thinking the feds should run the Perimeter too. My justification for the Province to run it was to try and be fair to the feds for maintaining 1 N/S and 1 E/W highway in each Province. This to TRY and avoid petty inter-provincial squabbles over percentage of federal money.



I know making the inner ring road limited access would be cost prohibitive but if you start to do it where you can it will make it a bit better. There are definitely places where it could be done fairly easily and relatively inexpensively (as overpass construction goes). Almost all of Bishop would be easy to do limited access. Kenaston to the underpass should be fairly easy. Lag could be easy up to the Marion area. I don't want to look down on people or areas of lower income but the City/Province could expropriate most of those run down houses (with tarps as roofing material) between Marion and Dugald and come up with one proper interchange there (closing Marion at Lag). Lag and Regent is already being contemplated. North Lag shouldn't be too difficult either.

Believe me, i know it wont happen, I'm just saying.....

......and the Perimeter shouldn't be too bad. Most intersections would only require simple diamond interchanges (recently estimated at between $10 and $20 million each). So if the Province could devote, say $40 mill each other year they could probably do 2 per year. Within 10 to 20 years you could have the perimeter done.

Since South Kenaston would be so difficult to work with...what about just expanding Bishop Grandin further west?

Then the inner ring road could loop up north/west passing the currently undeveloped land west of Fort Whyte? It could easily connect up with the proposed Moray extention to Wilkes.

I assume it would save on expropriation costs (is farm land cheaper to expropriatiate than residential properties?) and there would be more room to develop diamond interchanges...although that's wishful thinking.

edit: I forgot my plan would run into the RM on the south-west side of the city...therefore not really being within Winnipeg, I guess.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by pollswpg

Since South Kenaston would be so difficult to work with...what about just expanding Bishop Grandin further west?

Then the inner ring road could loop up north/west passing the currently undeveloped land west of Fort Whyte? It could easily connect up with the proposed Moray extention to Wilkes.

I assume it would save on expropriation costs (is farm land cheaper to expropriatiate than residential properties?) and there would be more room to develop diamond interchanges...although that's wishful thinking.

edit: I forgot my plan would run into the RM on the south-west side of the city...therefore not really being within Winnipeg, I guess.

No, actually, you are right. That is the future plan - extend Bishop west to curve around Fort Whyte and connect up with the William Clement Parkway. They are already planning for this in the design for the new flyover they will be building next year at the corner of Kenaston SB and Bishop Grandin WB.

[alittle1]

Originally Posted by pollswpg

Since South Kenaston would be so difficult to work with...what about just expanding Bishop Grandin further west?

Then the inner ring road could loop up north/west passing the currently undeveloped land west of Fort Whyte? It could easily connect up with the proposed Moray extention to Wilkes.

There is a golf course in the way, but hell just put up condos to buffer the traffic noise. It's doable.

I assume it would save on expropriation costs (is farm land cheaper to expropriatiate than residential properties?) and there would be more room to develop diamond interchanges...although that's wishful thinking.

The Anseeuw Bros. sold that land to the developers back in '79. The 'farm land' is rented waiting for development.

edit: I forgot my plan would run into the RM on the south-west side of the city...therefore not really being within Winnipeg, I guess.

The City is in full control of any land contained within the perimeter, and the provincial rubber stamp get applied at their say-so.

You still need someone to control the City an Province on some of the anal moves that they make.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Biff

I know making the inner ring road limited access would be cost prohibitive but if you start to do it where you can it will make it a bit better. There are definitely places where it could be done fairly easily and relatively inexpensively (as overpass construction goes). Almost all of Bishop would be easy to do limited access. Kenaston to the underpass should be fairly easy. Lag could be easy up to the Marion area. I don't want to look down on people or areas of lower income but the City/Province could expropriate most of those run down houses (with tarps as roofing material) between Marion and Dugald and come up with one proper interchange there (closing Marion at Lag). Lag and Regent is already being contemplated. North Lag shouldn't be too difficult either.

Believe me, i know it wont happen, I'm just saying.....

......and the Perimeter shouldn't be too bad. Most intersections would only require simple diamond interchanges (recently estimated at between $10 and $20 million each). So if the Province could devote, say $40 mill each other year they could probably do 2 per year. Within 10 to 20 years you could have the perimeter done.

Definitely agreeing with most of what you're saying. While doing Bishop would for sure be easier than Century, I'm wondering how much prime land would have to be expropriated. While the north side of Bishop is ROW, the south side (at key intersections) would need to be expropriated for the grading. Also, intersections along Southdale and Island lakes would pose logistical challenges because of the T intersections. As for the price, $10 M seems on the extreme low end. Pump stations alone would likely be about $5 - 8$ M, and utility relocation (in areas like River Heights, lets say) would be quite costly as well.

But I agree that devoting a set, yearly amount for interchanges would be a great move. Then, interchanges could be tackled based on priority (e.g. Lag/Regent, and soon, Bishop/Waverley). Key interchanges would be nice, even if an entire free-flowing ring-road is out of reach.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by Biff

My theory is we should use some of the model that the USA uses (i know they are in a shitload of trouble right now, but....). The Federal Govt should maintain and upgrade Hwy 1 from border to border to freeway standards and the same for Hwy 75 from Emerson to the Perimeter (major truck routes). The Province should maintain the Perimeter, Hwy 59, Route 90, Bishop Grandin and Chief Peguis all to freeway standards (major truck routes). The City is responsible for all the remainder of the streets within its boundary's.

This way the feds operate a major north/south and east/west highway in the Province. The Province then handles all major hwy trucking routes in the Winnipeg metro area.

Just my 2 cents.

Very much agree with this. That would be very straight forward.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Definitely agreeing with most of what you're saying. While doing Bishop would for sure be easier than Century, I'm wondering how much prime land would have to be expropriated. While the north side of Bishop is ROW, the south side (at key intersections) would need to be expropriated for the grading. Also, intersections along Southdale and Island lakes would pose logistical challenges because of the T intersections. As for the price, $10 M seems on the extreme low end. Pump stations alone would likely be about $5 - 8$ M, and utility relocation (in areas like River Heights, lets say) would be quite costly as well.

But I agree that devoting a set, yearly amount for interchanges would be a great move. Then, interchanges could be tackled based on priority (e.g. Lag/Regent, and soon, Bishop/Waverley). Key interchanges would be nice, even if an entire free-flowing ring-road is out of reach.

The $10 to $20 million figure is for simple diamond interchanges on the Perimeter. No need for lift stations and ample room for ramps. Yes it would be a different story for tighter areas in the city.

I think the solution for the Royalwood and Island Lake "T" intersections would be for Bishop to go over a simple half diamond interchange. This would alleviate the lack of distance for approach work into the sub-divisions. There is ample room all along Bishop for detours on the nature areas. They can restore it after construction ins over.


......at the end of the day, it is fun to talk about, playing traffic engineer but we all know very little of this will ever get done.

[Mininari]

Originally Posted by Biff

......at the end of the day, it is fun to talk about, playing traffic engineer but we all know very little of this will ever get done.

Which is why if we ever want to see any major federal investment into roads around here, we need to hope that CentrePort Canada takes off in the coming years and attracts some new manufacturing / transportation companies. That coupled with the various north-south CANAMEXtrade corridors could help the city & Province make the case for federally funded improvements to Hwy 1, 101 and 75 to help support the whole scheme. Federal funding typically gets allocated to things that have a net benefit to the whole economy (especially with our current government), and if we can show a net benefit to the country by building up CentrePort, then we may be eligible for some funding via programs like the Asia-Pacific Gateway Initiative. Example: The South Fraser Perimeter Road and new Pitt River Bridge in the GVRD received federal money under this auspice, both since they are critical pieces of infrastructure that are missing to support the transportation / Port activities on the coast. The SFPR is the missing highway link between Highway 1 / 91 / 99 and Deltaport (unfortunately its not being built as a full freeway now, but is planned to be one day). Point is, the squeaky economic wheel gets the grease, and we need to get ours going before it gets squeaky.

[cllew]

All along Bishop Grandin on the North side next to the nature reserve, there is the Branch II aqueduct that goes to the water storage reservoir @ Waverly and Wilkes. If Bishop was expanded wider to the north, I don't know if the aqueduct was designed to withstand that ground load over it.

Any time there is work done near branch I (the original one to McPhillips) or Branch II (vintage 1960's) the city gets very particular as to the type of digging near them or driving construction equipment over them.