Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by someone123

It could easily fit with a bit of road realignment and redevelopment of adjacent lots. The only major building nearby is the natural history museum which leaves quite a large north-south distance. Bell Road could be moved onto the Citadel land a bit where there is currently an big open grassy event space (which would be somewhat redundant if there were a stadium next door).

One block away there's also somewhere in the range of 500-1,000 parking spots in parkades, and two blocks away is the busiest bus corridor in the city. More parking could be built into Citadel Hill if needed.

There are no immediately adjacent residents to annoy.

It's an amazing spot for a stadium. Basically as good as it gets in an existing urban setting.

I did a little fiddling with MS Paint and Google Maps and found that Mosaic stadium would fit in the Halifax commons with some of the realignments you suggested. I agree that the commons is the best place for a regional stadium for the Maritimes.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

His stories do have useful factual nuggets in them sometimes though.

Agree with your breakdown of the author. I wouldn't normally repost his work here but there were some new items that hadn't previously been reported on.

Originally Posted by someone123

I hope the city does push for a better location than a greenfield site on the urban fringe. That would be a big mistake. They also shouldn't expropriate a bunch of land downtown like in the 1960's but there is a happy medium.

The city should absolutely be pushing for something more urban over a suburban greenfield space. Peninsula seems unlikely but somewhere nearby could potentially be possible. Unfortunately I think the Commons would be too big of an ask for a stadium and there would be too much local pushback. If the potential owners were out doing better PR today instead of holding closed door meetings perhaps they could be working towards swaying public opinion on the matter.

[JHikka]

Halifax council looking for staff report on CFL stadium
Mayor says Maritime Football is in field goal range of securing a franchise.
Posted By Jacob Boon on Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 2:12 PM

It's official. The municipality will once again tackle whether or not to build a stadium.

Councillor Steve Craig is asking for a staff report on the “opportunities and risks” involved with establishing a mixed-use development, CFL franchise and football stadium in Halifax.

The announcement came nearly 12 hours after council met behind closed doors with Maritime Football Ltd. representatives Anthony LeBlanc and Gary Drummond about plans to bring a Canadian Football League team to the east coast.

Maritime Football apparently did not discuss any specific financial numbers for its plan, but mayor Mike Savage says they've “certainly advanced the ball.”

...

“Stadiums aren’t free,” says Savage. “The question is, is there a way the city can contribute to that without digging deep into capital.”

Speculative locations bandied about for the stadium have included everywhere from Shannon Park to Dartmouth Crossing and even the Halifax Common.

The mayor wouldn't comment on what property is being discussed. Council wants the best deal possible for Halifax residents, he says, but it’s not at a point yet to determine if that’s the case.



“Let’s wait and see what this looks like,” cautions Savage. “It could be a lot more than even just a football stadium. It could allow us to get back into the concert business. It could allow us to do a lot of things.”

https://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites...on-cfl-stadium

[someone123]

Not sure there is anything new in that but it confirms a couple of things that have already been debated.

It is clear that if the project moves forward the municipality will be providing some funding. In the past the mayor said that the project should be led by the private sector but I think he means the city won't be paying for and building a turnkey project for a CFL team.

The article mentions staff complains about the poor "business case" for this project but all that means is that they don't expect the stadium to generate a net profit for the city in dollar terms. That is actually not a very significant argument; there is no business case in this sense for libraries or schools or fire and police stations. The whole point of the municipal government is they invest in projects for the good of the city at a loss. The business case argument is used as a political tool; people call for a business case for projects they don't like. The stadium makes sense as a piece of public infrastructure because it can be widely used as far as the public goes and by different groups that will play or perform there. It is like an arena or a convention centre.

If I were betting on this I'd say there's a pretty good chance of the stadium happening during the next 3-5 years. Maybe 60%. That will rise to 70% or 80% if the stadium proposal comes out and the financial demands on the city aren't too high. If it's at all reasonable I think the city council will vote in favour of it, and if it is structured well I think it can be built without much provincial or federal funding (there will probably be little or no provincial funding and there will almost certainly be no federal funding). I hope they aren't chasing federal funding because that is how projects in Halifax get delayed and die.

[JHikka]

• Video Link

https://www.thestar.com/halifax/2018...w-stadium.html

The rugby international set for this weekend is a couple hundred tickets away from selling out. 6,200 total.

Originally Posted by someone123

If I were betting on this I'd say there's a pretty good chance of the stadium happening. Maybe 60%. That will rise to 70% or 80% if the stadium proposal comes out and the financial demands on the city aren't too high.

Council deliberation is set for July 17th as to whether or not they will proceed with looking into the stadium.

I'll be a bit more pessimistic and slot the odds at 40-50%. Halifax absolutely needs a large stadium for the region but i'm not convinced the potential CFL owners have the capital and potential revenue capture to ensure that they will be mainstay tenants for a decade plus (I have some doubts regarding the potential ownership team, as well as the mental math regarding the team turning a profit in the short term). If I were a city councillor i'd be skeptical of their overall business plan, particularly if they're approaching with no financial numbers as of yet.

A lot of it is going to depend on how hungry Council is for a stadium. We know the Mayor is. It's going to be a balancing act between capital being brought forward by the potential CFL owners, willingness from Council, and potential funding from other levels of government.

Originally Posted by someone123

The whole point of the municipal government is they invest in projects for the good of the city at a loss.

Absolutely. Lansdowne, the model for which the potential CFL owners are basing themselves off of, loses money annually with large-scale tenants and multiple sports teams calling the stadium/arena home. The issue begins to arise if the stadium is losing money and the team is losing money simultaneously. Ottawa City put in $173M of the total $291M pricetag for the entirety of Lansdowne Park (Park, trade pavilion, retail, stadium, and arena), so Halifax is looking at a lighter pricetag without the additional amenities attached to the greater Lansdowne project. However, in subtracting things like parks and trade pavilions you're reducing the amount of public benefit of the project as a whole, and it becomes less of an ideal comparison the more you subtract.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see how things play out.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

A lot of it is going to depend on how hungry Council is for a stadium. We know the Mayor is. It's going to be a balancing act between capital being brought forward by the potential CFL owners, willingness from Council, and potential funding from other levels of government.

Since 2000, HRM council has committed funding for stadium projects at least twice. When they did this there was no CFL ownership group.

One time was for the Commonwealth Games and one time was for the FIFA Women's Cup. The CWG stadium was the same scale as what will need to be built for the CFL. That project failed because the overall bid, which included a bunch of other stuff like event security and other permanent facilities, went well north of $1B and the province pulled the plug.

They've also provided funding for one-off concerts that would be a natural fit for an eventual stadium. And the city has arguably lost events like the Uteck Bowl that could have continued at a proper stadium. The first Touchdown Atlantic games were at Huskies Stadium too. So it is not just about the CFL.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

They've also provided funding for one-off concerts that would be a natural fit for an eventual stadium. And the city has arguably lost events like the Uteck Bowl that could have continued at a proper stadium. The first Touchdown Atlantic games were at Huskies Stadium too. So it is not just about the CFL.

Of course.

For me, this entire plan would make more sense if it was lead by Halifax City entirely, at which point they came forth and said:

"Ok, we're going to build a flexible 20K multipurpose venue at a location of our choosing. It's going to host football, soccer, rugby, concerts, track and field, whatever. It'll be owned by the municipality and we'll pay for all of it. If you're an interested CFL owner and maybe want to be a tenant we'll consider it. Until then we'll host whatever we want in our stadium."

What we're getting today is a CFL ownership group tip-toeing around the potential of getting a municipality to pay for a stadium built to suit their needs primarily with size, amenity, and location requirements. It would be better for Halifax if they already had a stadium set in stone with a flexible take-it-or-leave-it attitude for potential tenants, rather than letting the tenants dictate what the city should or shouldn't do. Even if the CFL team is the biggest potential major tenant of your stadium you shouldn't let them work you over. Make the potential tenant suit your needs more than bending over backwards for their needs.

Rather than building a CFL stadium Halifax should build just a typical multipurpose stadium that could host a CFL team, if that makes sense.

This changes the dialogue from the owners coming to the City and saying: "We think you need a stadium..." to "That's a neat stadium you have there..."

[someone123]

I agree but I see why things play out the way they do. There external pressures create a sense of urgency and make political support easier.

I'm worried the Halifax stadium will be a worst of both worlds type of arrangement where the private sector group chooses the parameters (to maximize profits, to get the ball moving quickly, or they just don't care about urban planning, etc.) and the city foots the bill. If the city is going to pay for it they should be looking to maximize public benefit over the long haul and truly get involved in the planning.

The siting is one area where there's likely to be a disconnect. The promoters will want to build their own isolated pod of stuff, but the benefit to the city is far greater if the stadium complements the existing offerings of the urban core well. The city's also probably on the hook for providing transportation infrastructure. The additional transportation needs downtown for a stadium are ~0 and in most greenfield sites they are huge (just upgrading an interchange can cost tens of millions). I've never seen a stadium of significant size that isn't miserable to leave in a car after a game. It's a lot nicer if people have a mix of options after and some people can stay put for a while.

[ScreamingViking]

Is there a reason why the Halifax Commons couldn't be used for a stadium? Great location, seems to be large enough with space to spare... is it protected? Or a no-go publicly?

[MonctonRad]

An evening picture of the new 8,800 seat events centre in Moncton taken today. Official opening is in September.



The crane went up today for the new Hyatt Place Hotel right next door to the events centre.

[craner]

^Lookin' good Moncton.

I really hope Halafax can get this stadium thing worked out so a CFL team can start playing there.

[q12]

https://twitter.com/RugbyCanada/stat...62450161905664


https://twitter.com/AllanAprilCTV/st...43247187333122


https://twitter.com/DerekBySEA/statu...45908007161856

[Sonog]

Rogers Place in downtown Edmonton. Pretty soon this view will be partially blocked by a condo tower and grocery store.

https://www.imgrumweb.com/post/BkIeRZTB7AS

[Andy6]

I notice a continuing focus on events of the 1980s down at street-level.

[JHikka]

Sold out Wanderers Grounds in Halifax for Canada/USA rugby:


via Derek Martin on Twitter

[SteelTown]

Rebuild Hamilton
https://twitter.com/RebuildHamilton

[stefanYEG]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I notice a continuing focus on events of the 1980s down at street-level.

It's a timeline of the Oilers history that goes from west (80's) to east (McDavid drafted). I'm not a fan of it because I'm generally against blocking full windows with posters, vinyl, frosting, etc. Especially at street-level. In this situation it is somewhat required because it is where they inexplicably put the Oilers training and weight facilities instead of a restaurant and/or team store. I love the building and full marks for the hall of fame which sits just out of view in this photo under Ford Hall, but the rest of the street-level leaves much to be desired.

[GlassCity]

Great Hamilton photo

[MonctonRad]

A couple of more pictures of the plaza in front of the new Moncton events centre

Landscaping is now nearly complete. The most recent addition is trellises around the skating oval (winter)/spectator area for outdoor concerts (summer). Ivy will be planted at the base of the trellises to provide a canopy and some shade for summertime events.

[MonctonRad]

And a couple of interesting news releases and magazine articles came out yesterday and today about upcoming sporting events in Moncton. Methinks an expansion and/or upgrading of the Moncton Stadium may be in order:

Moncton has been selected to host the 2020 Canada Soccer Toyota National Championships U-17 Cup
June 26, 2018

Coupe U-17 Cup 2020MONCTON – The City of Moncton, the Jeux de la Francophonie 2021 and Soccer New Brunswick reacted to the positive news issued today by Canada Soccer, confirming Moncton as the host city of the Canada Soccer Toyota National Championships U-17 Cup in 2020. The three organizations partnered together earlier this year to submit a bid to host the championships in Moncton in 2020 in the U-17 category as a test event for the Jeux de la Francophonie 2021.

Official Statement by the City of Moncton:
“Moncton is thrilled to have been selected to host the Canada Soccer Toyota National Championships U 17 Cup in 2020. This important tournament will bring elite soccer athletes to our region and serve as an essential test event in preparation for the international soccer competition scheduled as part of the Jeux de la Francophonie 2021.

In hosting this championship, Moncton is thrilled to build upon the tremendous legacy that still resonates in our community from hosting the FIFA Women’s World Cup Canada 2015TM and the FIFA U-20 Women’s World Cup Canada 2014.

And then there is this:

Moncton Offers To Host CFL Team Until Halifax Stadium Is Ready
Jun 25, 2018 by Inda Intiar
Huddle Today
http://huddle.today/moncton-offers-h...dium-is-ready/

MONCTON – Maritime Football is seeking to set up an Atlantic Canadian CFL team in Halifax and Moncton could play a role in the process. Mayor Dawn Arnold said the city would be open to hosting the team for one or two seasons while a new stadium is constructed in Halifax.

Although the city won’t bid to have the team based in Moncton, Mayor Arnold said Moncton could host a couple of seasons to help establish an Atlantic Canadian audience base before the team moves to Halifax.

Halifax Mayor Mike Savage told Huddle over the phone that if his city were to get a CFL team, “it would have to be a regional effort.”

If they need to do a regular season [in Moncton], that’s fine. I want to cooperate with any mayors in communities in Atlantic Canada that want to take part in the effort,” said Savage.

“It would show the level of collaboration and team spirit that we have here. It could be a really positive thing to help out in this way and help enable [the Atlantic Canadian franchise] to be successful,” Mayor Arnold said.

Mayor Savage said Maritime Football is looking at having the team enter the league in 2021 or 2022.

Moncton has the past experience of hosting CFL games for more than 20,000 fans. Its stadium has a capacity of nearly 21,000 seats. Talks are still preliminary, but Ambrosie and LeBlanc said some changes might be needed at the stadium to play games in Moncton.

“They did mention nicer box seats and obviously we’d have to bring in more seats and that’s doable too,” Mayor Arnold said. “There would probably be a lot of negotiations that have to happen. No one has really been talking about money at all here so that would be an interesting conversation that would have to take place.”

Mayor Arnold said the meeting with Ambrosie and LeBlanc was “a provincial play” and not arranged by the city.

So, lets look at what's going on here:

- 2020 Canadian National U17 Soccer Championships
- 2021 Jeux de la Francophonie (a French version of the Commonwealth Games)
- 2021/2022 Potential for one to two seasons of CFL football while the Halifax stadium is to be constructed.

All three of these events would require use of the Moncton Stadium, with the latter two events likely requiring an expansion of the facility. In particular, the offhanded comment from Mayor Arnold about bringing in more seating as well as "box seats" is intriguing. One doesn't usually do box seats as a temporary feature to a stadium. If the city, province and the feds might be prepared to do a substantial expansion to the facility, what could this mean for the city down the road?

I doubt a Moncton CFL franchise is in the offing anytime soon, but the Canadian Premier League (soccer) could be a possibility for the city. The Moncton Stadium is already big enough for a CPL team. All it really needs is box seats,more permanent washrooms and concessions (along with an interior concourse underneath the eastern stands).

One wonders if there isn't something suddenly afoot here.........