A Western Perspective For The Atlantic Naysayer

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by someone123

Sadly I don't think that overly optimistic and ambitious plans are the problem.

here here!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Before the "first contract arbitration" union fear mongering goes any further, a counterpoint...

http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/comm...-workers-a-say

This doesn't reflect the current global reality. The person who wrote the story is not in the manufacturing industry and is just repeating the NDP version of the facts. I have seen one company after another go out of business in Ontario (I get the auction advertisements a few times a month). The number of injection molding companies in Ontario has been cut in half over the past 8 - 9 years. Companies that can't compete with cheap Chinese products will just go bankrupt. The only way that Canadian manufacturing companies will be able to survive will be if employers and employees work together. This idea of employee unions versus employers is a sure recipe for the decline of many Nova Scotia manufacturing companies.

Once Premier Dexter and elected officials start ignoring the advice of large employers such as Michelin is probably the beginning of the end of many NS jobs. This isn't fear mongering, it is just reality. Unfortunately it is a reality that few manufacturing employees will know of until their employers shut down and they are out looking to find jobs at other companies that have also shut down.

Luckily I still have a job and have for the past 25 years straight. However, I am thankful to still have a job in the manufacturing industry. Instead of employees wanting to get every cent possible from their employers they should be hoping that the company they are working for is financially sound so they will have a secure job.

[Pete Crawford]

A lot of you have probably already seen the group of articles yesterday about the TD Economics report on shipbuilding's impact on Nova Scotia's economy.

http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/nov...wind-our-sails

2.6% growth for Nova Scotia is a good start, but the same report projects that Halifax will grow by 3.2% annually starting in 2013. That's a full 1% point revision form their expectations before the announcement. I know 1% by definition sounds like a small number, but those of you that are economists know that a 1% upward revision is a huge deal. For those of you that aren't economists, please note that a 1% upward revision is... yes, a bloody huge deal.

That rate of growth (just when the project is beginning to wind-up) puts Halifax in a growth class with cities like Toronto, Ottawa, Winnipeg, and Vancouver. It would fundamentally change the commercial property market. A Stadium or LRT may not be givens from the contract's effects, but a densification of the downtown core with new high-rise projects is, I would be sure, a safe bet.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Pete Crawford

2.6% growth for Nova Scotia is a good start, but the same report projects that Halifax will grow by 3.2% annually starting in 2013. That's a full 1% point revision form their expectations before the announcement. I know 1% by definition sounds like a small number, but those of you that are economists know that a 1% upward revision is a huge deal. For those of you that aren't economists, please note that a 1% upward revision is... yes, a bloody huge deal.

That rate of growth (just when the project is beginning to wind-up) puts Halifax in a growth class with cities like Toronto, Ottawa, Winnipeg, and Vancouver. It would fundamentally change the commercial property market. A Stadium or LRT may not be givens from the contract's effects, but a densification of the downtown core with new high-rise projects is, I would be sure, a safe bet.

Totally agree - it's a huge increase even though numerically seems insignificant. I just thank god it wouldn't be anything like the growth in Fort McMurray - when I worked there year over year growth was roughly 8%.

It will take a few years for HRM to see the growth ramp up; but it will be impressive to see how things change...if the convention centre was supposed to help to the 'no' out of Nova Scotia - surely the contract will drive it out.

[someone123]

Part of the issue here is that the contract is above what was previously expected of the economy. Halifax has a diversified economy and is already growing at a decent rate. It's not a dying industrial city that was saved by the shipbuilding contract, it's a healthy city that will become a higher growth city now. Another aspect of the contract is that it is a longer-term deal so it will have a great steadying effect on the economy instead of creating a boom and bust cycle. That is exactly what Canada needs if it is to maintain two domestic shipyards.

Downtown densification has been happening already. There's lots of construction happening right now and there have been lots of projects in the North End. There will be even more pressure as the shipyard hires 1,000-2,000 more workers. Halifax is also in a situation where it could really take off and start to attract more people from around the country because of the type of lifestyle it offers. This is different from a place like Fort McMurray which is all about the single industry.

LRT is not a given but it's the kind of project that can realistically be considered at this point. I harp on it because I think Halifax transit planning is much more modest than it should be. For example, the city council will spend years studying and debating a single small ferry route costing $20M or so as if it would make or break the city. They should be looking at more substantial transit solutions like LRT, streetcars, more BRT with dedicated busways, and so on. There's nothing wrong with regular buses or ferries but no matter how many of those they add the city won't have good transit because people will be stuck in traffic.

Halifax is not going to become a giant metropolis overnight but it seems pretty clear that it has a future as a growing metropolitan area of about half a million people. It's moving beyond the small town scale. Traffic and suburban sprawl are going to hurt if they're not managed more carefully.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This doesn't reflect the current global reality. The person who wrote the story is not in the manufacturing industry and is just repeating the NDP version of the facts. I have seen one company after another go out of business in Ontario (I get the auction advertisements a few times a month). The number of injection molding companies in Ontario has been cut in half over the past 8 - 9 years. Companies that can't compete with cheap Chinese products will just go bankrupt. The only way that Canadian manufacturing companies will be able to survive will be if employers and employees work together. This idea of employee unions versus employers is a sure recipe for the decline of many Nova Scotia manufacturing companies.

Once Premier Dexter and elected officials start ignoring the advice of large employers such as Michelin is probably the beginning of the end of many NS jobs. This isn't fear mongering, it is just reality. Unfortunately it is a reality that few manufacturing employees will know of until their employers shut down and they are out looking to find jobs at other companies that have also shut down.

Luckily I still have a job and have for the past 25 years straight. However, I am thankful to still have a job in the manufacturing industry. Instead of employees wanting to get every cent possible from their employers they should be hoping that the company they are working for is financially sound so they will have a secure job.

Quite frankly, there is no competing with China when it comes to manufacturing. If you think that simply eliminating unions and the few perks they bring will make us competitive, think again and look at the situation in China. Is the average Canadian worker going to work the hours the average Chinese worker works? For the wages the average Chinese worker earns? In the conditions accepted by industry in China? The answer across the board is 'no'. Comparing our manufacturing industry to China is ridiculous.

Unions don't always make the best choices, but they do help protect worker's rights. They can work with the employer. I, quite frankly, don't want to go back to 19th century labour practices. Employers are not altruistic, and if they can walk over their employees without consequence, they will. That's the nature of the business.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Quite frankly, there is no competing with China when it comes to manufacturing. If you think that simply eliminating unions and the few perks they bring will make us competitive, think again and look at the situation in China. Is the average Canadian worker going to work the hours the average Chinese worker works? For the wages the average Chinese worker earns? In the conditions accepted by industry in China? The answer across the board is 'no'. Comparing our manufacturing industry to China is ridiculous.

Unions don't always make the best choices, but they do help protect worker's rights. They can work with the employer. I, quite frankly, don't want to go back to 19th century labour practices. Employers are not altruistic, and if they can walk over their employees without consequence, they will. That's the nature of the business.

Hear, hear!!

Excellent post.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Quite frankly, there is no competing with China when it comes to manufacturing. If you think that simply eliminating unions and the few perks they bring will make us competitive, think again and look at the situation in China. Is the average Canadian worker going to work the hours the average Chinese worker works? For the wages the average Chinese worker earns? In the conditions accepted by industry in China? The answer across the board is 'no'. Comparing our manufacturing industry to China is ridiculous.

There are manufacturing sectors for which your comment is correct, however, there are many manufacturing sectors for which North American companies can compete with Chinese companies. In your comment you have compared wages to wages (where China has an advantage), however, you must also compare other factors such productivity (it is possible to have an advantage in a well run, stable company with few work interruptions), quality (usually North American quality is better), time to reach the North American marketplace (North American companies obviously have a big advantage), shipping cost (we have a big advantage), safety code certifications (it is easier for North American companies to achieve the proper North American certifications since we are more familiar with the standards), customer satisfaction (we have an advantage since we are closer to the marketplace and it is easier to meet warranty obligations).... I am sure that I am missing a few items of advantage versus disadvantage.

But this is getting off track. Nova Scotia must compete with other North American jurisdictions, including the ones that don't have union conflict and extraordinarily high wages.

Unions don't always make the best choices, but they do help protect worker's rights. They can work with the employer. I, quite frankly, don't want to go back to 19th century labour practices. Employers are not altruistic, and if they can walk over their employees without consequence, they will. That's the nature of the business.

Just as a clarification, the great majority of people in the work place are employees whether they are in management, are professionals or production workers. I think we are using the term employers to refer to owners, and direct representatives of owners in the case of publicly traded companies. Employers (i.e. owners) pay employees, and in return employees must provide a service that is of value to the company. It is a two-way street - in my opinion, that is the nature of business. Both employers and employees have an obligation to treat one another fairly.

We all owe a great deal of gratitude to past generations of unions for safety in the workplace, equality and a fair standard of living. However, unions aren't required to keep us from going back to 19th century labour practices. Companies must abide by the Canada Labour Code which includes occupational safety, maximum number of working hours, minimum pay, etc. (here is a link - http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/L-2/). I have never worked at a unionized company (fortunately) but I have worked with many responsible people who have ensured workplace safety and fair work standards.

Companies that have harmonious, happy workforces are far more productive than conflict-filled, unhappy workforces. As soon as a union is formed then it is automatically a case of employees versus management employees and employers. Luckily, in many cases it is not just management but also production workers who do not want a union and the resulting conflict.

In spite of your generalizations and, quite frankly, prejudicial views about employers, I have worked for a few employers and all have wanted to see the best for people working within their company. However, we live in a free market country, employers expect proper compensation for their pay.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

There are manufacturing sectors for which your comment is correct, however, there are many manufacturing sectors for which North American companies can compete with Chinese companies. In your comment you have compared wages to wages (where China has an advantage), however, you must also compare other factors such productivity (it is possible to have an advantage in a well run, stable company with few work interruptions), quality (usually North American quality is better), time to reach the North American marketplace (North American companies obviously have a big advantage), shipping cost (we have a big advantage), safety code certifications (it is easier for North American companies to achieve the proper North American certifications since we are more familiar with the standards), customer satisfaction (we have an advantage since we are closer to the marketplace and it is easier to meet warranty obligations).... I am sure that I am missing a few items of advantage versus disadvantage.

Yes, and none of those aside from an occasional work stoppage are negatively impacted by unions. And when stoppages are called for by the unions, there's usually a good reason for it. And be honest, union strikes are relatively few and far between.

But this is getting off track. Nova Scotia must compete with other North American jurisdictions, including the ones that don't have union conflict and extraordinarily high wages.

And more than half of Canadian provinces already have the proposed legislation (which, again, isn't specifically related to unions, doesn't permit unions to run roughshod over companies, and will be rarely used - but there when it's needed) is already in effect in more than half of all Canadian provinces.

Just as a clarification, the great majority of people in the work place are employees whether they are in management, are professionals or production workers. I think we are using the term employers to refer to owners, and direct representatives of owners in the case of publicly traded companies. Employers (i.e. owners) pay employees, and in return employees must provide a service that is of value to the company. It is a two-way street - in my opinion, that is the nature of business. Both employers and employees have an obligation to treat one another fairly.

We all owe a great deal of gratitude to past generations of unions for safety in the workplace, equality and a fair standard of living. However, unions aren't required to keep us from going back to 19th century labour practices. Companies must abide by the Canada Labour Code which includes occupational safety, maximum number of working hours, minimum pay, etc. (here is a link - http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/L-2/). I have never worked at a unionized company (fortunately) but I have worked with many responsible people who have ensured workplace safety and fair work standards.

Companies that have harmonious, happy workforces are far more productive than conflict-filled, unhappy workforces. As soon as a union is formed then it is automatically a case of employees versus management employees and employers. Luckily, in many cases it is not just management but also production workers who do not want a union and the resulting conflict.

In spite of your generalizations and, quite frankly, prejudicial views about employers, I have worked for a few employers and all have wanted to see the best for people working within their company. However, we live in a free market country, employers expect proper compensation for their pay.

I've never worked in a unionized workplace. I have however worked in non-unionized workplaces, so if my views are prejudiced, it's only by negative experience, and those of friends who've also worked in non-union environments in other industries. I find it amusing that you paint all unions as disruptive forces of negativity, yet I'm the one who's prejudiced.

An individual employee at the lower echelons of a company has very little power. Their worth is only viewed relative to their ability to be easily replaced. It's only through their collective value that they have any power. A union is a counterbalance, nothing more. It doesn't automatically create an 'us vs them' mentality - if it exists, it usually exists for a reason. Unions don't spring into existence from the ether, and the animosity between management and workers already exists. I would also suggest you look up the term 'union busting' before you lay all the fault for workplace discord at the foot of unions.

Anyway, yes, some employers treat their employees very well. I'm not debating that. But you also have to admit that some don't, and for a lot of people, simply walking away to the next employer is not an option.

So, with that said... I'm done. This is getting way off topic. I'll be happy to continue, but lets take it to PMs, shall we?

[DB_in_Cbus]

I'm generally pro-union, but I will say that Michelin offers, by far, the best paying working-class jobs in Bridgewater. People with high school education are making $20/hr in a town that is predominantly service based.
I don't think that Dexter should screw with that just because he wants to appease his union supporters. There is a place for unions, yes, but don't screw with a good thing.

If for some reason Michelin decides to pick up and move away, there goes 3,000 direct jobs in Nova Scotia, and likely more than 10,000 indirect ones. It's impact in NS is just as important as the ship building contract, and if it does go, towns like Bridgewater, Waterville and Westville will dry up and blow away.

[PoscStudent]

Does anyone know how many ships can be built at the shipyard at one time?

[macgregor]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

Does anyone know how many ships can be built at the shipyard at one time?

There are 3-4 Coast Guard ships now in various stages of construction. A total of 9 will be built with one being finished every 4-5 months.

I think the Frigate plan will have 2-3 ships underway at each time. As a wild guess, we might see one of those launched every 12 months.