Should Canada's Capital be Officially Bilingual

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's interesting. I've always found that Moncton for example was more of a gold standard for bilingualism than Ottawa.

For starters, the population is much more even between the two main language groups: around 33% francophone in the city proper and 40% in the metro?

Ottawa city proper is only 10-15% francophone depending on how you count it. The metro including Gatineau is about 35% francophone.

There seems to be a lot more French in Moncton in everyday life than in Ottawa, with exception of the places in Ottawa where the city's daily life intersects with Gatineau's. In those instances things are pretty bilingual.

Moncton =/= all of New Brunswick. Moncton may be marginally the largest urban centre but it is the only large urban centre with a sizeable French population. The other two (Fredericton and Saint John) are not only overwhelmingly Anglophone but both have a higher % of non-official language speakers than Francophones.

The following numbers are StatsCan figures for Language Spoken at Home, Single Responses, from 1996, 2006, and 2011 Censuses.

MONCTON CITY (96, 06, 11)
ENG: 72.82%, 71.60%, 72.43%
FR: 24.69%, 26.05%, 23.67%
NON: 0.44%, 1.15%, 1.82%

DIEPPE TOWN (96, 06, 11)
ENG: 29.63%, 27.07%, 28.21%
FR: 68.02%, 71.23%, 67.88%
NON: 0.28%, 0.41%, 1.27%

The other large municipality in Moncton (Riverview) is 95%+ Anglophone.

Contrast this to Fredericton and Saint John:

FREDERICTON CITY (96, 06, 11)
ENG: 93.81%, 92.06%, 90.71%
FR: 3.55%, 3.70%, 3.80%
NON: 1.68%, 3.53%, 3.90%

SAINT JOHN CITY (96, 06, 11)
ENG: 96.87%, 95.25%, 94.97%
FR: 2.01%, 1.84%, 1.69%
NON: 0.59%, 2.45%, 2.45%

Multiple responses (Speaking both English and French at home) hardly ever make up more than 1%, so I didn't calculate the numbers for those. I understand the number of those who can speak both French & English has increased in recent years but that shouldn't effect the base of the numbers i've posted.

In almost all areas of New Brunswick the language breakdown is either 95%+ENG or 95%+FR - there's very few areas that are actually evenly split down the middle (or where being bilingual would be required, effectively). This is part of the reason why bilingualism has next to no traction with Anglophones. French as a spoken language at home is decreasing in NB and as demographics continue its decrease will only become more severe in the coming years.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by JHikka

You're probably right. We don't have a pricetag for our Premier's trip to Madagascar but i'm sure it's overwhelming. I wish the Premier's Office could set an example for fiscal restraint by not traveling to every congress and event on the face of the planet.


These pockets won't be in NB for much longer so there is that. Likely moving back to an area of the country that actually is bilingual: Ottawa!

Ottawa bilingual??

The federal buildings and institutions are certainly bilingual but outside of those, the city is very English speaking. It has a few pockets where you'll hear French but overall the city is very Anglophone.

Some of the political and government elite in Ottawa act as though it's the norm to be bilingual in Ottawa but in reality it's not the case. And for the record, I'm for the city being officially bilingual and the same goes for Timmins.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's interesting. I've always found that Moncton for example was more of a gold standard for bilingualism than Ottawa.

For starters, the population is much more even between the two main language groups: around 33% francophone in the city proper and 40% in the metro?

Ottawa city proper is only 10-15% francophone depending on how you count it. The metro including Gatineau is about 35% francophone.

There seems to be a lot more French in Moncton in everyday life than in Ottawa, with exception of the places in Ottawa where the city's daily life intersects with Gatineau's. In those instances things are pretty bilingual.

But when it's just "Ottawans with Ottawans", English is pretty much the only language that is used these days. At this point it's not even forced - it all just seems very natural to operate in this manner. Even the vast majority of francophones now seem totally accustomed to it, and the people whose pro-bilingualism militancy sparked this thread are actually a very small but vocal minority within Ottawa's Franco-Ontarian community.

I've never found Moncton to be very bilingual in terms of its private sector. It is a lot like Sudbury where a lot of public services and institutions are bilingual but stores and restaurants not very much so. The language of business no matter where you are in New Brunswick or Northern Ontario is English so that has a lot of influence. It proves why Quebec wanted to make French the official language of business back in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I've never found Moncton to be very bilingual in terms of its private sector. It is a lot like Sudbury where a lot of public services and institutions are bilingual but stores and restaurants not very much so. The language of business no matter where you are in New Brunswick or Northern Ontario is English so that has a lot of influence. It proves why Quebec wanted to make French the official language of business back in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

I don't recall that having anything to do with the language of business in Moncton or Northern Ontario.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Ottawa bilingual??

The federal buildings and institutions are certainly bilingual but outside of those, the city is very English speaking. It has a few pockets where you'll hear French but overall the city is very Anglophone.

I was speaking more of the ideal that NB tried to achieve province-wide with its Official Bilingualism policy. I always found I could go to a lot of places around Ottawa and get reasonable service in either French or English. The latter always dominated in most areas of course but there was still French presence. I'm not trying to say Ottawa is a clear 50/50 split in every neighbourhood.

Perhaps I spent too many nights in Hull.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't recall that having anything to do with the language of business in Moncton or Northern Ontario.

New Brunswick and Northern Ontario never made private businesses operate and offer services in French. So virtually all of the businesses operate in English only.

In Quebec, many large businesses used to operate mainly in English but today they must operate in French. Most small businesses have to operate in French as well. There was a legitimate fear that French would become a minority language in many part of Quebec including Montreal if businesses were to operate in English and exclude those who only spoke French.

This means that employees are supposed to communicate in French with one another, with management and follow directives that are in French. It doesn't mean that you can't speak English. It just means that French has to be the main language used and service has to be offered in French with no other language dominating it.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I was speaking more of the ideal that NB tried to achieve province-wide with its Official Bilingualism policy. I always found I could go to a lot of places around Ottawa and get reasonable service in either French or English. The latter always dominated in most areas of course but there was still French presence. I'm not trying to say Ottawa is a clear 50/50 split in every neighbourhood.

Perhaps I spent too many nights in Hull.

Nights spent in Hull are fun unlike in Ottawa!! hehe

As for receiving bilingual service, try getting service in French in Nepean, Kanata or Stittsville. In Gloucester it's far from a guarantee. And even in Orleans it's not always a sure thing. The business language is English throughout Ontario. Government services are normally available in both languages but getting service in French in municipal facilities is pretty tough in the West end of Ottawa. (Nepean, Kanata, Stittsville) Those former cities were English-only and I mean very English-only until they were forced to merge with Ottawa about 15-16 years ago.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

No. Because English and French are gonna become obsolete if you pay attention to recent immigration trends.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't recall that having anything to do with the language of business in Moncton or Northern Ontario.

As Loco explained, the point wasn't for Quebec's Bill 101 to have an extra-territorial impact in other provinces (which it still kinda did, but that's another story).

The point is that places like Timmins, Sudbury, Moncton, Cornwall, Orleans, Vanier, etc. gives us a pretty good idea of what things might be like in much of Quebec today in terms of language, had Quebec not adopted Bill 101 or something like it. (Or alternatively, become independent.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Ottawa bilingual??

The federal buildings and institutions are certainly bilingual but outside of those, the city is very English speaking. It has a few pockets where you'll hear French but overall the city is very Anglophone.

Some of the political and government elite in Ottawa act as though it's the norm to be bilingual in Ottawa but in reality it's not the case. .

Yeah, this group (federal mandarins) kind of has its own bubble.

They kiss on both cheeks, often listen to Radio-Canada, and sometimes drop lines like "revenons à nos moutons", "on parle pour parler là" and "ça se peut-tu?" in conversations that are otherwise entirely in English.

But most of Ottawa isn't like that.

Ottawa is more of a typical Ontario city than most people realize.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, this group (federal mandarins) kind of has its own bubble.

They kiss on both cheeks, often listen to Radio-Canada, and sometimes drop lines like "revenons à nos moutons", "on parle pour parler là" and "ça se peut-tu?" in conversations that are otherwise entirely in English.

But most of Ottawa isn't like that.

Ottawa is more of a typical Ontario city than most people realize.

I think it reflects the widespread confusion among Canadians about the nature of official bilingualism. Many people (proponents and opponents) seem to want to see it as functional bilingualism, which exists to varying degrees in Canada but has never been a matter of federal policy, beyond mechanisms to ensure official bilingualism and matters of official language minority rights. Ottawa exists in a part of Canada where functional bilingualism is higher than average, but in a context that reflects the English speaking majority.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I've never found Moncton to be very bilingual in terms of its private sector. It is a lot like Sudbury where a lot of public services and institutions are bilingual but stores and restaurants not very much so. The language of business no matter where you are in New Brunswick or Northern Ontario is English so that has a lot of influence. It proves why Quebec wanted to make French the official language of business back in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

I know both areas quite well for family reasons and while Moncton is definitely deficient in terms of bilingual service and signage (and well below the undisputed Canadian champion: Montreal), I'd say it's still quite a bit better than any of the cities in Ontario (including Ottawa).

There are a few reasons for this IMO.

One is that francophones living in the Moncton area are more uppity than almost any group of Franco-Ontarians. And this includes those living in Ottawa and Eastern Ontario. They may not speak French as well as Ottawa francos but they are often more in tune with francophone culture and their own Acadian culture especially. (Which also happens to be more dynamic and unique than Franco-Ontarian culture.) Young Acadians are also more likely to pursue their education in French than Franco-Ontarians are.

In addition to being *more* francophone, the Acadian population in Moncton is also more numerous in percentage terms. So you have a better chance of simply stumbling upon a francophone employee when going about your business there. Even if they often begin in English they also seem to be more willing to use their French with you and actively switch to French than Franco-Ontarians are.

The main shopping mall in the Moncton area also happens to be in Dieppe, the main francophone population centre in the metro.

And just generally, even if it doesn't walk the walk and talk the talk, there seems to be a greater consciousness in the Moncton area that things *should probably* be bilingual. Even if they aren't always.

[Acajack]

Another thing about Moncton vs. the others is that it seems that Acadians there have a greater "legitimacy of place" than francophones in the Ontario cities do.

They're the original European settlers of the region so everyone except the most extreme francophobes can recognize that they're legitimately at home in the Moncton region.

In Ottawa, it's not said that often out in the open but there is a sense that when Franco-Ontarians make demands that in the back of people's minds there is a "why don't you just live in Gatineau if you want more French?"

There is no Gatineau for Moncton. Well, there's Dieppe but it's still in the same province. Plus Moncton's mall and much of its retail is there anyway.

In northern Ontario my wife has often mentioned that many anglophones feel that francophones already have their own "mining and forestry" region in the middle of the Boreal forest. It's called "Abitibi-Témiscamingue". And that if they want more French, that's where they should live. In any event, most of the Franco-Ontarian families in the NE have their origins (and often close relatives) in places like Rouyn, Val-d'Or, La Sarre, anyway.

Obviously much of the franco population in NE Ontario is there because historically NW Quebec did not provide enough opportunity for everyone and the population simply spilled over the border into Ontario. My sense is that this flow has slowed to a small trickle now as places like Rouyn are doing at least as well as places like Timmins (for example).

[DV8]

Originally Posted by Loco101

New Brunswick and Northern Ontario never made private businesses operate and offer services in French. So virtually all of the businesses operate in English only.

I understand the point, and I think the Ontario business community already has enough legislation in place.
Let the business operate to meet its customers needs, they are part of the community not government.

[DV8]

I think these numbers show that because a place has been made OFFICIALLY bilingual, people have not changed to accommodate even with government pressure, and these numbers are after what 45 years? How long would it take to MAKE Ottawa residents OFFICIALLY bilingual, 90? Never?

Originally Posted by JHikka

Moncton =/= all of New Brunswick. Moncton may be marginally the largest urban centre but it is the only large urban centre with a sizeable French population. The other two (Fredericton and Saint John) are not only overwhelmingly Anglophone but both have a higher % of non-official language speakers than Francophones.

The following numbers are StatsCan figures for Language Spoken at Home, Single Responses, from 1996, 2006, and 2011 Censuses.

MONCTON CITY (96, 06, 11)
ENG: 72.82%, 71.60%, 72.43%
FR: 24.69%, 26.05%, 23.67%
NON: 0.44%, 1.15%, 1.82%

DIEPPE TOWN (96, 06, 11)
ENG: 29.63%, 27.07%, 28.21%
FR: 68.02%, 71.23%, 67.88%
NON: 0.28%, 0.41%, 1.27%

The other large municipality in Moncton (Riverview) is 95%+ Anglophone.

Contrast this to Fredericton and Saint John:

FREDERICTON CITY (96, 06, 11)
ENG: 93.81%, 92.06%, 90.71%
FR: 3.55%, 3.70%, 3.80%
NON: 1.68%, 3.53%, 3.90%

SAINT JOHN CITY (96, 06, 11)
ENG: 96.87%, 95.25%, 94.97%
FR: 2.01%, 1.84%, 1.69%
NON: 0.59%, 2.45%, 2.45%

Multiple responses (Speaking both English and French at home) hardly ever make up more than 1%, so I didn't calculate the numbers for those. I understand the number of those who can speak both French & English has increased in recent years but that shouldn't effect the base of the numbers i've posted.

In almost all areas of New Brunswick the language breakdown is either 95%+ENG or 95%+FR - there's very few areas that are actually evenly split down the middle (or where being bilingual would be required, effectively). This is part of the reason why bilingualism has next to no traction with Anglophones. French as a spoken language at home is decreasing in NB and as demographics continue its decrease will only become more severe in the coming years.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by DV8

I think these numbers show that because a place has been made OFFICIALLY bilingual, people have not changed to accommodate even with government pressure, and these numbers are after what 45 years? How long would it take to MAKE Ottawa residents OFFICIALLY bilingual, 90? Never?

What the New Brunswick numbers should indicate is that making a jurisdiction bilingual does not necessarily increase the percentage of people using the new official language (in this case, French) as their first language. More people will learn it as a second language and more people will be bilingual but the bilingual designation does not automatically increase the % of people speaking that newly official language as a first language, if that makes any sense.

The case can be made that Official Bilingualism was introduced in New Brunswick as a measure to protect the linguistic community of Francophones in the province and to ensure its survival. To that point it has been successful, but the linguistic make up of New Brunswick right now is a province that is 70% Anglophone with increasing numbers for both Anglophones and Non-Official languages speakers. The number of people speaking French as a first language is decreasing in New Brunswick and has been for quite some time.

[khabibulin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But most of Ottawa isn't like that.

Ottawa is more of a typical Ontario city than most people realize.

Unless you go to an Ottawa Redblacks game. In the flag happy CFL this year, it was amazing how many times I heard the announcer say...."mouchoir sur la terrain".

[Acajack]

Sounds like Justin Trudeau thinks a bilingual Ottawa should be conditional on a bilingual Gatineau:


http://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/...justin-trudeau

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sounds like Justin Trudeau thinks a bilingual Ottawa should be conditional on a bilingual Gatineau:


http://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/...justin-trudeau

One assumes that's his way of stymying the conversation? I feel at least 60% confident that he knows Gatineau is not the national capital.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

One assumes that's his way of stymying the conversation? I feel at least 60% confident that he knows Gatineau is not the national capital.

But Gatineau is part of the National Capital Region and does contain significant federal government assets.

What's good for the goose is also sauce for the gander after all..........