Winnipeg | True North Square | 86.9M | 77.8M | 25F | 17F | 22F | 17F | 19F | U/C

[esquire]

^ I think the only one I went to was at Gilroy's (where Hermano's is now) forever ago, like maybe around 2004?

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by Spocket

It's true that the market doesn't support a lot of office construction now but it also depends on which class of space we're talking about.

Well, class AA isn't in such great demand. Furthermore, TNS will command rents 30-50% higher than high quality competitors. Although they are seeing some lease-up, Winnipeg has never seen such rates so effectively the demand is zero.

The good news is that this helps push rates up, and Winnipeg needs that desperately. Our rents currently do not support the cost of construction.

Originally Posted by DowntownBooster

It seems that most major cities in North America continue to grow and with that the increase of demand for more office space and subsequent development of more towers. Why is it that Winnipeg seems to be the exception to the rule? We always seem to hear that Winnipeg is growing yet we also hear that if any new buildings go up it only means that existing companies are relocating from older buildings to newer ones. What seems to be the reason that Winnipeg can't seem to grow its office demand like other cities instead of just the reshuffling that goes on? Is there no hope for Winnipeg in that regard? Maybe the desire to be like other growing cities just isn't a reality for Winnipeg. The population may likely continue to grow but perhaps we just won't be a city that gets larger in terms of office demand/development.

Bad planning is a major one. Winnipeg sprawled and sprawled. U of M should never have been anywhere but also in downtown. The principle of a development fee from Bowman is rich, just because nobody cocked this up but the city of Winnipeg, and thereafter he didn't even plan to (initially) exempt downtown from these fees.

Originally... air travel. Those damned Wright brothers gave everyone who went through Winnipeg a way around/above it. Prov and Feds thought grain would make Winnipeg strong regardless. No, that's oil in Alberta, turns out.

Companies lost the need for a Winnipeg presence and it slowly deflated as other cities grew... Vancouver with it's forestry and coastal location, AB with Oil, TO because it's TO, Ottawa because it's the capital and of course (along with Montreal) the St Lawrence (and sheer size and established presence).

Originally Posted by 1ajs

part of the problem is realistate agents pushing the 24$ a sqft saces in the new suburban developments harder to get them to respond to u for a smaller sqft space downtown or any space at all its weird

Higher rents in suburbia are good, because they justify higher rents downtown. Nobody likes the suffering of a long lease-up period, but a higher rate precedent needs to be set.

Originally Posted by Spocket

Winnipeg does all right in terms of office space. We're not really that out of the ordinary. If you compare Winnipeg to somewhere like Calgary, well...we'll always be far behind. In fact, Calgary is a real outlier in global terms for a number of reasons but the least of which is how much office space it requires. Those days may well be over with the price crash at the same time as an accelerated push to alternative forms of energy.

Most cities in the world build themselves around a dense residential core. The North American model is definitely the odd one out. It's actually a good thing that we're heading that way now instead of the old model of spreading out forever.

Remember that when those companies leave for newer buildings, somebody eventually comes along and takes the space they've vacated. When they don't then somebody has to repurpose the space. There's nothing inherently good about office buildings except that they tend to be taller than residential.

The world is proven to be oil thirsty for a while, so Calgary will rebound.

But this isn't physics. If Company A vacates a space, it's not like company B suddenly fills that vacuum involuntarily... Winnipeg's downtown has had a relatively uninspiring vacancy despite not only low supply, but no NEW supply.

The principle of repurposing is good, but that's normal to lease up another office space. Repurposing for residential is fantastic, and while the trend in Winnipeg is moving in the right direction, it's still moving slowly.

[Biff]

It is my understanding that the Northland Properties (Sutton Hotel) people will be in town later this month or early next to review their designs for their project. I am not sure if this will be a public display or not. I'm sure images will leak out if not.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Biff

It is my understanding that the Northland Properties (Sutton Hotel) people will be in town later this month or early next to review their designs for their project. I am not sure if this will be a public display or not. I'm sure images will leak out if not.

There's a better chance that images will leak out if people likely to see the designs carry their phones with them to snap a few photos, just sayin'

[buzzg]

Earls is opening in the American Airlines Plaza in Dallas (owned by Northland, the Sutton Place parent company)... maybe they'll team up on something for the earls here, haha.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Higher rents in suburbia are good, because they justify higher rents downtown. Nobody likes the suffering of a long lease-up period, but a higher rate precedent needs to be set.

so u rather there be no demand for downtown and continue with status quo thats what u just said...

[factis]

A second concrete pump has been installed in the northwest corner of the lot. They were pouring all day yesterday. Pretty lucky break in the weather for them.

[bomberjet]

I snapped a couple photos the other day. Bottom two are zoomed in and are not that clear. She's starting to rise. Get a different perspective on it than from the cam view.

[Biff]

I just wanted to push the updating construction can to this page.

Originally Posted by rkspec

[bomberjet]

I assume there's an elevator pit along the Graham Ave side for the second tower. Couldn't really make out what is happening over in that area. But don't see anything elaborate like what's being done for the first tower.

[esquire]

Any word yet on the rumoured St. Mary's Cathedral development?

[1ajs]

anyone notice the interesting trussing on the west side of the pit?

[optimusREIM]

^I'm guessing forms for the parkade ramps?

[cllew]

for the roof trusses, I was thinking roofing to keep the snow / rain and eventually the sun off the floors as they set them up with rebar and conduit.

Depending on how they are made the tower cranes could fly them to a different section while the concrete is being placed by the pump towers.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

so u rather there be no demand for downtown and continue with status quo thats what u just said...

That's not how it works, and that's not what I said.

TNS, Artis, Shindico have all said it... I've said it a BILLION times on this forum... rents are too low downtown. If you want to DEVELOP/BUILD anything, the rents need to be high enough to cover our insanse construction costs.

That's the problem right now... how can we justify higher rents downtown when we aren't at full occupancy?

TNS has helped this, because they've forced the issue of $30+ psf at their project. Artis has used this as an opportunity to gently slide rents upwards (they were the most expensive previously, and their building is far from empty). Even with by far the highest office rental rates, TNS has needed plenty of assistance to make this project work.

Downside: Hardvard is causing a problem with 201 Portage... first off, they purchased it at too high a price, likely with future development in mind... and likely unaware of how high the cost of construction is and how the future rents may not cover it. Now, with Artis and TNS trying to actively nudge rates upwards and boost their development potential, Harvard is doing the opposite... drop their pants and get any tenant they can. Their building isn't run or maintained as well as the other towers at P+M.

So if suburban office rates are reaching $24, that means two GOOD things:

1) If that's considered pricey, then downtown is a great option. Not many buildings are renting that high. Ugh, especially not Harvard.

2) It helps downtown justify raising their rates... activity and momentum is building up in downtown, and if landlords are getting $24psf in suburbia, then hopefully downtown isn't far from $28psf.

Hi rent is good, because it makes future construction viable. With these civic and provincial grant programs ending, higher rent is needed.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Now, with Artis and TNS trying to actively nudge rates upwards and boost their development potential, Harvard is doing the opposite... drop their pants and get any tenant they can. Their building isn't run or maintained as well as the other towers at P+M.

What is lacking at 201 Portage? To my "regular joe" eyes, it looks like it's maintained to a standard similar to that of 360 Main and Lombard Place.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Downside: Hardvard is causing a problem with 201 Portage...

I heard that 201 Portage lost a couple of their major tenants. One was Agricore but that goes back a decent stretch now, the other was CanWest Global. In both those cases it was more jobs leaving the city than moving to a different building. This really started the pressure on them. They are also scheduled to lose a law firm to TNS once those offices open. In terms of long term tenants 201 seems to be hurting the most of the P&M towers right now, that said landing MTS as an anchor sure helped out the Bank of Montreal building. Perhaps Havard could take advantage of their current struggles and string together a decent block of continuous floors and make a pitch to the province on relocating MLLC to an existing building instead of building new. With all that TNS space coming online something is going to give elsewhere in the downtown office market as there is not really net growth in the office space market at least that I am seeing, it looks more like the same people moving between different chairs at the party.

[esquire]

^ One of the P&M towers always seems to have a really high vacancy rate any given time. For a while the BMO tower was nearly vacant and then MTS bought it. Then the Richardson Building was hurting for tenants, and now it's mostly full. Now 201 Portage is dealing with lots of empty space, mainly due to large tenants disappearing and not that many new ones to take their place... I think MNP is the only really big tenant they've landed in the last 10 years and it's not enough to offset all the losses.

I guess for a while 201 could rely on the prestige of being the newest and shiniest office tower in town, but considering that it's nearly 30 years old now that lustre is gone.

[DowntownBooster]

With all the downtown rates being so affordable, it would be great if some companies could be convinced to relocate from other cities where they are currently being charged much higher rates.

[esquire]

^ Back in the 90s when downtown was slumping hard, that was the pitch for prospective call centres. They were a big deal back then but the city only had moderate success in attracting them. What's the modern-day equivalent to that kind of function that relies on a relatively inexpensive labour force and cheap office space?