Geographic Misconceptions

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by Spocket

I don't even count these indexes when it comes to the weather. If it's cold then tell me the temperature and whether or not it's windy. I can't stand the people who claim they've been in temperatures of -60 or some such nonsense. No you haven't. Not even close. It was -15 with a stiff breeze (or whatever, you get the idea) Don't brag about how tough you are when it comes to the weather especially when you haven't even experienced what you're claiming to have experienced.

Snare Lake in NWT, -60, No wind. -57 Garden River Alberta, No wind. -55 Rankin Inlet Nunavut and windy. -51 Pond Inlet Nunavut, no wind.

[lio45]

BTW, I'm in complete agreement with you guys that anyone who'd pass the windchill value as the one and only current outside temperature in a weather report, that would be a total fail. It's not "-28C" outside if it's actually -15C. But it does feel like -28C, unlike a non-windy -15C day.

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by lio45

BTW, I'm in complete agreement with you guys that anyone who'd pass the windchill value as the one and only current outside temperature in a weather report, that would be a total fail. It's not "-28C" outside if it's actually -15C. But it does feel like -28C, unlike a non-windy -15C day.

I usually only look at the Temp, however if I am going outdoors the wind speed is helpful in knowing the appropriate clothing. The difference is whether I wear a toque or a jacket with a deep tunnel hood.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Andy6

But you might be able to get out of the wind, reducing your discomfort. That’s not an option if it’s really -28, so the equivalence is dubious.

And it doesn't have an effect on objects at the ambient temperature. If it's +2 out with high winds, you won't find that rain changes to snow, the sidewalk freezes, plants get killed by frost. If it's -10 and windy it won't keep your car from starting.

You can dress for wind specifically by putting on a thin layer of material.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

Obviously getting out of the wind is not an option on an open jobsite.

But maybe you're biking to work at 10 km/h so if you align it just right that 10 km/h wind cancels out and makes it feel warmer!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

And it doesn't have an effect on objects at the ambient temperature.

Yes, obviously. If you go outside poorly-dressed in "-15C feels like -28C" and stay there and wait, eventually your cadaver will stabilize at a temperature of -15C, not -28C, we're in agreement there. However the time it will take for you to expire is directly linked to that -28C figure, not the -15C one.

I think the latter figure is pretty relevant too...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Airboy

I usually only look at the Temp, however if I am going outdoors the wind speed is helpful in knowing the appropriate clothing. The difference is whether I wear a toque or a jacket with a deep tunnel hood.

Are you guys really arguing that of the following three possible weather reports, your favorite, all things considered, is not the third?

"-15C and extremely windy"

"-15C with 62 km/h winds"

"-15C feels like -28C"

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by lio45

Are you guys really arguing that of the following three possible weather reports, your favorite, all things considered, is not the third?

"-15C and extremely windy"

"-15C with 62 km/h winds"

"-15C feels like -28C"

colder the better.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yes, obviously. If you go outside poorly-dressed in "-15C feels like -28C" and stay there and wait, eventually your cadaver will stabilize at a temperature of -15C, not -28C, we're in agreement there. However the time it will take for you to expire is directly linked to that -28C figure, not the -15C one.

This is one thing at really cold temperatures where you can quickly get frostbite but it's a bit different in conditions I am used to.

On the coasts in winter it's common to have conditions in the single digits. On the east coast especially (Vancouver gets very little wind) a lot of winter days might be +2 and windy. Even at +5 there can be sub-zero wind chills that I pretty much ignore.

The 30 km/h wind chill for 0 is -7. At actual -7 I'd wear a big winter jacket but at 0 with wind I'd wear the same thing I wear outside of summer (or to be honest sometimes even during the summer), a light jacket (windbreaker).

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by lio45

Are you guys really arguing that of the following three possible weather reports, your favorite, all things considered, is not the third?

"-15C and extremely windy"

"-15C with 62 km/h winds"

"-15C feels like -28C"

I prefer the first. I know that sounds crazy, but the reason for that is that every day the actual temperature and "feels like" are different, to the point that I don't know what the "feels like" value actually feels like! As in, you say it feels like -28C with the windchill, but when the temperature actually is -28, you say it feels like -35. So how am I supposed to know how to prepare for a "feels like" of anything?

Instead, I've just learned through lived experience how to dress for different actual temperatures, and making adjustments for wind/cloud cover by that experience. When I see -15C, I know more or less what that will feel like still, with wind, with sun, etc. When you put a second number there, I honestly just get confused. But I always dress according to the first one, and I can't say it's failed me.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is one thing at really cold temperatures where you can quickly get frostbite but it's a bit different in conditions I am used to.

On the coasts in winter it's common to have conditions in the single digits. On the east coast especially (Vancouver gets very little wind) a lot of winter days might be +2 and windy. Even at +5 there can be sub-zero wind chills that I pretty much ignore.

The 30 km/h wind chill for 0 is -7. At actual -7 I'd wear a big winter jacket but at 0 with wind I'd wear the same thing I wear outside of summer, a light jacket (windbreaker).

This is kind of what I was trying to say in my previous post too. I'm gonna get out of minuses now cause I'm less familiar with them, but I know that 17 degrees overcast is jeans weather, but with sun I might wear shorts. If you add a second number there, it's of much less use to me.

Similarly, 5 degrees in Vancouver feels the same as -5 in Winnipeg. I don't care about the "feels like," I've just learned the feelings that correspond with these numbers in different settings. Often the wind/humidity/rain isn't even something I explicitly consider - I just know what it'll be like from going outside every day of my life.

[Xelebes]

Health warnings are important. If you are advised to wear long-sleeve shirts becaue the UV index is high, that will be important to know. If there are heat warnings, keep water close by and make sure the air is moving around you. You don't want 40 dead from heat like we just saw in Quebec. Same with wind chill warnings. The air can be deceiving if it is still and can be devilish when it is cold that could cause warnings about frostbite and hypothermia. We don't see as many people dying from cold in Canada as we do from heat.

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

Health warnings are important. If you are advised to wear long-sleeve shirts becaue the UV index is high, that will be important to know. If there are heat warnings, keep water close by and make sure the air is moving around you. You don't want 40 dead from heat like we just saw in Quebec. Same with wind chill warnings. The air can be deceiving if it is still and can be devilish when it is cold that could cause warnings about frostbite and hypothermia. We don't see as many people dying from cold in Canada as we do from heat.

Interesting, you also have to stay hydrated in the winter.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Similarly, 5 degrees in Vancouver feels the same as -5 in Winnipeg. I don't care about the "feels like," I've just learned the feelings that correspond with these numbers in different settings. Often the wind/humidity/rain isn't even something I explicitly consider - I just know what it'll be like from going outside every day of my life.

The sun makes a big difference too, and more of a difference in winter the farther south you go. Vancouver is almost always cloudy in winter.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I prefer the first. I know that sounds crazy...

It does sound crazy! The one I favor conveys all the info yours does and then some. It's unarguably superior - and even shorter!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

It does sound crazy! The one I favor conveys all the info yours does and then some. It's unarguably superior - and even shorter!

How about:

"-15C, wind chill -28C"

So we are explicit about the second one being a wind chill value, and if people care they can figure out for themselves what that entails. I think this is also closest to what I have heard from actual meteorologists.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

When I see -15C, I know more or less what that will feel like still, with wind, with sun, etc. When you put a second number there, I honestly just get confused.

Actually if I only had access to a single number I think I'd probably take the windchill over the actual temp. Say, I'm in a black box with no windows, I have to prepare for being dropped outside for the day, and I only have access to my pick of one single number, windchill or actual temp, to base my assessment of what my workday outside will look like, I'll pick windchill.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

How about:

"-15C, wind chill -28C"

So we are explicit about the second one being a wind chill value, and if people care they can figure out for themselves what that entails. I think this is also closest to what I have heard from actual meteorologists.

That's pretty much exactly what they always say, BTW.

In fact I don't think there's even a way to say it without mentioning the wind (in French), unless you make un-natural verbal contortions ("température ressentie" and going out of your way to avoid saying wind, over any variation of "-15, -28 avec le vent").

From the POV of my argument here, "-15C feels like -28C" is "-15C windchill -28C". It's interchangeable to me. Of course as a scientist I prefer the latter, but anyone hearing the former hears the latter (IMO). Unless you're really stupid.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

From the POV of my argument here, "-15C feels like -28C" is "-15C windchill -28C". It's interchangeable to me. Of course as a scientist I prefer the latter, but anyone hearing the former hears the latter (IMO). Unless you're really stupid.

I have seen this game of telephone:

"It is -5, -15 with the wind chill!"
"It's -15"
"It's -15, it must be -25 with the wind chill!"
"It's always below -20 here!"

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by lio45

It does sound crazy! The one I favor conveys all the info yours does and then some. It's unarguably superior - and even shorter!

I mean we all have our preferences! I know objectively it's weird to want less information, but it just confuses me. Makes me doubt my instincts, which have been right more often than the number values!

In any case, I'm a big boy and with enough strength and resolve can overcome this debilitating issue. So they can write whatever they like and it doesn't matter, as long as there's a clear "actual temperature" too (often the "feels like" is bigger). What actually annoys me is when people use +wind chill values in common parlance without specifying that's what they mean, because then I assume they mean without it, and I adjust to that to account for the wind that's not actually there, on and on. EDIT: Exactly what someone123 just said above ^