London Roads

[manny_santos]

I'd rather see a freeway get built along the north side of the city, with links to the VMP and Highway 402. Unless London undergoes another annexation in Middlesex County, that would have to be a provincial project. Which means it'll never happen since we're not Toronto and we don't have a border crossing.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I'd rather see a freeway get built along the north side of the city, with links to the VMP and Highway 402. Unless London undergoes another annexation in Middlesex County, that would have to be a provincial project. Which means it'll never happen since we're not Toronto and we don't have a border crossing.

I belive Middlesex county was interested in the project if they had major concessions granted to them. Too bad the City has developed right up to the City limits by Adelaide & Sunningdale and did not preserve any ROW for a future expressway in that corridor. I don't see annexation taking place to the north for a very long time, especially with such good freeway access in developable lands to the south with the 401 & 402.

I still think an VMP like roadway on the west side of London (Westdel Bourne area) would be great. In fact, I'd prefer it instead of a direct freeway access to the 402 in Strathroy, since you can easily get on Highway 22 west without any major problems in traffic with what exists. However, getting to the 401 Eastbound from where I grew up in Oakridge is a major pain in the butt. It easily takes 20-30 minutes to connect to Wonderland/402, and going through Lambeth is no way faster.

I've heard inklings that the 402 was originally supposed to go above the City to the north and then drop down and meet the 401 somewhere east of the city. The current alignment does not serve really any purpose to Londoners (which is alright - since it is mainly to connect city-to-city, and not serve a intra-city commute). That would have been ideal, especially if a West End Connector between that and the 401 could have been constructed.

Oh well, it's not the end of the world.

[haljackey]

I'm not sure about the county's decision, but all municipalities north have London have rejected any plans for a freeway.

Yes the 402 was originally supposed to go through the city and hook up with the 401 east of where it is presently located. See this old map from 1968 for it's original route:



Because the city failed to make Highbury a full freeway or seriously consider Highway 100 (later Airport Road, now VMP. Too many names lol!), a new alignment for the 402 was built. That's why it curves around the city to interchange with the 401. Other than the junctions with Highway 4 and Wonderland Road, it has almost no use as a commuter road for London.

As for a VMP-like route (expressway) in the west, I could see this happening if land is protected now. Perhaps in the long term it could be upgraded to a freeway. The VMP will need to be a freeway up to Oxford and an expressway to Fanshawe Park road in the mid term, becoming a freeway the whole way in the long term.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I'm not sure about the county's decision, but all municipalities north have London have rejected any plans for a freeway.

Yes the 402 was originally supposed to go through the city and hook up with the 401 east of where it is presently located. See this old map from 1968 for it's original route:



Because the city failed to make Highbury a full freeway or seriously consider Highway 100 (later Airport Road, now VMP. Too many names lol!), a new alignment for the 402 was built. That's why it curves around the city to interchange with the 401. Other than the junctions with Highway 4 and Wonderland Road, it has almost no use as a commuter road for London.

As for a VMP-like route (expressway) in the west, I could see this happening if land is protected now. Perhaps in the long term it could be upgraded to a freeway. The VMP will need to be a freeway up to Oxford and an expressway to Fanshawe Park road in the mid term, becoming a freeway the whole way in the long term.

Interesting Picture. Sarnia Road back then was known as Springport Road, while Gainsborough road back then was known as Sarnia Road!!!

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I'm not sure about the county's decision, but all municipalities north have London have rejected any plans for a freeway.

Yes the 402 was originally supposed to go through the city and hook up with the 401 east of where it is presently located. See this old map from 1968 for it's original route:



Because the city failed to make Highbury a full freeway or seriously consider Highway 100 (later Airport Road, now VMP. Too many names lol!), a new alignment for the 402 was built. That's why it curves around the city to interchange with the 401. Other than the junctions with Highway 4 and Wonderland Road, it has almost no use as a commuter road for London.

As for a VMP-like route (expressway) in the west, I could see this happening if land is protected now. Perhaps in the long term it could be upgraded to a freeway. The VMP will need to be a freeway up to Oxford and an expressway to Fanshawe Park road in the mid term, becoming a freeway the whole way in the long term.

Wow, great find. I have been looking for such a graphic for a long time. Can you imagine if that had come to pass? The area around Fanshawe would probably be dense industrial, with the areas north and south dense commercial/residential. Would have pulled the entire city northward. Arva would probably be the size of st. thomas.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Wow, great find. I have been looking for such a graphic for a long time.

If you have here's another freeway plan, this time from 1959.



To be honest I like the 1968 plan better because in the 1959 plan Highbury runs along the Thames River.

[MolsonExport]

^Scary, a la Robert Moses. Freeway the Thames.

[Snark]

Being a professional in this sort of biz, I can honestly say that the CAA thingy is a cheap publicity stunt. It is essentially meaningless. There are plenty of ways to ascertain the correct answers to CAA's question, but they don't want that. They want another stupid vox populi PR gimmick that has no scientific underpinning. If folks saw what the truly worst roads were, they would be quite surprised.

Most people here don't understand this, but most rail overpasses are primarily controlled by the railroad, not the City, and they are generally not enthusiastic about sinking cash into widening road crossings.

As for the widenings that you speak of? $40 mil as a first guess.

Originally Posted by haljackey

Despite the recent widening/upgrades between Huron University College and Richmond Street, Warncliffe/Western Road has been named London's worst road and the 16th worst in the province, according to the CAA.

Link to source: http://www.caasco.com/community/wors...orst-roads.jsp

The recent reconstruction is nice, but it doesn't help the fact that the road still bottlenecks north of Western and near Horton Street. These are primarily due to the old rail overpasses that are not long enough to accommodate a wide roadway.

Next time you drive between Oxford Street and Patt's lane, look at more than the road. There isn't even a sidewalk on one side, and the sidewalk on the other side very narrow and is right at the curve. What a great way to impress people coming to Western.

The road needs to have 4 through lanes the whole way from Lambeth with enough land protected to widen it to 6 lanes in the future.

Maybe bus lanes are a good idea too between Dundas and Lambton, as the amount of bus traffic on that stretch is high. Another alternative is LRT, possibly having a line in a new median. Bike lanes are an absolute must.

The road surface isn't very good for the majority of its length either. I drive from Westmount to Western a lot and most times I'll just take Wonderland as it is a safer drive dispute Warncliffe being the faster route for me.


What other roads suck?

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Snark

Being a professional in this sort of biz, I can honestly say that the CAA thingy is a cheap publicity stunt. It is essentially meaningless. There are plenty of ways to ascertain the correct answers to CAA's question, but they don't want that. They want another stupid vox populi PR gimmick that has no scientific underpinning. If folks saw what the truly worst roads were, they would be quite surprised.

Most people here don't understand this, but most rail overpasses are primarily controlled by the railroad, not the City, and they are generally not enthusiastic about sinking cash into widening road crossings.

As for the widenings that you speak of? $40 mil as a first guess.

I completely agree. Still, the survey does identify roads that do need upgrades, despite the multiple factors that prevent this from happening. Of course there ARE much worse roads than the one in the list.

Kinda sucks about CP and CN, but that's life I guess. They want to spend the least amount of money as possible, and thus things are built to last for the short term, not long term.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Snark

Being a professional in this sort of biz, I can honestly say that the CAA thingy is a cheap publicity stunt. It is essentially meaningless. There are plenty of ways to ascertain the correct answers to CAA's question, but they don't want that. They want another stupid vox populi PR gimmick that has no scientific underpinning. If folks saw what the truly worst roads were, they would be quite surprised.

Yeah...try driving on some roads in Mexico. One freeway I've been on just outside Mexico City, with a speed limit of 110 km/h, had a posted advisory speed of 40 km/h at a bridge approach. It was like the approach to London's Kensington Bridge (Riverside Drive, anyone who has crossed that bridge on a London Transit bus will know what I mean), but only steeper. Some side streets in Mexico City are so narrow they are impassable if there's any cars parked along them - which is allowed overnight 365 days a year. And some members of London City Council thought overnight parking here was a problem.

Originally Posted by Snark

Most people here don't understand this, but most rail overpasses are primarily controlled by the railroad, not the City, and they are generally not enthusiastic about sinking cash into widening road crossings.

Very true - if I recall correctly, the Hale/Trafalgar overpass didn't get off the ground until the federal government kicked in enough money. CN was only willing to put up a certain amount, as was the City.

[haljackey]

Here's some photos I took of Highway 401 from the Wellington Road overpass.

Looking east:


Looking west:


Zoom in looking west showing the Highway 401/402 interchange in the distance.
(This one is now on London's Wikipedia page and the 401 article.)




I also made a couple videos of the 401 and VMP.

This was my first time making road videos, so please forgive the shaky camera. Also, part of the tripod is visible in the windshield's reflection. Once again, sorry! I now know better for next time. :lol:

Both are sped up 3x to keep them interesting.

Highway 401 eastbound in London:
• Video Link

Veterans Memorial Parkway (VMP for short) northbound in London:
• Video Link

Hope you enjoy them!

[manny_santos]

Something has got to be done about Springbank Drive and Commissioners Road heading from Wonderland Road west into Byron. I don't normally come home that way during rush hour but yesterday I ended up there. Heading west on Springbank I hit a line of cars that wasn't moving just west of Wonderland, where it narrows from 4 lanes down to 2. I thought there was construction or an accident. As the traffic slowly moved along, I found out it was lined up solidly from west of Boler and Commissioners in Byron, all the way out to Wonderland. Pure volume - no accidents or construction.

The whole Byron area is becoming a gigantic mess with rush hour traffic, especially as both it and River Bend continue to expand. Commissioners was supposed to be widened by 2011 according to plans I remember seeing in the mid-90s, but I know there was a NIMBY protest against it.

[haljackey]

Here's a new road video of mine. It shows the Highbury extension, Highway 401 and 402.

• Video Link

Hope you enjoy it!

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Here's a new road video of mine. It shows the Highbury extension, Highway 401 and 402.

• Video Link

Hope you enjoy it!

Neat. It's my hometown, and man, I miss driving out there. Keep them coming.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Here's a new road video of mine. It shows the Highbury extension, Highway 401 and 402.

• Video Link

Hope you enjoy it!

Quite cool.

Almost no traffic whatsoever. Highbury is still a complete mystery to me...seems like such a waste of space for offering perhaps 4kms of speed (and only 2 overpasses). I know that Snark explained why it is so, but I am still grappling with the half-assedness of the whole thing.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Hey interesting stuff on here!

Just wanted to re-post what I had on City Smart move site.

The main problem getting around London is the constant stop and go traffic. The traffic lights in this city seem to be counter-intuitive to getting around this city. Main arteries like Commissioners, Wellington & Wonderland have the worst coordinated light system, where you will constantly hit red lights at every intersection, major or minor, which is the cause of the traffic congestion and idling that adds pollution.

Being able to travel rapidly is the solution to this. While there have been ring road proposals going back to the 1950's, this to me doesn't provide people who live in London with a solution, but to people traveling around London.

My suggestion is a Crosstown Expressway. Starting in the west by Oxford & Wonderland (although this could be started at Hyde Park Road or Gainsborough), traveling along the CN rail corridor, an expressway built over-top of this rail corridor similar to Toronto's Gardener Expressway. This expressway could have interchanges at major intersections along the corridor, Wharncliffe, Wellington, Adelaide, Highbury, Clarke Roads. The eastern terminus would be at Veterans Memorial Parkway, where traffic could easily access the 401.

This would link traffic from overcrowded arteries thus reducing them, give commuters a dedicated expressway to travel rapidly throughout the city, link up to VMP which is the de facto eastern expressway to give access to the 401. As well this would require minimum expropriation of land, the rail corridor already runs through London and acts as a psychological cut-off. Putting an expressway on the same land would allow the the people of London and CN to benefit from its use.

I know its an ambitious idea, but we need to do something now about traffic, otherwise its bound to get worse and worse with the growth of London and the amount of commuters in the city!

[MolsonExport]

^interesting, but it would only lead to sprawl and the flight from inner-urban areas.

Better would be to (1) match up a few more dead links (there needs to be an east-west throughway between Fanshawe Pk road and Oxford, and Wellington needs to somehow go through to Fanshawe Pk road; and (2) synchronise the traffic signals. My dream would be for a light rail line (or tram) between Masonville and White Oaks, threading through UWO and Downtown.

[haljackey]

lol I guess I might as well repost my message from the Smartmoves site here as well.

Interesting idea, but sadly it will never happen.

Why?
1. Cost. Elevated highways are crazy expensive and have huge maintenance costs.

2. NIMBYism. No one will like having this close to their homes. I know the CN cooridor is already there but building an elevated highway on top of it will make it very visible over a large distance. There would be way, way too much public and political opposition. Hardly any new elevated highways have been built since the end of the 20th century... just look at the plans to tear down the Gardiner in Toronto or the Big Dig projects in Boston and Madrid that moved the elevated portions underground.

3. Usefulness. I doubt this will ever be fully utilized. It may have if something similar was built back in the days the governments actually provided funding for freeway building, but you won't get good bang for your buck these days.

Back in the 1960's there was a plan to route a freeway or expressway through the Thames River valley from the Highbury expressway to downtown. That would have been the only place a cross-town expressway could actually fit in to the landscape. However that dream died long ago and now London is forced to choke on it's overworked, congested arterial system.

I believe London is the largest city in North America that doesn't have a freeway to serve local traffic, and it doesn't look like we'll be getting one any time soon. Just look at this site, it's a push from the city to get away from cars and switch to transit. While the idea is good, increasing road capacity is a must because cars aren't going away any time soon, they might just be switching to a new energy source in the near future.


Simply put, nice vision!

[manny_santos]

One of the key corridor improvements I'd like to see is linking Sarnia Road and Huron Street, to provide another east-west artery through the city.

I still honestly think a lot of the best ideas to fix the transportation system were in the 1973 roads study - it had a vision that included public transit and even bike paths.

[go_leafs_go02]

Rather see an emphasis towards a major transit line and a few nodes to connect through the major points of the city rather than road expansion. There's lot of possibilities for connections and routes - but that would also involve using present road ROW.

We need also to focus on redevelopment and intensification in and around the core. Seeing the sprawl that still goes on everywhere, it's cul-de-sacs, dead-ends and curvy roads that go nowhere.

Hope that can change, but London is still developing in the residential areas like it's 1970 still. Nothing in London that I've seen is anything modern along the lines with back lanes, a street grid system, etc.