HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Hamilton > General Discussion


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 1:47 AM
JT Jacobs JT Jacobs is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by raisethehammer View Post
with all due respect, that's exactly what I am doing. I've seen his post sitting there like the usual bait, and I'm not taking it.
I'm more than happy to keep this forum about Hamilton and it's various issues.
Fair enough. Thanks for keeping things on track.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 1:57 AM
fastcarsfreedom's Avatar
fastcarsfreedom fastcarsfreedom is offline
On Guard For Thee
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Essex County
Posts: 1,007
Now we're concerning ourselves with staying on track on a thread about that exact topic?

Civility has been gone from this Forum for ages--I've beaten that drum so many times that it finally broke and I had to take up pottery to occupy my time. I am all for a greater level of civility and less personal animosity.

With that in mind--the entire issue of "trolling" is wildly overstated in the context of this Forum. I have seen only a few instances of actual "troll" behavior--barely enough to warrant even a mention. Nonetheless, a recent tactic has been to accuse those who simply dissent of being trolls--which is utterly and completely ridiculous and counter-democratic. If I were to come on board and make a statement about organized labor or the political situation in the Middle East that was blatantly biased and designed to illicit a particular response--that would be trolling. When 100 posters say one thing and I come on to counter that--that isn't trolling--that's an argument.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 2:14 AM
HAMRetrofit's Avatar
HAMRetrofit HAMRetrofit is offline
Pro Urban Degenerate
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto-Hamilton Mega Region
Posts: 839
Goldfinger and BCTed if you just posted more like Fastcarsfreedom these threads would be a better place. Although I may not agree with many of Fastcarsfreedom's posts I can respect that he has enough patience to present his arguments clearly and pragmatically. I understand that we all share different views here but if we try to advance the discussion with more explanation and respect for other's point of view perhaps we will have an easier time getting a more neutral debate going.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 2:27 AM
BCTed BCTed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by raisethehammer View Post
with all due respect, that's exactly what I am doing. I've seen his post sitting there like the usual bait, and I'm not taking it.
I'm more than happy to keep this forum about Hamilton and it's various issues.
Don't reflect this back onto me. I was referring specifically to you and your contribution on this board --- you have already repeatedly let me know that I am a troll and contribute nothing. I have already gone on and on defending myself anyway --- at this point, I can almost re-type my past defensive posts verbatim.

Here is my take on you: You are one of the most offputting characters I have come across on the Internet in a long time and the way that I have seen you treating certain people other than myself on this board corroborates my opinion. If you would soften your stance and stop being so grossly intolerant and entirely dismissive of viewpoints other than your own, I would have little incentive to go back and forth with you all the time.

Given that you will not be taking this "bait", I am happy to have the last word between us in this thread.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 2:38 AM
BCTed BCTed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit View Post
Goldfinger and BCTed if you just posted more like Fastcarsfreedom these threads would be a better place. Although I may not agree with many of Fastcarsfreedom's posts I can respect that he has enough patience to present his arguments clearly and pragmatically. I understand that we all share different views here but if we try to advance the discussion with more explanation and respect for other's point of view perhaps we will have an easier time getting a more neutral debate going.
I am happy to have Goldfinger on board as a member and I like his posts, but I have quite a different style than he does and I am disappointed that you cannot seem to tell the difference. Goldy's approach is much more raw than is mine. I have respect for the points of view of others and have never hurled insults or harsh language at anyone, with the exception of two words I used to describe raisethehammer.

It is really always me who has been attacked for presenting different points of view. Goodness, I got absolutely roasted for presenting reasons why people might choose to live in the suburbs without ever saying what my thoughts were on those reasons. The same was true for light rail --- I am on the fence with it, but I presented opinions of others on why light rail may not work and got creamed. I could go on and on some more, but have already gone on and on enough for now.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 2:44 AM
BCTed BCTed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Jacobs View Post
Why don't both of you take your petty little feud off of the public airwaves. I don't like to speak for others, but I'll wager that most of us have had way more than enough. Why do you feel the need to bicker publicly?

Can we just talk about the issues that face Hamilton?

Sorry that you have gotten caught in the crossfire, but flar created this thread in hopes of creating an environment of "courteousness and mutual respect", and if there was ever a thread to air things out, this is it. I believe that raisethehammer is neither courteous nor respectful in many, many, many instances and I am not just referring to posts that involve our petty little feud. He may be passionate about downtown Hamilton, but that does not give him licence to carry on the way he often does.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 3:05 AM
BCTed BCTed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,206
I am starting to go on and on again, but just read the below post and then the reply it got back from raisethehammer a couple of posts down:http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...52#post3466052

Was raisethehammer really baited into calling what I wrote a "lame rebuttal"? Was I trolling?

I have tried several times to make peace with this guy and have even somehow confused myself into believing that I was overly harsh with him, but the result has always been the same.

I confess that my ratio of feud:non-feud posts has gotten unreasonably high in recent weeks/months, but I have difficulty reading his endless posts about idiots and morons and crybabies and scum developers and useless politicians and clueless suburbanites without being stirred into action.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 3:24 AM
Millstone Millstone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Colborne, ON
Posts: 889
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCTed View Post
Why don't you make an honest effort to practice what you preach? I really think you have to sit down one day and objectively evaluate what your true contribution is to this board.
Seconded.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 4:18 AM
HAMRetrofit's Avatar
HAMRetrofit HAMRetrofit is offline
Pro Urban Degenerate
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto-Hamilton Mega Region
Posts: 839
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCTed View Post
I am happy to have Goldfinger on board as a member and I like his posts, but I have quite a different style than he does and I am disappointed that you cannot seem to tell the difference. Goldy's approach is much more raw than is mine.
I can tell the difference, let me assure you. To clarify just look at Fastcarfreedom's posts he actually presents his case. I may never agree with a post you make but at least if you make a valid argument you may come off as someone worth listening too. Another thing to consider, if you post something you know that 90 percent of the people support and feel strongly about expect to get blasted. If you are going to do that at least bring facts to support your argument because obviously people are going to be hard on you.

If I walked into the National Rifle Association and advocated for gun registration what do you think the outcome would be?

Last edited by HAMRetrofit; Apr 27, 2008 at 4:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 4:53 AM
fastcarsfreedom's Avatar
fastcarsfreedom fastcarsfreedom is offline
On Guard For Thee
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Essex County
Posts: 1,007
Interesting discussion--I think this discourse is all very healthy and hopefully will lead to more constructive discussion here.

The only point I would add HAMRetrofit is that in my experience with SkyscraperPage it's a development information-related Forum--I don't believe anywhere that it is branded as the exclusive domain of any particular political or ideological group. Therefore, though your NRA example is an effective illustration--it suggests that this Forum is somehow the proprietary domain of a particular group--which I don't believe is the case. RTH for example, runs a separate site which is quite obviously an agenda-driven site which works to extend his particular vision forward. If I were to take my dissenting opinions there--I think I could, in fairness, expect to be "blasted." Nonetheless SkyscraperPage is, and should remain, more free-form. There are all sorts of posters of all sorts of backgrounds here--some with agendas--and some, Flar comes to mind, who are simply rich with talent.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 11:52 AM
BCTed BCTed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit View Post
I can tell the difference, let me assure you. To clarify just look at Fastcarfreedom's posts he actually presents his case. I may never agree with a post you make but at least if you make a valid argument you may come off as someone worth listening too. Another thing to consider, if you post something you know that 90 percent of the people support and feel strongly about expect to get blasted. If you are going to do that at least bring facts to support your argument because obviously people are going to be hard on you.

If I walked into the National Rifle Association and advocated for gun registration what do you think the outcome would be?
As far as I know, this is an open forum and is not comparable to the NRA.

I believe I know how to present an argument. I have presented link after link and fact after fact in the past, but it never got me anywhere. What do people remember? They (incorrectly) remember that I stated that there is no truck traffic on Main Street and they use that as a point of reference for discrediting anything and everything I say. raisethehammer in particular has a weird revisionist way of taking things I have said in the past and completely misparaphrasing them.

It is one thing to be the only man in a room to hold a certain opinion --- it is quite another to be attacked and given inappropriate and insulting labels for simply holding that opinion. There is little give and take here. I do have respect for the opinions of others and have no trouble conceding points. I am ready to acknowledge my errors if I am proven to be wrong about something. However, I find it incredibly difficult to have even minute subsets of my own arguments acknowledged. Every little point gets shot down as if it were the most ridiculous thing ever stated.

I realize that my posts are not always a picnic to read --- I have readily conceded that on multiple occasions --- but let me insulate myself from the discussion for now. A number of people on this forum make it difficult for me to read and participate in this forum and I have no problem with pointing out raisethehammer as my prime example. I find him to be rude and hostile and intolerant. I also find him to be flat-out bigoted in many ways (against suburbanites, et cetera). He has tried to have me blackballed on at least one occasion for simply arguing my opinion and has dismissed much of what I have said as a "waste of time".

I like to think that my time counts for something too, and I do not think it is well spent reading raisethehammer's endless venom.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 12:33 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,054
fastcars....not that it matters, but I don't run RTH.
Maybe I should change my screen name. You're the second person here who thought that. lol.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 4:09 PM
fastcarsfreedom's Avatar
fastcarsfreedom fastcarsfreedom is offline
On Guard For Thee
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Essex County
Posts: 1,007
It's an easy assumption--in fact I based upon past postings and comments that eluded to the fact that you were, at the very least, closely associated with the site. Nevertheless, I stand by the gist of what I said--that is, that I could expect a site that is so clearly motivated by a particular worldview to be hostile--whereas this one, at least by definition, ought to be more open--hence the name "Forum". Speaking of Forum--Go Habs.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2008, 4:19 PM
HAMRetrofit's Avatar
HAMRetrofit HAMRetrofit is offline
Pro Urban Degenerate
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto-Hamilton Mega Region
Posts: 839
Regarding the NRA analogy, what would give an individual insight that they are completely anti gun registration? Within their group I am sure that there is some discussion of its plausibility. They are an association of gun owners that may or may not lobby for or against that particular piece of legislation.

The key point is personal insight. I think we are all smart people here. I think that we are intelligent enough to have insight into the perspective of the majority of the group. For example, in a thread discussing rapid transit posting anti rapid transit rhetoric will get blasted, it is not rocket science. If an individual is going to post an opinion completely against the grain just bring a constructive argument to expand the conversation. Still expect others to disagree strongly with you regardless of the facts your present most people cannot be swayed one way or the other regardless.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2008, 3:53 AM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is offline
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit View Post
If an individual is going to post an opinion completely against the grain just bring a constructive argument to expand the conversation.
I know I'm just a lurker, but I thought I'd chime in here: You keep on repeating the canard that BCTed does not present constructive arguments, but that is simply not true. He does.

What he does not do, however, is appease the group on this forum who dislike what he has to say. He is not conciliatory enough to you and others on this board who appear to represent (or wish to represent) the orthodoxy viz. the suburbs, mass transit, downtown etc.

All of which is interesting from a spectator's perspective. I agree that the initial post in this thread is overblown: did one expect hand-holding and kumbayas? In my view public forums should be held to a modicum of decorum, to be sure, but disagreement is their raison d'etre. Straight information dissemination is for company memos.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2008, 4:50 AM
fastcarsfreedom's Avatar
fastcarsfreedom fastcarsfreedom is offline
On Guard For Thee
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Essex County
Posts: 1,007
Excellent post rousseau--your input is valuable. Ted has been attacked various times for presenting a point-of-view that is "against the grain" within the context of this Forum. There have been times he has used the blunt insturment to make his points--but in no different a way than various other frequent contributors do to have their own arguments heard. Dissent is good--it's healthy and necessary--the arguments I engage in ulitmately make the message stronger--that's what debate is about. Though I believe calling the Forum's state "critical" is sheer hyperbole--the modicum of respect and decency you mention has eroded--and there have been times I've been tempted to throw my own committment to respect on the woodpile and come out all guns ablaze. In the end I think the exercise that is this particular thread will serve to be a positive one--at least that's my hope.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2008, 5:37 AM
HAMRetrofit's Avatar
HAMRetrofit HAMRetrofit is offline
Pro Urban Degenerate
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto-Hamilton Mega Region
Posts: 839
If someone is going to be blunt and post something they know everyone is going to dismiss they are just wasting their time and others. If they cared enough for anyone to see their point of view in the first place they would explain themselves. Otherwise they are just stirring the shit.

I think we are way to tolerant to garbage like this in the Hamilton threads. Go try this in some of the Alberta threads and see the response you get.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2008, 7:57 AM
the dude the dude is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,812
seriously, it took bcted months to admit that there might be an occasional truck on york/cannon. in fact, they're continuous along that particular route. before my departure, i walked those streets daily and can attest to the truck traffic but, naturally, he would have none of it. that's the type of argument he brings to the forum. i also recall him trying to suggest that lrt takes more lives than the automobile. please now. i hate rehashing these sorts of things but as another poster has stated, he loves stirring the shit. 'what, me?' he says. 'i didn't do anything.'
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2008, 11:00 AM
BCTed BCTed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
I know I'm just a lurker, but I thought I'd chime in here: You keep on repeating the canard that BCTed does not present constructive arguments, but that is simply not true. He does.
Thanks for the backing!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2008, 11:38 AM
BCTed BCTed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,206
duplicate post

Last edited by BCTed; Apr 28, 2008 at 12:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Hamilton > General Discussion
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:52 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.