The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Is that a Challenge or a Hope?

Hope, if anything.

[ErickMontreal]

I heard from a Future Shop employee that the Wal-Mart will shut down their current location and move up the hill to East Point Shopping. The same employe told us that the land being clearing out would land Wal-Mart.

Is there something true behind this, I have no idea. One thing that seems sure at this point is that the Wal-Mart at the current location will move. It would be a done deal.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by ErickMontreal

I heard from a Future Shop employee that the Wal-Mart will shut down their current location and move up the hill to East Point Shopping. The same employe told us that the land being clearing out would land Wal-Mart.

Is there something true behind this, I have no idea. One thing that seems sure at this point is that the Wal-Mart at the current location will move. It would be a done deal.

The rumour from a year ago was that the new Wal-Mart location at the top of the hill would be a Supercentre. Their current location east was supposed to be a Supercentre until they realized they were building on a swamp.

The new set of lights built near Carquest are evidence that future developments are planned.

[philster]

Keeping on the Walmart subject, Drove by Lancaster Mall on the West Side, and they've alread added "Walmart" on the actual Lancaster Mall Sign by the Mall Enterance that lists the stores in the mall.

[DizzyEdge]

Hey guys, new to the Atlantic Provinces and Saint John thread. I was born in NB (Fred) and decided to acquaint myself with some family tree work others had done over the past few years, and realized that although my great great grandfather came over from Ireland, every other ancestor of mine has been in NB for ages, back to the 1700s even, which sparked new interest in NB for me.

Anyway, after some random evenings of Google and Bing map exploration, it was VERY quickly apparently that the main city which interested me in NB was Saint John. The final determining factor was when someone commented on a video of Saint John that they were moving to Moncton because Saint John only had "one walmart and only two chinese food buffets", which basically clinched that I'd like Saint John better than Moncton I'm big into urban living and heritage (co-founded a historic society in Calgary), so the gritty seattle-like downtown of Saint John is really appealing. The cruise tourist trades sounds like it could really turn the historic UPTOWN into a real destination (perhaps it is already).

I decided to read the past years worth of posts in this thread and just finished it, so I have some questions and comments, some about new developments, and some about very old ones.

First old stuff:

Queen's Square, a long time ago

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1900s-Queen-...ht_3145wt_1602

Can anyone tell me what the tall roof (or perhaps clock tower) is or was which is just right of centre?

Also, can anyone tell me what happened to the sandstone building which is at the far left of the photo and when? I see its right wall still exists with the bare stone edge exposed as some sort of phantom reminder:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Secon...,29.12,,0,-4.7

Can anyone tell me when and what happened to the Union Station


http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Union-Station...ht_1175wt_1396

And the Customs House?


http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...story-18671914

Onto more recent happenings to historic sites:

Did the St. Vincent's Convent/Chapel ever get torn town?
http://binged.it/LKNDhS
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=St.+V...8.43,,0,-10.67

Seems like an absolute travesty.

What about the Paramount?

I was going to ask where the Lantic Sugar refinery site was, but I just found this:



is the land marked DND still DND owned? (and used?)
http://urbanplans.blogspot.ca/2008/0...in-sea-of.html


Also someone mentioned the 'clearing of Main', what part of Main st was cleared (Lansdowne to Station?)

A real shame about the Lyric Theatre.

[DizzyEdge]

Onto newer things:


cdnguys photo

The copper on your new courts building is sick (in the good way)

Why do you call it the fortress of vengeance?


helladog photo

The use of stone on the harbourfront building is also sick (in the good way). If this was built in Calgary I'm sure it would be clad some crappy stucco


http://urbanplans.blogspot.ca/2011/1...-terminal.html

The new cruise terminal is sick (ok, in the bad way).
I guess it's not so bad, but as part of my years of dealings with trying to save historic buildings, I've come to the conclusion that in the most part mimicry is bad, as it will tend to be a Disney-esque facsimile which gives the lay person some sense of 'old' but architecturally will be a real mess. Better to give the travelers of 100 years from now a taste of the best architecture we have to offer in this generation, rather than lazy copies of something 100 years before us, which almost never measure up to the real thing.

I suppose the phrase "It could be worse" applies here. It reminds of this building in Calgary which replaced an actual old building, again a strange mix of fake old styles, and also with a weird green capped tower!: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=calga...7.97,,0,-11.85

The Coast Guard site looks to have huge potential. Last I read there were 4 finalists, has that changed? Also, if this is an ex coast guard site, where is the coast guard now?

[DizzyEdge]

Lastly just a few more general questions about Saint John:

What is the nightlife like? And let me clarify, by nightlife I'm not so much talking "clubs", but more pubs, lounges, places to have a glass of wine or a pub of craft beer late on a weekend night, or dare I say... weekday night.

Is uptown the only real place to be, or are there other pockets of retail which have enough critical mass to be a destination, any other 'high streets', even if only a block or two?

There was a rendering of a development at Germain and Ross:


http://theacre.ca/theprojects/300-germain/

Could anyone estimate how much a project like that would cost to build? (ignoring land aquisition costs).

Also are there any special rules one must adhere to to build in the 'Trinity Royal' area?

Ok, I'm spent.

[JHikka]

Union Station was torn down a few decades ago to make way for the Main Street viaduct. It was either that or the Red Rose Tea building. There are a lot of absolute travesties when it comes to buildings that used to exist that were torn down over the years.

[Ire Narissis]

I will try to answer as many of these as I can! I'm not as deeply in touch with the goings-on as some of the other folks are so hopefully they can fill in the blanks.

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Can anyone tell me when and what happened to the Union Station

And the Customs House?

What about the Paramount?

is the land marked DND still DND owned? (and used?)

A real shame about the Lyric Theatre.

I'm not sure offhand when exactly the Union Station was torn down, but the site is now the home of Harbour Station, our big hockey arena and event centre.

I'm not familiar with that customs house at first glance, but if it's where I'm guessing it was, then this is all that's left of it.

There was an effort put on recently to purchase and restore the Paramount, but it fell short of the necessary funding and fizzled. Presently its fate is still in limbo. Speculation is that the owner of the property is actively trying not to sell it. Go figure.

The DND land you mentioned is the site of the Barrack Green Armoury. Still very much DND owned and used: it's a training site and parade square for reservists, stores a couple of small artillery guns, and also hosts an Air Cadet squadron and an Army Cadet corps, among other things.

It is absolutely a shame about the Lyric Theatre.

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Why do you call it the fortress of vengeance?

The Coast Guard site looks to have huge potential. Last I read there were 4 finalists, has that changed? Also, if this is an ex coast guard site, where is the coast guard now?

I don't recall who first coined the term Fortress of Vengeance, but I think that came about because of its intimidating, looming concrete design from early concept drawings.

There are four finalists for the Coast Guard site. One of the four is apparently a forerunner and that's the developer that is being courted most earnestly at the moment. The Coast Guard keeps a little rescue boat at the HMCS Brunswicker now; beyond that I'm not sure. There are certainly a lot of buoys and other marine hardware on the site that'll have to go somewhere.

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

What is the nightlife like? And let me clarify, by nightlife I'm not so much talking "clubs", but more pubs, lounges, places to have a glass of wine or a pub of craft beer late on a weekend night, or dare I say... weekday night.

Is uptown the only real place to be, or are there other pockets of retail which have enough critical mass to be a destination, any other 'high streets', even if only a block or two?

Also are there any special rules one must adhere to to build in the 'Trinity Royal' area?

Saint John's nightlife has made a pretty powerful resurgence in the last decade or so. There are actually very few "clubs", as you say. There are some lounges--not a whole lot, but not too few either. Pubs are the flavour of the month which I suppose makes sense for a city that touts its Irish heritage so much. Not all of them offer their own in-house craft beers (though some of them definitely do), but there are a slew of maritime-made micro-brews that most of them carry. Weekday nights are not out of the question, though 'late' could be. Depends how late.

The uptown is the only really dense and atmospheric destination, but there are other places. Rothesay Avenue is still around, it's pretty much all big-ticket retail like car dealerships, furniture, home & garden, that sort of thing, but there are a few other little stores here and there. The East Side as a whole, with McAllister Place as an anchor, has exploded into one of those big shopping power centres, with a lot of box stores and outdoor strip malls. We have a Costco in that area now which is helping to drive development even further. Essentially, what we have now is a polarized shopping experience: For box stores and brand name shops, East Side. For small specialty stores and fine restaurants, Uptown.

There is also a burgeoning West Side shopping district that is starting to come into its own. Lancaster Mall underwent an extensive renovation in the past few years (as did McAllister Place out east), and the Lancaster Mall Zellers has just closed and will re-open as a Wal-Mart. There are some new box stores, and a second Kent Building Supplies and a Princess Auto will both be built on the West Side in the near future.

Other than that, there are a couple of little local pockets of commercial activity and of course each major suburb has its own little commercial strip... though I'll admit the one in my hometown of Grand Bay-Westfield is a bit lacking.

As for rules to adhere to in the Trinity Royal area... for builders and homeowners, yes, there are rules surrounding construction and renovation in order to preserve the 'heritage' appearance. For the average person, no.

[DizzyEdge]

Thanks for the awesome info guys.

As for asking about uptown, I was more wondering if there were any other pedestrian orientated high streets; that said uptown is pretty big so if that is it then that's not so bad

I did find a blog that shows that Main used to be another retail hub


http://thelostvalley.blogspot.ca/
vs


Bing maps

another comparison here:

http://thelostvalley.blogspot.ca/201...-and-most.html

Brutal.

[cdnguys]

The question about clock tower - that building still exists, however the top piece that you inquire about was removed. I don't think it was a clock but maybe a widow's watch. it's a large haunted looking house on a hill divided into apartments on Mecklenburg street

[cdnguys]

Actually pretty much everything you see in that picture of Queen Sq exists today with the exception of the large building on the left I believe that was the lieutenant governor's house and it burnt down

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Actually pretty much everything you see in that picture of Queen Sq exists today with the exception of the large building on the left I believe that was the lieutenant governor's house and it burnt down

Thanks for the tip about the widows watch, and yes, it did appear that everything else was still standing around Queen Square.

Do you know if anyone ever proposed to build something where it stood, if the planning dept would demand something which looked "old" ?

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Thanks for the tip about the widows watch, and yes, it did appear that everything else was still standing around Queen Square.

Do you know if anyone ever proposed to build something where it stood, if the planning dept would demand something which looked "old" ?

It's Part of the Trinity Royal Heritage Preservation area so anything planned needs to go through a heritage committee in addition to regular planning and advisory committee. For guidance what would probably be expected, see Abbey Saint Andrew building on corner of Duke and Charlotte. The height needs to be between 80 and 120% of block average height. Wooden windows only in heritage is my understanding. I don't recall it ever being up for development - its currently parking lot.

If have money to invest the are lots of heritage buildings you can gentrify and there are grants available if in preservation area.

[cdnguys]

You may also wish to know that the church in the top middle of your first photo is endangered. It's called Gothic Arches and he owner is sounding alarm bell that he will have to tear it down due to maintenance costs. He is trying to find a buyer to turn it into condos.

[cdnguys]

If you are on facebook, check out the group Old Pictures of Saint John
It's a treasure trove

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

You may also wish to know that the church in the top middle of your first photo is endangered. It's called Gothic Arches and he owner is sounding alarm bell that he will have to tear it down due to maintenance costs. He is trying to find a buyer to turn it into condos.

Gotta love demolition by neglect..

Thanks for the Abbey Saint Andrew link. I do have mixed thoughts about that sort of development. I guess it all depends if an aim is to freeze in time the architectural era of an area, or whether restricting it to only comparable quality development is the better route. One problem with a proliferation of new buildings which mimic old ones, is it can start to weaken the desire to preserve when you can just make a copy without the problems of the original, so it can eventually backfire. Of course Trinity Royal isn't the whole city, so there's lots of opportunity to create high quality contemporary outside of that zone, particularly on vacant lots, although I understand with a number of historic buildings at risk restoration to prevent loss might be preferable to new infill.

Still very interested in building/construction costs in Saint John.

[DizzyEdge]

One thing I've noticed checking out the maps is the lack of connectivity of the Lower West Side to the Uptown peninsula via anything but car, so that a drive is maybe 6 mins from one to the other, but a walk over 1h 15 mins. Obviously a large amount of water in between the two is a pretty effective barrier. Has there ever been any talk of a water taxi or anything, or is there just not the population in the LWS to warrant it? Also walking from Uptown to the North side/Indian town seems like it wouldn't be pleasant being that most of the area around Main was cleared.


Also, is there any online source of stats by ward or neighbourhood? (such as population, average income, etc).

[cdnguys]

You could check out www.saintjohn.ca for ward info.
There was a ferry decades ago between west side and Princess Street uptown. There was talk of a water taxi from a developer who wanted to build 3 high rises on west side from his development to uptown. Development never happened. The west side has very good bus service over the harbor bridge. Also one could walk harbour passage walking trail starting at mid Chesley Drive. Walking to Indiantown is OK - I personally wouldn't walk in or to Indiantown unless I was looking to be beat up our shot in the ass. The north end is the most challenging "priority neighborhood" in the city.

[DizzyEdge]

Thanks for all the info cdnguys, I realize I have tossed a large volume of questions out there in a very short period of time, it's much appreciated.


P.S. Free wi-fi on your buses + GPS "next bus" service, beats Calgary's!