HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Hamilton > Urban, Urban Design & Heritage Issues


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:32 PM
beanmedic's Avatar
beanmedic beanmedic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt602 View Post
Too small? Are you serious? The rendering makes that thing look enormous.

Umm...yes I am serious. According to Wikipedia, capacity is 15,000. Ivor Wynne usually sells out around 30,000.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2008, 12:04 AM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC83 View Post
^^ I definately think the waterfront Stadium is the #1 choice, and what a great choice it is.

I was down at the site last week, and this neighbourhood is perfect for a stadium! Not too many houses to annoy residents, empty lots to add parking garages, and of course the fact that it would have waterfront AND downtown views!
The Pier 8 site just east of the Parks Canada Discovery Centre might work if you displaced the current tenants (maybe to the eventually-to-be-constructed Randle Reef Pier). That would be much better than points west -- I'd hate to see harbourfront green space eaten up by a stadium. But I'm not sure about nobody complaining -- stadium noise will easily carry across the bay to North Shore Boulevard etc. Ron Joyce has a property along that stretch of Burlington and might be a bellwether for neighbourhood mood.

When there was talk of constructing a new stadium, sentiment in some camps seemed to be that they wanted to upsize to a multi-purpose, multi-tenant venue in the 40K capacity range. Or am I remembering that wrong?
__________________
"Where architectural imagination is absent, the case is hopeless." - Louis Sullivan
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2008, 8:00 AM
the dude the dude is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,812
there doesn't seem to be a perfect location for this stadium. also, it's true what steeltown said - the expenditure is rather huge so other tenants will have to be sought-out. perhaps at some point an mls team could move in. if i'm not mistaken, rugby canada is looking for a home. that wouldn't amount to much activity, though - just the occasional match. really, my preference was to have a facility that was shared my mac and the ti-cats but that ship has sailed.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2008, 11:15 AM
SteelTown's Avatar
SteelTown SteelTown is offline
It's Hammer Time
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 19,872
MPs join Pan Am bid effort
Attempt to bring 2015 games to southern Ontario needs federal backing

June 10, 2008
John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator

Local MPs are getting their games faces on.

Hamilton-area members of Parliament promise to lead multi-pronged lobbying for Ottawa to join the province and Golden Horseshoe cities in a bid for the 2015 Pan American Games.

This follows Ontario's Pan Am secretariat sending its business case for the games to the federal government.

It asks the feds to match a 35 per cent commitment to the $1.77-billion sports showcase.

With the ball now in the court of the federal government, MPs are prepared to put on the pressure.

"We need to create a political climate in which the federal government can't say no," said Hamilton Centre MP David Christopherson.

"The fact the province stepped up to the plate so quickly is significant," the NDP member stressed.

Christopherson noted Canada's history in hosting the Pan Am Games twice and the obvious need for sports facilities in southern Ontario make a compelling case for Ottawa to join the bid.

Hamilton's wish list for Games participation includes a 30,000-seat stadium, improvements to Copps Coliseum and additions to expanded sports facilities at McMaster University.

Burlington MP Mike Wallace said MPs in southern Ontario have already established a positive climate for the Games.

"We've discussed this at GTA meetings of MPs and I don't recall anything negative, only positive," the Tory member said.

Meantime, David Sweet says the wide footprint for the proposed Games, from Niagara to Oshawa, is a compelling argument.

The Conservative member for Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Westdale also noted the Pan Am initiative appears to have formidable backing from the private sector, led by businessman David Braley.

"If it passes the litmus test in terms of the finances, I'll put everything I can into helping bring the games to southern Ontario," Sweet said.

Hamilton Mountain MP Chris Charlton said the Games bid is the kind of issue that MPs of all political stripes can support.

"It's not unusual for us in the Hamilton area to speak with one voice when it's something important for Hamilton."

She described this issue as a no-brainer because of the construction jobs that would be created if Hamilton was assigned a new stadium in the games budget.

Fellow NDP member Wayne Marston is also a bid backer.

"As sports critic for my party, I'm in a unique position and I fully support games that would bring jobs and people to Hamilton," said the MP for Hamilton East-Stoney Creek.

As well as local politicians, the Canadian Olympic Committee and many sports federations are quietly pressing the case in Ottawa.

They are stressing that Canada's most populous region has fallen dramatically behind other provinces in sports and recreation infrastructure.

"I find this works best, working in the background to make the case," said Chris Rudge, CEO of the COC.

He said the COC needs an answer about federal funding by mid-September so it can make a preliminary presentation to the games governing body, the Pan American Sports Organization, in October.

"It would be silly to show up there without a firm commitment on funding," Rudge noted.

David Adames, the Tourism Hamilton official who is monitoring the bid initiative for Hamilton, said the financial backing is vital before any more steps can be taken.

He explained that new facilities have not been assigned to cities in the Golden Horseshoe under a projected budget.

The province's bid secretariat has taken note of existing facilities that can be used, and created a budget based on the new facilities needed.

But where they will go won't be thrashed out before the federal government steps up with support.

Adames said the value to Hamilton if it gets a new stadium, upgrades to Copps and additions to Mac's facilities, could be more than $250 million -- depending on private-enterprise partnerships at a stadium site.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2008, 11:31 AM
SteelTown's Avatar
SteelTown SteelTown is offline
It's Hammer Time
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 19,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by the dude View Post
there doesn't seem to be a perfect location for this stadium. also, it's true what steeltown said - the expenditure is rather huge so other tenants will have to be sought-out. perhaps at some point an mls team could move in. if i'm not mistaken, rugby canada is looking for a home. that wouldn't amount to much activity, though - just the occasional match. really, my preference was to have a facility that was shared my mac and the ti-cats but that ship has sailed.
The last serious stadium discussions was during the 2010 Commonwealth Games bid which was to include the Canadian Football Hall of Fame with the stadium by the waterfront. The Canadian Sports Hall of Fame is looking for a new home so perhaps Hamilton could include that with the bid.

Personally I feel that placing a stadium in the downtown area would be a waste of land for something else. The stadium should stay close to the waterfront, next to the train tracks.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2008, 1:40 PM
DC83 DC83 is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,430
Quote:
Originally Posted by thistleclub View Post
The Pier 8 site just east of the Parks Canada Discovery Centre might work if you displaced the current tenants (maybe to the eventually-to-be-constructed Randle Reef Pier). That would be much better than points west -- I'd hate to see harbourfront green space eaten up by a stadium. But I'm not sure about nobody complaining -- stadium noise will easily carry across the bay to North Shore Boulevard etc. Ron Joyce has a property along that stretch of Burlington and might be a bellwether for neighbourhood mood.

When there was talk of constructing a new stadium, sentiment in some camps seemed to be that they wanted to upsize to a multi-purpose, multi-tenant venue in the 40K capacity range. Or am I remembering that wrong?
Well there's nothing green about this land... it's more 'brown' than anything
Take a look

Serious... take a walk down here. You'll realize how awesome/perfect a location this is for a stadium. SOME people were talking Upper Stoney Creek last time around, which is rediculous.

Another thing: If they're going to make the stadium 'multi-use', I really hope they don't mean adding a Track around the inner-perimetre of the field. That would totally kill the experience. The reason Ivor Wynn is the best CFL Stadium to watch football is b/c the fans are right in the game (literally).
'Multi-Use' should be what Steeltown suggests; Resto/Bar/Sports HoF/Football & Soccer Venue/Concert Venue... NO TRACK PLS!!!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2008, 10:31 PM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC83 View Post
Well there's nothing green about this land... it's more 'brown' than anything
Take a look

Serious... take a walk down here. You'll realize how awesome/perfect a location this is for a stadium. SOME people were talking Upper Stoney Creek last time around, which is rediculous.

Another thing: If they're going to make the stadium 'multi-use', I really hope they don't mean adding a Track around the inner perimeter of the field. That would totally kill the experience. The reason Ivor Wynne is the best CFL Stadium to watch football is b/c the fans are right in the game (literally).
'Multi-Use' should be what Steeltown suggests; Resto/Bar/Sports HoF/Football & Soccer Venue/Concert Venue... NO TRACK PLS!!!
My bad. Was reading waterfront in the sense of "on the water." There are merits to that location, one negative is that the site lacks the regular high-volume main-artery visibility that makes naming rights lucrative. But then as has been said, there's no idea location.

I think multi-tenant means concert venue as well as a soccer team, hopefully one with less off-pitch drama than the Thunder.
__________________
"Where architectural imagination is absent, the case is hopeless." - Louis Sullivan
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 2:37 AM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,728
Took another look. Visibility I think might stiill be a hang-up (one of the big selling points of Bratina's proposed York/Cannon/Bay site), but a concession would involve altering the streetscape down to play up the stadium. Here's how I could see that working: End Hess North at Barton and Stuart at Caroline, then site the stadium with its length parallel to Barton, making it visible from both Queen and Hess -- you can currently stand in the Village and see the water, so you should be able to make out the facility and possibly its logo, helping you navigate to events. And about that logo... Citi wants to be a player at YHM, maybe we can convince them to ante up for the naming rights. They have a simple, inoffensive logo, which is a big bonus, and it sounds pretty okay. New York has Citi Field, but Hamilton could still have Citi Stadium. (Or AIC Stadium, if we're feeling some local love.)
__________________
"Where architectural imagination is absent, the case is hopeless." - Louis Sullivan
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 3:01 AM
DC83 DC83 is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,430
I found this link to another commonwealth games bid?

http://hamilton2018.tripod.com/Hamilton2018/bid.pdf

*found this pic in that report


Last edited by DC83; Jun 11, 2008 at 3:04 AM. Reason: added photo
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 3:18 AM
SteelTown's Avatar
SteelTown SteelTown is offline
It's Hammer Time
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 19,872
Like the report?! lol cause I made it a few years back. Had a fake bid on another forum and I submitted that and won the competition haha.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 11:38 AM
DC83 DC83 is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,430
AAAAHAHAHAHA I knew it was a lil amateur. I was like, "I hope this isn't a real bid?? (since I had never heard of going for 2018).
Great stuff tho, Steeltown!

Do you have any of those pix of what the area would look like w/ a stadium? I believe they had those renders at some point.

Spec's poll today:
Should Hamilton be chosen to host the Pan-Am Games, where should the stadium be located?
(as of 7:37am)
Harbour (47.69 %)
East Mountain (26.39 %)
Confederation Park (25.93 %)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 12:37 PM
SteelTown's Avatar
SteelTown SteelTown is offline
It's Hammer Time
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 19,872
I have those renderings somewhere, including one with the aquatic centre and the stadium together at the waterfront. I'll try and find it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 12:56 PM
SteelTown's Avatar
SteelTown SteelTown is offline
It's Hammer Time
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 19,872
Aquatic Centre to the right, track and field in the middle and the stadium to the left. Track and field won't be in the stadium. Under the bid it did mention that once the Games is over the field could be taken away and replaced with surface parking lot.


Commonwealth Sport Park, with a price tag of $215 million, would be located on Hamilton’s waterfront, reclaiming past industrial lands. Commonwealth Stadium would be the city’s new stadium, seating 50,000.




Commonwealth Square was planned for the space where Ivor Wynne Stadium now stands. It would have been used for indoor sports and track.


Harbour Centre complex at Eastwood Park would have cost $46 million and seat 6,000.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 2:22 PM
DC83 DC83 is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,430
^^ Thanks, Steeltown! Those are the ones.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2008, 2:57 PM
SteelTown's Avatar
SteelTown SteelTown is offline
It's Hammer Time
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 19,872
With Rheem closed, or closing (not sure if the factory has closed yet), it makes it a lot easier to place a stadium by the waterfront.

That section is really contaminated though, it'll require a lot of work, especially along the area of Hess St North, believe it's one of the most contaminated spots in Hamilton.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 5:46 AM
the dude the dude is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,812
what would the harbour centre complex have been used for?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 8:56 PM
Beltliner's Avatar
Beltliner Beltliner is offline
Unsafe at Any Speed
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 949
Here's hoping you folks do land the Pan Am Games in 2015 and have a chance to build a new stadium that would work both for the games and for the TiCats--there's no disputing the intimacy of Ivor Wynne, but it has indeed done its bit for king and country. Couple of thoughts came to mind when I saw some of the renderings on this thread:
  • You're probably going to want a base 30,000-seater, scaleable to 50,000 for Grey Cups, the Pan Am Games themselves, and the like.
  • End-zone seats are a tough sale in CFL markets, all the more so when you're dealing with a running track. Just ask anyone watching a game at Commonwealth Stadium.

If you wanted to use McMahon Stadium as a referent, the core stands dating back to 1960 run between the goal lines on each side of the field, and each 43-row original grandstand seats about 10,000 fans. (Yeah, yeah, I know--there have been a lot of incremental add-ons since, but never mind that now. ) Using a base capacity of 30,000 as a rough carpentry guideline, you're probably going to want two decks on each side of the field of about 30 rows per deck to give you (7,500 per deck x 2 decks per side x 2 sides = ) your base of 30,000 seats.

The catch is that for the Pan Am Games, there's that annoying question of the track, each side of which is going to cost you about 10 yards in distance from the sideline. Amazingly, I have a solution to that problem: Take a cue from Turner Field in Atlanta and short the lower decks. Twelve rows of seating on each lower deck will cost you (7,500 per lower deck x (12/30) x 2 lower decks = ) about 6,000 seats during the Pan Am Games, for a net of 24,000 seats. Temporary bleacher technology is sufficiently advanced in this country to accommodate the 26,000 or so curious spectators who won't mind seeing the Pan Am Games from the end zones--and once those cheap seats come down, it becomes a relatively simple matter to demolish the track and build out the remaining 12 rows of the main grandstands to CFL field level to bring your new playpen back up to 30,000. If you keep the end-zone footings once the bleachers come down, scaling the place back up to a 50,000-seat Grey Cup venue should be a doddle.
__________________
Now waste even more time! @Beltliner403 on Twitter!

Always pleased to serve my growing clientele.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2008, 11:25 PM
DC83 DC83 is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,430
^^ Hey! Great alternative. Or maybe seats that retract? Who knows. There are some fancy engineers in today's world.

The End Zones in that render are actually temp seats. Only for games set up. The actual stadium is a 30,000 seater.

I think this stadium is the best option, esp since there's no track haha

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2008, 2:38 PM
SteelTown's Avatar
SteelTown SteelTown is offline
It's Hammer Time
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 19,872
Deciding where to sit
New stadiums are costly and controversial and don't always deliver on their promise. Is there a way for Hamilton to get it right?

June 14, 2008
John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator

With Hamilton edging toward a role in another Games bid, the subject is once again stadiums, a topic on which almost no one is neutral.

A 30,000-seat facility would be the jewel in the 2015 Pan-American Games crown for Steeltown.

But wrongly designed or located, it could also be a flawed gem.

Still, sports fans love the notion of new stadia with better seats, superior sight lines, better-equipped washrooms and shorter food lineups.

And owners of pro sports franchises adore leveraging that fan passion to get public money to build new homes for their teams.

Taxpayers, meantime, are rightly skeptical.

Historically, stadiums are hugely costly, do not contribute all that much to the economy outside of initial construction jobs, can be very disruptive to communities and are not very accessible to ongoing public use.

But recent stadia development within multi-sport or special events have found ways to optimize daily use, assure public access and spur urban regeneration.

Those are some of the priorities Hamilton's point man in the Pan-Ams initiative has identified.

Tourism Hamilton director David Adames is preparing to revisit sites suggested in the past, plus is assembling ideas for what would go into a new Hamilton stadium.

So let the debate begin with Hamilton facing a decision to replace badly fading Ivor Wynne Stadium one way or the other.

How much would it cost, where would it be located, how would it look and who would it serve?

It's all speculative at this point, but some sense of the pros and cons and issues that might arise is possible based on past bids for the Commonwealth Games and trends elsewhere in stadium development and architecture.

What would a stadium in the $150- to $200-million range cost Joe Hamilton Taxpayer?

With the province and federal government each picking up 35 per cent of the price in a Pan-Am scenario, that's $105 to $140 million taken care of by other levels of government.

That leaves $45 to $60 million on the backs of Hamilton ratepayers. But it does not take into account the possibility of other Games funding from major sponsors, local private-public partnerships, perhaps some money from the main beneficiaries, the Tiger-Cats, and revenue from naming rights and long-term signage deals.

Nor does it consider the possibilities of cost overruns, and they do happen.

But the choice is a stark one if you think the Ticats are important to the city.

Outside of a Games scenario, Hamilton faces either a hugely expensive upgrade of Ivor Wynne or taking on that $150 to $200 million alone.

As most civic politicians point out, it's a no-brainer when you get $2.50 back from other government levels for every dollar you put up.

Under the 2010 Commonwealth Games bid, the proposed budgeting was even better, each buck put up bringing four back based on substantial private-sector funding.

Even so, a new stadium for Hamilton would need to do more than house the Tiger-Cats, host Games track and field and possibly opening and closing ceremonies.

It might have to build-in facilities like the City of Manchester Stadium did to maximize use after the 2002 Commonwealth Games.

It included conference and exhibition space as well as banquet and dining facilities for weddings.

Moreover, it offers six kinds of VIP or executive suites at home games of Manchester City soccer club.

More significantly, the stadium was part of an ambitious Sport City concept designed to lift impoverished East Manchester.

Meantime in Zurich, newly-minted Letzigrund Stadium was fast-forwarded for the current Euro 2008 tournament but also stages several track meets and pop concerts, serves a gymnastics club and youth basketball and also offers an array of VIP suites, a restaurant and meeting rooms.

It is open daily, what's more, for free to people wanting to use the track or picnic in the stands.

Adames mentions the possibility of the Canadian Football Hall of Fame and national sports organizations being candidates to relocate in a new stadium here.

But a stadium is more than bricks and mortar and glass or fun and games.

As NDP MP Wayne Marston points out, a stadium projects a city's profile.

"I think of all those gorgeous overhead TV shots of Hamilton in 2003 during the world cycling championships," the member for Hamilton East-Stoney Creek said.

He argued a properly-sited stadium would show sailboats on a blue bay and the verdant hump of the Niagara escarpment bisecting the city.

Right now when national broadcasters pan camera lenses from Ivor Wynne, you see smokestacks and belches of fire.

Even if all the stars align on the Games bid with formal approval by the governing Pan-Am body next year, city councillor Brad Clark sees challenges.

"It's a very tight time frame and you want to make sure you do it right."

He cautions that he'd need to see a strong business case for the Games before getting to the particulars of a stadium.

On that front, he said the prime focus is costs, especially long-term operational costs, traffic and other disruption, environmental concerns, not to mention a stadium design and location that projects a new image for Hamilton.

"It's no slam dunk."

Have your say on where a new stadium should go and whether the city can afford it. Go to Rick's Picks blog at thespec.com. to see what others have said and add your comments. Cast your vote on where it should go in our poll. Where do you sit?

Will it be the waterfront or Mountain?

Several stadium sites have been identified in previous Games bids and will be revisited within a 2015 Pan-Am Games bid scenario.

They include a waterfront/downtown location at Barton and Tiffany Streets, east-end sites at Confederation Park and at the Lafarge National Slag depot, plus an east Mountain option.

Airport area sites have been mentioned, too.

The waterfront and other sites represent wholly different approaches.

Here are pros and cons of the two scenarios.

* * *

Waterfront/downtown (Bay and Tiffany streets)

* UPSIDE: could be an important regeneration project, would form an important link between downtown and waterfront, provide local employment and recreation opportunities, present a bowllike setting for striking architecture with vistas of lake.

* DOWNSIDE: means relocation of residents and businesses, likely requires remedial environmental work, close to CN Rail yards, poses parking and traffic problems.

* * *

Lafarge National Slag on Windemere Road

* UPSIDE: close to major highways, meaning good access from all directions, opportunity for facility to make a statement about Hamilton to thousands streaming by on QEW, also provides lake views

* DOWNSIDE: relocation of current owner, no real regeneration effect, unattractive setting and no economic benefit to city core.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 12:34 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,054
haha...if people don't like the shots of the city from Ivor Wynne, just wait and see the beautiful views from a stadium at Lafarge Slag on Burlington St! lol. what a joke.
Actually, in my mind the only real options are Barton/Tiffany, CN Yard or Bratina's idea across from Copps.
If they build this on the Mountain I might barf....which if fine, because I'll have the worlds largest parking lot to barf on.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Hamilton > Urban, Urban Design & Heritage Issues
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:33 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.