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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 10:51 PM
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Mass transit brings in more in economic efficiency than it costs.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 11:04 PM
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Mass transit brings in more in economic efficiency than it costs.
How so?

It's hard to really make that case, especially when the average transit commute is longer than the average car commute so it certainly isn't saving time.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 2:59 AM
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Obviously areas based around cars have a maximum density limit that is much less than what transit allows. The fundamental question is so what? The US is a very sparsely populated country and there's plenty of room to grow. Sure, some cities like NYC and San Francisco have physical constraints which require increased density, but others like Houston and Atlanta do not. LA is a good example of a sort of middle ground where there was tons of land to expand, but now it's expanded so much it finally has reached physical barriers like the mountains and desert and needs to start building up. I simply see no reason why cities that have no such constraints should ever need to be more dense than what cars allow. That's not saying they need to be any LOWER than what cars allow (which is often the case in sparse suburbs). Plus, quite frankly here in the US our ability to built infrastructure is so poor that I really seriously question whether we can economically build past the upper density limit for cars because the new transit lines we build are so ridiculously expensive that it becomes pretty hard to justify them. It's not at all unusual to spend over $100,000 per rider these days in capital costs. That's a HUGE subsidy to encourage density.
It really does matter. Here are some of the reasons why. Going back to the purpose of modern suburban form. It is designed to be anti urban. That is further reinforced by restrictive zoning laws. That combination is then really resilient to change. That in itself isn't necessarily bad. Where it becomes bad is when it is extremely widespread if not a complete monopoly on what is allowed to be built. Choice and variability are then highly constrained if not outright not allowed to happen. It becomes an entrenched selfishness that when widespread has significant negative impacts.

So lets go back to the LA metro. Not to pick on LA but I can include Seattle, Bay Area and Oahu in this example as well. This is from people I know that lived in those areas and moved away. The same common story was getting tired of the long commute. The places they lived were based purely on what they could afford and not that the place itself was overall that desirable. In many cases they were so far removed from what it was from that area that was desirable that it no longer became worth it. It was very common for them to have family in the area. said family lived closer in but they could afford any place even close to said family. When intensification is being artificially not allowed to happen the only option is rapid outward expansion. That can start to put large physical distances from core areas that were the draw in the first place to the far flung areas people can afford to live. The general feeling was that of being forced out. An interesting thing is that a surprising amount, at least to me, had mixed or negative feelings about driving. It was talked about as a necessary evil and burden instead of that of freedom and enjoyment. Most of them I asked if they had the option of such things as denser housing types like that of the missing middle as a compromise to live closer in and afford it roughly half it would be worth it. Mentioning what if that also meant possible better transit or things within walking distance and about a third look favorably on that option. Some even mentioning good experiences they did have with areas in the metro that had better transit and walking experience. Granted that is a limited sample size of people I know. It did impress me as they are not urban transit buffs. What that does show is if built form is allowed to give the option some will take it. Those that do relieve pressure on the outward expansion. It still happens just not as fast. If the metro is allowed to organically grow across the metro the missing middle becomes possible and an option for some. The intensity of suburbs is still allowed and said affordable suburbs are not pushed out as fast. The reduces the pace in which people can be priced out of a metro.

Cars are an expensive luxury. It is highly likely it is the biggest money sink most families have that own or rent a car. If the car isn't a cost burden then it is a nice luxury. If it is a cost burden then it is exactly that a burden. Here is an extreme example but I feel it makes my point. For flying being able to own your own plane must be great. You can fly it where you want and when you want. You don't need to share it with anyone else. You may have the option of flying directly to your destination and not need to make a mid way stop or transfer. It is very much a luxury. A luxury that has a high cost. Owning and maintaining that plane isn't going to no cheap. Planes like cars also loose value as well depreciation also very well factors into cost of ownership. Now compare that to flying with an airline. You have to share the ride with others. Your only options are when and where the airline flies. It may not go direct and you may need to make transfers. The cost is far less than owning your own plane for various reasons. Now imagine if flying greatly favored small privately owned places over shared airliners. Sure you could take the airline but it has infrequent service. The small plains have priority over them so delays happen. The small plane airports get more of funding so the big airliners struggle to stay in good shape. The big airliners are not allowed to go many places. Everything is so spread out that even if they could it wouldn't be worth it. So the only people that fly on the airliner of those that can't afford to own a plane themselves. It is so bad off for the airliners that people force themselves into getting old poor quality planes with lots of maintenance and other issues. It is very costly to them and eats up a lot of money. The airliner ride fits the budget they have but limits where they can go and live within reason. That folks is how many people I know that don't have a lot of money are with cars compared to transit. Reach one is the best is based on the built form in which they support. Forcing the poor or even middle class to own private planes to fly seems like a crazy idea. It is and forcing them to own cars compared to public transit is the same. I have sat down with many people and gone over the total cost of ownership for the car they own or lease and jaws drop every time. They understand each of the costs that are part of it but don't believe at first when it is added up. Car ownership for the poor is very much a burden. For the middle class it can still be a drag as well. Shared transportation is most efficient and cost effective than personal/private transportation.

So lets get to the other big sticking point. Transit is subsidized. Yes it is but cars are too. Like the total cost of ownership of the car the ways cars are subsidized is by a bunch of things. Add them all up and it isn't a small amount. The reality is a great many things are subsidized so I don't see how that in itself is an overly bad thing. If the overall outcome is positive then it is worth it. Worth it doesn't always need to mean monetary either.

I completely agree with you that major construction is far too expensive. That also means maintenance dollars don't go far either. Even worse when maintenance is neglected. Is just cost more when it does get done. Trouble is that doesn't just impact transit or areas of high intensity. It impacts infrastructure every where. The longer that goes on the worse off we are no matter what the built form is. Initial costs when something is new may seem like a lot. The real killer is when that infrastructure is old and needs to be replaced. Even worse if it wasn't maintained well and needs to be replaced early. That is when the over priced costs of infrastructure start to kill in this country. If the built form doesn't support paying for that infrastructure even worse. Then the nightmare of the built form not supporting the infrastructure day one. By that point it is too late. It is bankruptcy and or a dying city. Point is the costs need to be brought under control. Also we need to be in a way that is sustainable and takes the good of the whole into its design.

The end goal should be to neither forced density or stop it from happening. The goal is to have a frame work that works at all levels of density and allowed to organically happen. Notice a common thing you see if in images talking about the missing middle of the images showing how California could add more housing. They show the built form as a traditional interconnect grid and in which it can organically grow or change. Low density suburbs with cars and all are still possible and exist. If zoning also allows for organic change in intensity or even use then you meet the needs of society as a whole. I want people to be able to have a single family detached house with a car if they want. It would be great if they had that option to do so affordably without having to live a vast distance out. People could have a viable choice on owning a car of not. Housing choices become huge.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 3:07 AM
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Don't see it happening here in the Kansas City area. I've seen older parts of suburban cities densify, such as Overland Park, near their older downtown area, but you still can't really do much more with it. People around here love their cars too much!!
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 3:07 AM
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Guys please. This thread is about whether or not retrofits are possible. If you want to debate the pros/cons of urbanism/transit, please create a separate thread.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 5:46 AM
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Suburbs have a lifecycle just like city neighborhoods before them. They get built and everything is great, but eventually the buildings age and become undesirable, and the wealthiest households move on to greener pastures. Wholesale redevelopment of areas can only happen in the wake of that disinvestment.

Normally disinvestment happens naturally as buildings depreciate, but the legal structures underpinning suburbia (zoning, building codes, HOA bylaws, etc) are explicitly designed to slow those cycles in the hope that mandating a middle-class aesthetic of homes and lawns will somehow magically replace poor families with middle-class ones. The very adaptations that would allow these neighborhoods to gradually get more urban are the ones that are banned. Can't open a business in a residential zone. Can't turn your garage into a rental apartment for extra income. Can't do anything but grass in your front setback, and god help you if you forget to mow. Buildings are explicitly forbidden to adapt over time.

Inner ring suburbs are stuck for many reasons, but one reason is that their residential neighborhoods are locked in amber, forcing poor families to spend middle-class sums on maintenance while closing off most property-based routes for them to earn income. Further-out suburbs will have even more issues in the future, since they include even newer legal "innovations" in a frantic attempt to preserve people's property values until the end of time.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 7:16 AM
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My neighbourhood is transforming from a typical SFH suburb to a denser "town centre" type area.

I live in an apartment on a street with SFH on one side. They are all being sold for Land Assembly. They are all currently being bought for $4 million each, crazy, one of the neighbours said it was like winning the lottery and gladly sold and moved away. He had lived there 30 - 40 years probably, mortage paid off years ago most likely.

Anyway our whole street is being sold, every block in the area is the same up for sale or sold off already. One side of our street will become highrises, one will be 34 storeys and the other a 17 storey I believe. On the other side of the street 6 houses will become two 8 storey developments with over 200 units. The block behind us is also going to go from SFH to 8 storey development with 176 units. Its just crazy how much development is happenning right now. Two old 3 storey rental apartment buildings on the street that intersects our street are gone now and being replaced by a 28 storey rental and a 39 storey condo building.

This is going on in a very large area though all because of the skytrain expanding. It has always had some walkability. But is undergoing huge change right now. The city created a new neighbourhood plan in anticipation of the skyrain coming and now that the plan is in action its really going crazy.

So in my particular area/suburb it is possible.

one of the streets in 2009 - typicaL SFH from 60s


and the same in 2015 - about 4 large condo apartment buildings


Another street - 2009


and now


heres a quick video, these signs are all over the neighbourhood. There is a render of what will replace the houses shown

Video Link
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 3:59 PM
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^
I want to look on google maps. Can you tell us where this is within Coquitlam? I see the string of 3 SkyTrain stations sort of centered on the mall, but none of them look like they have SFHs, so I'm not sure what to look for.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
Is this statement true?

Assume, for the sake of argument, that the political and economic will to retrofit any given suburban area to become walkably urban does exist. Can it be done, or are there limitations on where?

Obviously some places will be easier than others. Commercial streets in gridded areas are pretty easy, while single-family-home subdivisions on cul-de-sacs are hard. But are the latter impossible?

Discuss.
Of course it is, cities have been built and rebuilt and built over for literally thousands of years.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 5:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Suburbs have a lifecycle just like city neighborhoods before them. They get built and everything is great, but eventually the buildings age and become undesirable, and the wealthiest households move on to greener pastures. Wholesale redevelopment of areas can only happen in the wake of that disinvestment.

Normally disinvestment happens naturally as buildings depreciate, but the legal structures underpinning suburbia (zoning, building codes, HOA bylaws, etc) are explicitly designed to slow those cycles in the hope that mandating a middle-class aesthetic of homes and lawns will somehow magically replace poor families with middle-class ones. The very adaptations that would allow these neighborhoods to gradually get more urban are the ones that are banned. Can't open a business in a residential zone. Can't turn your garage into a rental apartment for extra income. Can't do anything but grass in your front setback, and god help you if you forget to mow. Buildings are explicitly forbidden to adapt over time.

Inner ring suburbs are stuck for many reasons, but one reason is that their residential neighborhoods are locked in amber, forcing poor families to spend middle-class sums on maintenance while closing off most property-based routes for them to earn income. Further-out suburbs will have even more issues in the future, since they include even newer legal "innovations" in a frantic attempt to preserve people's property values until the end of time.
I think HoA's will be forced to evolve as technology and society evolves. If for some chance, car ownership is severely disrupted by ride-sharing, Uber and/or some other yet to be realized concept that renders owning a car obsolete, this would make the concept of garages obsolete as well. What would people do with all that space? Would I be able to convert my two-car garage into living space or knock it down and plant grass and trees in its place.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 7:33 PM
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Of course it is, cities have been built and rebuilt and built over for literally thousands of years.
In other words, just scour this thread:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=170279

All of this change has occurred in the last 100-125 years.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 11:08 PM
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^
I want to look on google maps. Can you tell us where this is within Coquitlam? I see the string of 3 SkyTrain stations sort of centered on the mall, but none of them look like they have SFHs, so I'm not sure what to look for.
The skytrain runs along North Road, the east side of the road is Coquitlam, the west side is Burnaby. AFAIK Burnaby has no plans to change, But all the lowrises along the Coquitlam side are up for sale and some have already been demolished and construction is underway on their replacements, Lougheed Heights is North Road And Foster, three towers replacing multiple low rises, there are townhouses and apartments that replaced SFH along that street. The further east you go along Foster right now all the SFH are under land assembly sales to be replaced by townhouses and apartment buildings. North Road's low rise apartments have all been rezoned to allow for high density towers with retail. This video shows one for sale along North Road.

Coquitlam has a neighbourhood plan and has rezoned the whole area from North Road east to Blue Mountain, making it possible for all the SFH to be replaced by Townhouses or apartments etc. Its called the Burquitlam - Lougheed Plan. Video here

First is 553 Foster Ave, Coquitlam
second one is 715 Bresley street, Coquitlam

Next door working is finishing up on the Simon II which is next door to Simon which is in the after picture. There are a few houses just to the north of Simon II which will be another apartment, I don't think its the same Simon developer.

You can browse around that area and see a lot of changes

check out 580 Clarke Road, Coquitlam where the old Suburban safeway in a parking lot was replaced by a safeway below two high rises.

also 602 Clarke Road is currently a little strip mall with some neighbouring low rise apartments, they are currently applying to redevelop the little strip mall and apartment into a 3 tower highrise development.

also check out: 570 Dansey Avenue, that's my street where those houses will be getting replaced by two 8 storeys

577 Dansey Avenue, the mint green house is currently being demolished it will become a highrise tower and the houses to the right of it are going to be another highrise, and the others are up for land assembly

sorry my laptop is being a pain and I can't figure out the links
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 5:04 PM
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Ooooh I was looking over near Coquitlam Centre, along Pinetree Way. You're talking about down near Lougheed Town Centre. I can see what you're talking about now. Thanks!

Strip malls being replaced by dense mixed use development is very common in and around DC; I could give you a hundred examples at least. But single family houses being replaced is rare, and I can't think of anything like the land assemblages you're describing. Very interesting.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 6:47 AM
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Yea, my friend grew up there and he hasn't been back in years and we drove around the other day last week and he couldn't believe how much was gone or going.

There is another project on clarke that just demolished 16 houses and a small motel to be replaced by over 300 units in 2 8 storey buildings.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 8:52 PM
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I mean, let's consider the average residential subdivision. The modern ones do tend to have relatively good sidewalk coverage, but they are seldom used, because there's nothing to walk to. Sure, kids will use them, and some people walk for exercise, but the vast majority of human walking is goal-driven, because that's what we evolved to do - walk to places as needed to survive, but conserve energy when there is no reason to walk by staying put.

So, the first thing you could do is to provide some mixed-use within the suburbs. Let people open up their own small businesses within their homes available for retail use. Have some homes knocked down or added to for small sidewalk-hugging storefronts.

But this gets to the second issue - density is too low for pedestrian-focused businesses, meaning many people would still drive within the neighborhood. This is basically the issue that modern "streetcar suburbs" often have, since shopping habits have changed and family sizes have dropped over the past century. So you'd then need to upzone as well. You'd need to let density rise at least to the point of about 20,000 ppsm over a fairly wide area (a few census tracts) before there was enough local coot traffic.

Then there would be a third issue - where would all of these new residents work, and how would they get there? In order to support a residential node of such high density, surface bus routes likely aren't going to cut it. You'd need to integrate the upzoned area with a rail line or BRT service.
Thank you for your post, Eschaton. Your comment is an excellent analysis of suburbia in a nutshell. I am from New York City, now living in Columbia, MD. I left NYC in my mid 30s,in 1989, and I clearly see the difference between a dense city and a far less densely community. When I was in NYC, walking was just a natural thing you did as part of your everyday life, and not have to be "scheduled in", because essential places here are not within any reasonable walking distance. Yes, there are paved trails that meander between residential "villages" (the names given to neighborhoods here in Columbia), but by and large, they do not connect to businesses, or cultural venues. I have to use a car for virtually all daily activity, as banks, supermarkets, doctor, etc. are reachable only by car, or infrequently-running buses which require several transfers.

Unfortunately, most suburbs had been designed as single-use "pods" (residential areas separated from business areas separated from office "parks") with connectivity only by roads, therefore requiring cars. This kind of built environment took off in earnest after WWII, when communities were built favoring automobile use, which were highly encouraged by government programs like the FHA, and further accelerated with the construction of Interstates, sometimes cutting right through neighborhoods(as what happened in my borough, the Bronx).

As noted, density definitely matters. Without suitable density, businesses would not have enough customers to be sustainable. And, mass transit definitely requires density in order to be feasible. And density fosters the dynamic excitement that makes city living desirable. I always enjoy coming home to NYC when I visit for cultural activities, visiting family and friends, or just walking endlessly taking in the widely varying and interesting architecture (rather than the mind-numbing sameness of suburbia).

Reconfiguring suburbia would be quite a job. It might very well be impossible. Would local populations agree to be relocated? Probably not. Zoning would have to be radically reworked to allow mixed-use, which would encourage a more pedestrian friendly environment.

As a side note, I have observed the insular nature that suburbia tends to exhibit. People in cars tend to be far less friendly in cars; quite a different attitude is displayed as a pedestrian. The built environment does have an affect on the behavior of people.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2019, 8:41 PM
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I mean, let's consider the average residential subdivision. The modern ones do tend to have relatively good sidewalk coverage, but they are seldom used, because there's nothing to walk to. Sure, kids will use them, and some people walk for exercise, but the vast majority of human walking is goal-driven, because that's what we evolved to do - walk to places as needed to survive, but conserve energy when there is no reason to walk by staying put.

So, the first thing you could do is to provide some mixed-use within the suburbs. Let people open up their own small businesses within their homes available for retail use. Have some homes knocked down or added to for small sidewalk-hugging storefronts.

But this gets to the second issue - density is too low for pedestrian-focused businesses, meaning many people would still drive within the neighborhood. This is basically the issue that modern "streetcar suburbs" often have, since shopping habits have changed and family sizes have dropped over the past century. So you'd then need to upzone as well. You'd need to let density rise at least to the point of about 20,000 ppsm over a fairly wide area (a few census tracts) before there was enough local coot traffic.

Then there would be a third issue - where would all of these new residents work, and how would they get there? In order to support a residential node of such high density, surface bus routes likely aren't going to cut it. You'd need to integrate the upzoned area with a rail line or BRT service.
I think it can happen, you just need to be ok with the fact that there will be a decades long transitional period where it's not walkable to the extent that most urban neighbourhoods are.

You can have houses convert their garages or ground floors to small businesses, or as you said, added on to with a small front extension. A decent chunk of their customers would still drive at first, but since it's a small business, they won't need that much parking, the space available on the driveway and on-street should be adequate, especially since all the neighbours will still have their own garages and driveways so the on-street parking is currently almost entirely unused in most suburbs. You can also have small strip malls spring up along collector roads and minor arterials which would provide retail within walking distance even though it still accommodates cars. Possibly something mixed use and multi-story, maybe even with underground parking so that the density is high enough to warrant the demolition of whatever was there before. Nonetheless, a shift away from large scale big box power centres towards more locally oriented commercial centres, even if they have a fair bit of parking would be a step in the right direction.

As for transit, it'll be gradual. First it will be barely adequate for people who can't afford a car (or can't drive for whatever reason). Then as density increases, you'll be able to provide better bus coverage with more frequent routes, and people who kind of can afford a car but would rather spend the money on something else given the opportunity, or who would have previously carpooled or gotten rides from family/friends or had some complicated system of sharing a car with their spouse are now going to start taking transit too. Now you're seeing usage increase due to both density and mode share changes, and you're starting to be able to look at light rail, BRT, express buses, commuter rail, etc and eventually people who own a car but want to to be environmentally friendly or to save on parking costs will take transit, or people who like being able to use their phones while commuting instead of staring at the road. The final stage would be when transit is faster than driving, but that's probably only going to be true for suburb to downtown commutes rather than commutes to workplaces within the suburbs.

I can tell you that transit in Mississauga is noticeably better than in most suburbs. Someone from Mississauga might not think too much of their transit system and the majority there do still drive, but as someone who's lived in neighbouring Oakville, I can tell you that having a BRT, a bunch of express routes, and 30 minute service covering almost every neighbourhood is definitely a step above the local transit service Oakville has. The last time I took the BRT there I overheard a couple of middle class teenage girls talking about how much better the transit was compared to the suburb where they used to live.

As density increases, traffic will get worse, and people and businesses will be more receptive to having businesses near transit or in local neighbourhood centres rather than in office parks in the middle of massive industrial areas.

The street grid can also be fixed incrementally. Just negotiate density bonuses or waiving of parking requirements with developers in exchange for giving up a narrow sliver of land on their redevelopment property for the city to build a walkway connecting the culs-de-sac to the arterial road that would have businesses and bus service along it. You don't need to fix every culs-de-sac, you just need to fix enough of them. Even if 50% of the residential land is on poorly connected streets, as long as you focus the upzoning/redevelopment on the streets that are better connected, the vast majority of residents will live on well connected streets. There will always be a segment of the population that still wants a car and SFH and quiet street and those can go live on those remaining poorly connected streets.
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Old Posted Jan 27, 2019, 9:53 PM
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Generally speaking, it's unlikely that your typical post-1970 suburb will ever be significantly more urban, since there's going to be more demand to intensify in the pre-WWII areas first, and the 1945-1965 developed areas second, since those are closer to the downtowns. The downtown is always going to be the main driver for urbanization, because downtowns have such a high density of office space that traffic will inevitably be bad and parking expensive, so you want to live close to downtown/near transit to downtown.

The neighbourhood next to the University of Waterloo is an example of a suburban area being urbanized. Some aspects of the transition could have been better planned, but it is starting to work out.

It was built mainly in the 1945-1970 period with ranch houses and split levels on 1/6 acre lots, with single use zoning, a few strip malls along the arterials, and a couple culs-de-sacs. As enrollment boomed and on-campus housing for students became inadequate, the neighbourhood turned into a landlord run student ghetto.

The earlier zoning wasn't very well thought out, but a few years ago codes were updated in several positive ways.

1) Parking requirements of 1 space per 5 bedrooms instead of 1 per unit. The old zoning code was causing developers to build exclusively student oriented housing with 5 bedrooms per unit to house as many students as possible for every parking space they were required to build. With the new code, you're now seeing a greater variety of unit types, with a lot more 1-2 bedroom apartments.

2) Mixed use zoning - it was previously single use. A lot of the properties along the main roads were redeveloped first, as single use multi-family residential, and now that development is moving onto the side-streets, and mixed use zoning has been instated, you're seeing a lot of ground floor retail built into the new developments on those side streets.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.47527...7i13312!8i6656

The university area has always had great bus service with dozens of bus routes passing through to reach the university, and high frequency service on the main roads, to the point where transit service there is better than in the downtowns of the metro area. Many of these have been upgraded to high frequency express bus routes and an LRT line is now on the verge of opening.

Development has no largely shifted away from 3-4 storey buildings towards midrises and highrises. You're currently looking at about 15,000 people (mainly students) and 25k ppsm density although that's rapidly increasing with about half of all units built between 2011 and 2016.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2019, 2:35 AM
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James Bond Agent 007 James Bond Agent 007 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
Thanks. That's not the question here. Nobody is saying this has to be mandatory. We are asking if it's possible in the places/times where people might want it to happen. Please don't derail the thread.
It would have to be a Detroit-esque situation where most, or even all, of the existing housing stock is abandoned or torn down so you could start all over again. Otherwise, getting a whole bunch of people to sell their houses all at once is never going to happen. Doing it organically with just, say, a house here and there being replaced by a duplex or small apartment, won't work either, because one thing you'd need to do to tear up all the streets to completely reconfigure them into something more urban.

IOW, you can't just turn this into this without ripping up the entire neighborhood and starting all over again.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2019, 5:20 PM
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My suburb is quite walkable. We're an old suburb, dating back to 1865 on the UPNW rail line out of Chicago, and over the last 20 years there's been an incredible amount of density added around the Metra station for a burb of our size.
Over the last 15 years I've loved walking into the downtown area for restaurants and bars, street festivals, 4th of july parades and fireworks.

We moved further out from the core last year, not an easy 0.9 mile walk to the Metra anymore, now it's 1.8 miles. But my neighborhood is still walkable. My son will walk to 1st grade next year without crossing any major roads. The library and grocery store are a 10-15 minute walk. So those who want to walk, can. Redevelopment is happening organically in the core next to Metra, as the market demands. I don't see a need to force anything else.

We have a good bike path and bike lane system, and I see it as much more practical to ensure that the suburbs are bikeable rather than walkable. I wouldn't walk the 1.8 miles to Metra for a daily commute, but I would bike it. Similar for shopping. With a bike trailer, every major store in town is 10 minutes away, and I can haul home what I bought, within reason. Burbs should encourage more daily biking for short trips.

But cars aren't going away for the big destination type retail in the burbs. Today's a snow day, I'm working from home, and my wife took my son out to Legoland in Schaumburg. That's 5-6 miles away on a cold snowy day. No one is travelling there except by car, and I don't see anything changing that.

Continue the Transit oriented development trend, focus on the core, expand bike lanes, and let the rest be. Those who don't like burbs shouldn't live in one. Plenty of other options now.
In fact I was pretty happy to get my home for $30k under list price and not have to outbid an army of opportunist investors looking to level a mature neighborhood for apartment blocks.

Last edited by aaron38; Jan 28, 2019 at 8:15 PM.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2019, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007 View Post
It would have to be a Detroit-esque situation where most, or even all, of the existing housing stock is abandoned or torn down so you could start all over again. Otherwise, getting a whole bunch of people to sell their houses all at once is never going to happen. Doing it organically with just, say, a house here and there being replaced by a duplex or small apartment, won't work either, because one thing you'd need to do to tear up all the streets to completely reconfigure them into something more urban.

IOW, you can't just turn this into this without ripping up the entire neighborhood and starting all over again.
The typical residential street in a subdivision is designed to have pretty good connectivity to the local arterial, they're just not that well connected to each other and not really designed for through traffic. But the vast majority of trips a person would make in an urban setting would be to the local arterial, since that's where transit and retail would usually be. It's not *that* much of a big deal if it takes a couple extra minutes to walk to two random houses on cul-de-sacs.

Suburban Bangkok has a fair bit of mixed use at the local scale, and buildings with an urban form, and decent amount of pedestrian activity, despite relatively high car ownership rates and development patterns that are a much more disjointed patchwork of poorly connected subdivisions than most of suburban America (including that KC suburb).
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