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  #7381  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:13 AM
mhays mhays is offline
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Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat View Post
I fear that one of us is not fully aware of the facts, and it could certainly be me. When looking at their website, the City of Lone Tree expects that the entire master-planned Ridge Gate community will have 10,000 units housing approximately 30,000 people. 8,000 of those units, that I'm just going to mathematically assume will house 24,000 people, will be spread out on 1,800 acres of land on the undeveloped eastern side. That results in a population density of over 8,000 people per square mile on the eastern development that we are talking about. Not only is that a greater density than Denver, it's even more dense than Seattle. How is that uninhibited suburban sprawl?
Aw, Seattle in real time should be in the 9,100 range, or about 8,900 16 months ago per the Census Dept. (Gotta fight the important battles here.)

Orderly, planned, semi-densish sprawl is better than disorderly sprawl, but infill is far better.

Take Five, the other half of the equation needs to be a requirement that local areas accept infill. This is also how it's done in some areas...the Northwest states do this much better than California. The key is state control, because people will vote for things statewide that they wouldn't vote for locally, and because only the state can rein in the non-complying localities.
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  #7382  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:42 AM
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Sam Hill Sam Hill is offline
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Originally Posted by DenvertoLA View Post
We're looking at it from different angles. You're seeing a well thought out development with aspirations of high density that has a train. I'm seeing another 1,800 acre of ranch land turning into boxcutter homes, offices, and apartment complexes that place people farther and farther away from downtown or other places of interest.

If you look at SE Denver's development over the past 2 decades it has been full of this style of development. It's bad for the environment, it's requires looong commutes, and does not promote living, working, and eating locally. If anything this project is going to promote sprawl deeper into the middle of nowhere.

In a 2014 study on sprawl it ranked 229 with a sprawl index scores. 1 having the most dense and connected metro, 229 having the most sprawl. Denver-Aurora-Broomfield ranked 92nd. That's not very good, and it's projects like this have led to that high number.

https://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/a...prawl-2014.pdf
I hate sprawl as much as the next guy, but there's no stopping it without literally outlawing it. Lone tree is going to boom and build out whether anyone likes it or not. There's tremendous demand to live and work in that area and developers develop where the demand is. I'm afraid this "urban" suburb is the best we could hope for.

Nevertheless, I understand the sentiment and agree with every word of your post. Well, except for one part. This isn't the middle of nowhere. The stretch of suburban development along highway 83 from Parker to Franktown is quickly stretching west and south, and filling in the gap between Parker/Franktown and Castle Rock / Castle Pines - which are quickly stretching east and north. In fact, I can't think of any part of the suburbs/exurbs developing faster than the stretch of Highway 86 between those two areas. If Lone Tree never got developed, it would quickly get surrounded and become a big hole in the suburban fabric. Sad, I know.
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  #7383  
Old Posted Yesterday, 4:15 AM
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TakeFive TakeFive is offline
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Originally Posted by DenvertoLA View Post
We're looking at it from different angles. You're seeing a well thought out development with aspirations of high density that has a train. I'm seeing another 1,800 acre of ranch land turning into boxcutter homes, offices, and apartment complexes that place people farther and farther away from downtown or other places of interest.
SirLucasTheGreat pretty much nails it but to amplify a little is how much of an employment center Lone Tree will be; that's the primary and huge difference maker with plain vanilla sprawl. Some of the city center details sound impressive to me.

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...ty-center.html
Quote:
Developers estimate the expansion will create 40,000 new jobs and a new downtown to work, live and play for the city of Lone Tree.

City Center on the east side will be a true grid of street with block sizes almost identical to Cherry Creek North, which will make it very walkable. The west side is [made up of] more big blocks for those campus-types of users, so it’ll be really quite different.

We built in plenty of public spaces in the plan. One of them is a four-acre plaza right at the rail station — that’ll be an important public space for events, activities, concerts … We’re going to have Festival Street come off the plaza and that will be an enhanced streetscape with special pavers so that you could close the street off for nighttime and weekend events.

We also plan to have a really interesting bicycle network that goes through City Center … The bicycle trail will be out of the road bed and separate from the sidewalks. There’s a similar network in Indianapolis.

The city of Lone Tree is also looking to build a new City Hall, which would be part of City Center.

We’ll have about 2,500 residential units — most as multi-family properties. We plan to have a residential district in City Center, which would be around a park, but there would be hotels, offices and retail also embedded.
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  #7384  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:05 PM
HighRanch HighRanch is offline
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
SirLucasTheGreat pretty much nails it but to amplify a little is how much of an employment center Lone Tree will be; that's the primary and huge difference maker with plain vanilla sprawl. Some of the city center details sound impressive to me.

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...ty-center.html
Also find it interesting the loose definition of "sprawl" as pretty much any development that does not fit into the small box of acceptable growth with less 100 steps to the nearest public transportation.

As defined by Wiki "Urban sprawl or suburban sprawl mainly refers to the unrestricted growth in many urban areas of housing, commercial development, and roads over large expanses of land, with little concern for urban planning.

I believe that most of these southern central suburbs that are being referred to as "sprawl" were highly managed/planned communities that had defined borders, development, and infrastructure.
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  #7385  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:30 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by HighRanch View Post
Also find it interesting the loose definition of "sprawl" as pretty much any development that does not fit into the small box of acceptable growth with less 100 steps to the nearest public transportation.

As defined by Wiki "Urban sprawl or suburban sprawl mainly refers to the unrestricted growth in many urban areas of housing, commercial development, and roads over large expanses of land, with little concern for urban planning.

I believe that most of these southern central suburbs that are being referred to as "sprawl" were highly managed/planned communities that had defined borders, development, and infrastructure.
There is another level to "highly managed/planned" that I see becoming more pervasive. The suburban communities are quickly trying to fundamentally change how we live, work, play. Many of our suburbs are trying to become job centers, think Westminster, Lone Tree, Superior/South Broomfield, Stapleton. While it's tricky to get it right (they need more ample density to support the retail and office uses they are planning, those places are at least heading in the right direction and in the long term I fundamentally see our City changing. By changing I mean some people like urban cores and some people like suburbs. Now the folks in the suburbs increasingly have an opportunity to work where they live, which is closer to a lot of the things they enjoy than Downtown. Much like the central city of old Denver has pockets of blocks and street corners for each neighborhood (and back in the day those were the employment centers). We are doing that in the suburbs on a much larger scale right now. It will take time to unfold, but if the job supporting suburbs like Lone Tree can get MORE density, I sort of think we'll have less traffic in the long run as more and more people live closer to where they work. Everything in between the suburbs and the Central core is completely f***** though with it's 1940's - 1950's density. Then there is the central core which, as it becomes much more dense (assuming our City Council doesn't turn completely commie), will really help to transform how our city fundamentally functions > 30 year timeframe.
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  #7386  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:38 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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Sprawl refers to outward expansion. There are a million gray areas...density, whether there's room to infill instead, mix of uses, and so on.

In this one, jobs are a double-edge sword...better sprawl, but also inducing demand for more residential sprawl further out, if it's allowed.
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  #7387  
Old Posted Yesterday, 7:50 PM
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All you have to do is count the number of parking spots added for all of this development in LT. I'm guessing 2.5 per house and 1.25 per office. That'll tell you if it's anything but a rehash of the same old shit. But keep fudging the numbers to make yourself feel okay about this.
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  #7388  
Old Posted Yesterday, 8:29 PM
SirLucasTheGreat SirLucasTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
All you have to do is count the number of parking spots added for all of this development in LT. I'm guessing 2.5 per house and 1.25 per office. That'll tell you if it's anything but a rehash of the same old shit. But keep fudging the numbers to make yourself feel okay about this.
I've been talking about the planned development on the east side of I-25. The plans for the east side are not the same as for what has already been built on the west side. Aside from the RTD extension, nothing has really been developed on the east side yet so there are no useful parking spaces for one to count. Some of the homes might break ground in 2020 or 2021. They are planning to build 8,000 homes on 1,800 acres of land. They are planning to build their mixed-use City center, which they project will house 5,000 residents, on a 400 acre plot of land anchored by a light rail station.

As of now, LT has five light rail stations, a free shuttle, and local bus service. I've been going off their website for virtually every number that I have mentioned. Which numbers have been fudged and can you provide any example of any other metro development with comparable density and transit connectivity? I would rather talk about Denver developments like Market Station or the Gates District but this LT conversation has seemed to captivate interest.

Last edited by SirLucasTheGreat; Yesterday at 8:52 PM.
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  #7389  
Old Posted Yesterday, 9:20 PM
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wong21fr wong21fr is offline
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Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat View Post
IAs of now, LT has five light rail stations, a free shuttle, and local bus service. I've been going off their website for virtually every number that I have mentioned. Which numbers have been fudged and can you provide any example of any other metro development with comparable density and transit connectivity? I would rather talk about Denver developments like Market Station or the Gates District but this LT conversation has seemed to captivate interest.
The fudged numbers are the population density arguments. This place won't have 8K/sq mile. It's more in the 4K/sq mile range assuming that Lone Tree's average household size translates to the eastern portion. If there's a lot of apartment and condos on the east side, than the population density might just go down. It's comparable to a Stapleton, but it's not exactly groundbreaking in my mind, rather it's a density that all new suburban development should aim for.

Other local developments that are on par (asides from size) are Downtown Westminster, Stapleton, and the Gates District- which blows Ridgegate out of the water in terms of development density. That Rigegate has three light rail stations is great, but how much will these lines be used to get people to to and around Ridgegate? Given where Ridgeate is likely to draw workers from, that being Parker and Castle Rock, most of them will simply drive and park. The plus is they won't be chocking I-25 further north, but Lincoln and Ridgegate Parkway will become messes.

It's not that this is a horrible development, it's not. Rather it's a sad reflection that it took a development all the way out at I-25 and Lincoln to finally get it right while you have such superb suburban shitholes such as Park Meadows, Inverness, and the Tech Center that missed the mark and contributed to suburban sprawl in some of the worst possible ways.
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  #7390  
Old Posted Yesterday, 9:58 PM
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Exactly, wong. It's not that this development is bad, it's that we decided that slightly less mediocre is revolutionary. Let's look at it for what it is. It's asprawlt, greenfield subdivision that's marginally better than stuff built in the early 90s.
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  #7391  
Old Posted Yesterday, 10:00 PM
SirLucasTheGreat SirLucasTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
The fudged numbers are the population density arguments. This place won't have 8K/sq mile. It's more in the 4K/sq mile range assuming that Lone Tree's average household size translates to the eastern portion. If there's a lot of apartment and condos on the east side, than the population density might just go down. It's comparable to a Stapleton, but it's not exactly groundbreaking in my mind, rather it's a density that all new suburban development should aim for.

Other local developments that are on par (asides from size) are Downtown Westminster, Stapleton, and the Gates District- which blows Ridgegate out of the water in terms of development density. That Rigegate has three light rail stations is great, but how much will these lines be used to get people to to and around Ridgegate? Given where Ridgeate is likely to draw workers from, that being Parker and Castle Rock, most of them will simply drive and park. The plus is they won't be chocking I-25 further north, but Lincoln and Ridgegate Parkway will become messes.

It's not that this is a horrible development, it's not. Rather it's a sad reflection that it took a development all the way out at I-25 and Lincoln to finally get it right while you have such superb suburban shitholes such as Park Meadows, Inverness, and the Tech Center that missed the mark and contributed to suburban sprawl in some of the worst possible ways.
Reasonable points. As you stated, DTC is problematic. With regard to the density issue, I would simply invite people to review the website and make calculations themselves. I do not use math skills much as a lawyer but I thought that vi explained my work earlier.

My interest in LT is that they are essentially building a Cherry Creek North downtown area around a transit station. If the actual Cherry Creek North were built around the Colorado Station for example, I think we would all be much happier. I'm glad that the Gates District, Santa Fe Yards, and 38th and Blake are all developing. However, as others have stated earlier, we should've accomplished much more and much better transit oriented development in the 25 years that we have had a passenger rail system
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  #7392  
Old Posted Yesterday, 10:59 PM
HighRanch HighRanch is offline
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
all the way out at I-25 and Lincoln to finally get it right while you have such superb suburban shitholes such as Park Meadows, Inverness, and the Tech Center that missed the mark
Clearly see his slant here....not going to convince him of anything rational with this sentiment...just really not productive discourse.
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  #7393  
Old Posted Today, 3:59 AM
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TakeFive TakeFive is offline
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Other local developments that are on par (asides from size) are Downtown Westminster, Stapleton, and the Gates District- which blows Ridgegate out of the water in terms of development density. That Rigegate has three light rail stations is great, but how much will these lines be used to get people to to and around Ridgegate? Given where Ridgeate is likely to draw workers from, that being Parker and Castle Rock, most of them will simply drive and park. The plus is they won't be chocking I-25 further north, but Lincoln and Ridgegate Parkway will become messes.

It's not that this is a horrible development, it's not. Rather it's a sad reflection that it took a development all the way out at I-25 and Lincoln to finally get it right while you have such superb suburban shitholes such as Park Meadows, Inverness, and the Tech Center that missed the mark and contributed to suburban sprawl in some of the worst possible ways.
I've critiqued DTC using a current lens. But it wasn't a lost opportunity. It was far and away the most successful office park development when it was built. It wasn't until about 2012 when downtown Denver finally blossomed that many cared or even noticed downtown.

The DTC was established in 1962 and grew up during the 1970's and 1980's. Do you recall what downtown Denver was like during those three decades? It was a hot mess except for the oil boom of the early 1980's.

It's fair to say that Park Meadows is likely the last traditional mall that will be built. That said who do you suppose generates more sales: Cherry Creek Mall or Park Meadows. Interestingly such malls are easy to redevelop; what's important is the value of the land and that site will always be prime. You can also do an adaptive reuse like Google who leased an old mall in L.A. and put 8,000 employees inside.

With respect to Lone Tree where did Charles Schwab decide to locate? It hasn't even been 6 months since Kiewit chose Lone Tree. Where did Sky Ridge Medical choose? Allstate? Nationwide? etc.

Businesses and people decide to live in the suburbs and Lone Tree for lots of good reasons. They couldn't give two chits about downtown Denver and it's silly to compare both using the same "urban obsessed" standards.

Those that want to bow to the density gods should love downtown Denver. Others who ask five other questions first and may never ask about specific density can then choose to live in high quality suburban locations if that's their preference. Live and Let Live.
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  #7394  
Old Posted Today, 5:07 AM
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Buzz Geller has another site under contract

Things are heating up on Santa Fe: https://businessden.com/2019/11/14/d...ject-on-block/
Quote:
A developer building an apartment project in the 1200 block of Santa Fe Drive wants to do it again. Leon Cisneros submitted an early-stage development proposal to the city last week, proposing an eight-story project on the southwest corner lot at 1277 Santa Fe Drive in Lincoln Park.

The 0.46-acre site, which consists of a vacant single-story building surrounded by parking, is mere steps from Cisneros’ similarly sized project already under construction at 1225 Santa Fe Drive. Only a Volunteers of America facility separates the two sites.

The corner lot is owned by Paradise Land Co., led by Buzz Geller.
Buzz has wanted to build a parking garage but The Dirt said No Bueno!
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