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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2017, 5:26 PM
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^Could possibly be lack of accurate infrastructure information. Which would not be surprising in Canada.
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2017, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by speedog View Post
Interesting that the city of Edmonton at 900,000 people hasore streetlights (100,000) then the city of Calgary (1,235,00 people, 90,000 lights). Either one has an abundance of lighting or the other is lacking or maybe it's something else.
Population doesn't tell you much. Land area would tell you more.

Calgary has the most progressive policy to light infiltration I've ever seen. You can see stars there.
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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2017, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
Montreal is. There was a big debate about the blueness of the new lights. Finally the city chose a warmer hue.
Do you mean Montreal has converted or is converting as this news article from 8 weeks ago indicates that the city is studying the switchover to LEDs?
Quote:
Montreal studying switch to LED street lights

Montreal is preparing to change more than 100,000 street lights for high-efficiency LEDs, but there are concerns about the effect this will have on people.

At the city's request, the Quebec public health department looked into the matter, paying particular attention to the colour spectrum used by the lights.
The white lights have a colour-temperature of 4,000 K which is on the cool, blue end of the spectrum as opposed to warm, or yellowish white lights.
...
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2017, 5:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
Population doesn't tell you much. Land area would tell you more.

Calgary has the most progressive policy to light infiltration I've ever seen. You can see stars there.
Which is interesting because it used to have one of the worst levels of light pollution in North America. They aggressively changed to dimmer / downward facing lights about 20 years go IIRC. Maybe a bit more recently.

I remember as a kid the orange glow at night even when it wasn't cloudy!
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  #25  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2017, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
Population doesn't tell you much. Land area would tell you more.

Calgary has the most progressive policy to light infiltration I've ever seen. You can see stars there.
Can see stars in Edmonton to. Plus on the good evenings even the Northern Lights. Plus YEG has a dark sky preserve only 30km east of the city. I have noticed a number of the Petro Chem plants NE of the City also switching to LED.
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  #26  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2017, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Airboy View Post
Edmonton is well on its way to converting 100, 000 sodium vapor lights. Estimates of up to 50% power savings by 2020. All of the Traffic signals should be converted by now. I like the newer light as well. it makes it easier to see pedestrians. The orange hew made it hard to see people at night since everyone seams to wear black now. Also noticed the glow from the city is less noticeable when driving in at night. From the air it looks great.
Unfortunately it's just the opposite. Here's an interesting read with comparisons of cities before and after they switched to LED lights.

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/pho...pollution-leds

http://www.businessinsider.com/citie...012-and-2015-1
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  #27  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2017, 12:00 AM
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Kingston made the switch to LEDs in 2013 and I love them. So much easier to see.

Ottawa's in the middle of the switch right now.
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  #28  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2017, 3:33 AM
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Montreal hasn't converted yet. They only announced they would be changing to LEDs a few weeks ago.
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2017, 3:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MTLskyline View Post
Montreal hasn't converted yet. They only announced they would be changing to LEDs a few weeks ago.
Two conflicting stories here, yours and d_jeffrey's - what to believe, what to believe.

fit: read linked article above and it would appear that the city of Montreal has not made any decision yet.
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2017, 4:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedog View Post
Two conflicting stories here, yours and d_jeffrey's - what to believe, what to believe.

fit: read linked article above and it would appear that the city of Montreal has not made any decision yet.
Yes it did. The city is going for 3000 kelvin led (like Toronto). The replacement is already under way.
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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2017, 4:44 AM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
When I was in Northern Ontario for work a bunch in summer / fall of 2015 I noticed that most towns had completely switched over to LED. Like, 100% - not just in some areas or as part of life cycle upgrading. I would imagine there were some infrastructure grants involved and some sort of cost-benefit analysis to show that it was worth it to do so.
I know that the City of Timmins received a $400,000 grant from the Ontario Power Authority. (not for profit corporation) But the cost of the entire project was 2.6 million dollars so the grant wasn't really that much. All of the approximately 4000 street lights in our city were changed to LED in 2015. Our city council decided that the savings of having LEDs was so good that it was worth replacing all of the lights. We were told that the project would pay for itself in 5.5 years. And the LEDs were all installed within about 3 or 4 months over a large area which includes a number of rural roads within city limits. The high pressure sodium lights were at the end of their lifespan and I think most were at least 30 years old. The electricity cost per year was about $615,000 for the old lights and the new ones cost about $ 200,000 per year according to the Public Works department.

Some of the other towns in the region did theirs a bit before Timmins. That includes Black River-Matheson, Iroquois Falls and Cochrane. I think Kapuskasing and Hearst have done theirs but I haven't been to either place for awhile.
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2017, 5:22 AM
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Saskatoon has been putting LED street lights into new developments. Evergreen is LED. Not certain about retrofits.
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2017, 1:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddog View Post
Do you mean Montreal has converted or is converting as this news article from 8 weeks ago indicates that the city is studying the switchover to LEDs?
Yes, some of those were already installed and will be removed and replaced by t the warmer hue.
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2017, 1:34 AM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
Unfortunately it's just the opposite. Here's an interesting read with comparisons of cities before and after they switched to LED lights.

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/pho...pollution-leds

http://www.businessinsider.com/citie...012-and-2015-1
I've worked in the commercial lighting industry my entire career, here's my two cents.

Those articles are flawed. A) you're comparing two images taken at separate times with different cameras. Not apples to to apples. B) what those images show is what the ground looks like, not the sky above the ground.

Light pollution generally refers to artificial lighting lighting the sky, which LED does a much better job of limiting than traditional sources due to LED being a directional source. Ie. The light can only go in the direction the source faces. Traditional sources (in the case of roadway High Pressure Sodium and Metal Halide) are omni-directional sources meaning that the light from the bulb goes in all directions. The fixture has a reflector which directs the light where it's intended to go, but in most cases you still get light that go above the fixture. With LED fixtures you don't, unless it has been designed to do so.

The only way LED fixtures used for roadway can illuminate the sky is by reflecting off the ground, which in the case of pavement is typically less than 1%, usually closer to 0.1%.

The only real differences in those two images is that the colour of the illuminated surfaces has changed from amber to white, and on a photograph white will appear brighter.

LED has its cons, but increased light pollution isn't one of them. In fact most municipalities now require all public works light fixtures to be dark sky compliant, meaning zero light going above the fixture's horizontal.

There are also now much more stringent bylaws limiting light trespass, which basically means the light should only illuminate what it's intended to illuminate and nothing else. The reason these bylaws exist is because with LED this is now possible. With traditional sources it would've been much more difficult to achieve. LEED is the most stringent I've seen in this regard, they allow for a maximum of 1 lux on the property line and 0.1 lux 3m from the property line for private properties' site lighting. 0.1 lux is essentially what you're getting from moonlight.

The reason that this misconception of "LEDs are too bright" exists is because a lot people don't know how to design with LED properly. They overlight to 30-50 lux for site lights when IES recommendation is 10-20 lux. But that's because in the HPS and MH days you'd have a vig hotspot underneath the fixture which increased the overall average to 30-50. LEDs are nuch more uniform so the hotspot underneat the fixture is almost nonexistent, so 10-20 lux with LED is just as safe if not safer than 30-50 lux with HPS/MH due to the property bein much more uniformly illuminated.

All that said, the people above who said LED can mess with circadian rhythms are correct. LED has a spike in the blue spectrum which our bodies associate with daylight. Most pole lights jave an amber colour option, however the it's about 30% less efficient than 4000K light due tobextra layers of phosphor coating being required on the LED, so municipalities by and large haven't gone for that option until recently.
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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2017, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
I haven't noticed street lights but the traffic signals are being upgraded in Toronto.

**edit:

Okay. 150 Lights so far.
http://www.torontohydro.com/sites/el...eetlights.aspx


Everyone is going to upgrade. It just makes too much sense. The bulbs are much more efficient and long lasting.

Alert**Off topic**Alert

Now I'm wondering if the leaseable areas in brand new office buildings are still lit by fluorescent tubes lighting. I would guess the costs of LED are an issue.
I've seen them on a portion of King West. Toronto seems really far behind on this compared to some smaller cities. I'm really looking forward to LED being implemented in my neighborhood as currently I'm at a height where the streetlights are at the same level as my windows, and even with blinds I still get lots of orange light in my bedroom at night.

The City of London says they've converted about 9000 out of 35,000 streetlights so far. I believe they started the switchover in 2015.

My only beef with LEDs is that they sometimes can illuminate a street less than the HPS lights. I once almost hit a pedestrian that I was unable to see on a dimly-lit LED street that I had been used to being much better lit than when it had HPS.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2017, 10:40 PM
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While not true street lighting per say the Distillery has been lighting it's pedestrian streets for years with LED's.

[IMG]24 by munn1, on Flickr[/IMG]
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2017, 12:04 AM
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Last summer, Cochenour, ON converted to an all-LED lighting system.
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2017, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
I've seen them on a portion of King West. Toronto seems really far behind on this compared to some smaller cities. I'm really looking forward to LED being implemented in my neighborhood as currently I'm at a height where the streetlights are at the same level as my windows, and even with blinds I still get lots of orange light in my bedroom at night.
Not behind. I'm glad Toronto has waited for the technology to come to a point where they don't have to give up the classic acorn head light standard. The light standard outside your window should produce a bright white light.
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  #39  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2017, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
I've seen them on a portion of King West. Toronto seems really far behind on this compared to some smaller cities. I'm really looking forward to LED being implemented in my neighborhood as currently I'm at a height where the streetlights are at the same level as my windows, and even with blinds I still get lots of orange light in my bedroom at night.
Not behind. I'm glad Toronto has waited for the technology to come to a point where they don't have to give up the classic acorn head light standard.
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2017, 3:11 AM
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Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
Not behind. I'm glad Toronto has waited for the technology to come to a point where they don't have to give up the classic acorn head light standard.
Yea, I'm honestly hoping they can try keeping the classic acorn head around, it's quite beautiful and historic. I'm also incredibly used to orange lights in Toronto so once they'll change it to LED's, I'll be pretty annoyed. I always have liked orange lights, they just look really interesting.

Mississauga has been switching their lights to LED's over the past couple years, and it looks........idek.
It's really weird. Some areas of the city still have a light or two with the amber lights, which I enjoy, but it's a strange thing to see when you consider that these lights are being phased out yet not phased out all in one swoop.
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