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  #1  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 8:38 PM
Stryker Stryker is offline
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Canada's Panamerica Identity

Do you think canada will ever embrace an identity that is more in reference to NA-SA.
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  #2  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 8:45 PM
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It already has one, moreso than the United States, at least.

Every time one of my Spanish-speaking friends shares a post on FB, I know it's going to be something in reference to "America is a continent, not a country". They're basically me, but about that, instead of Newfoundland.

I think people here are generally very connected to America. North-south bonds are strong than east-west ones.

But we're also very aware we're not American.

So that creates just enough conflict that it's only natural Canadians realize we're ALL American, from the muskeg to Patagonia.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 9:11 PM
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It's not that hard a concept to understand:

In the English language "America" refers to the United States, and "American" refers to a citizen of the United States.

Some other languages use "America" to mean the entire landmass from top to bottom, notably Spanish (and, I think, Portuguese). But there's a good argument to be made that that doesn't really make a lot of sense, as it is actually two continents.

Not one. Two.

What they really mean by "America" is the "New World," and that's a problematic concept in itself due to its Eurocentrism. See what I just did there?

Latin Americans can blather on all they want that "America is a continent," but that doesn't make it so, and we are under no obligation to change our terminology for their benefit. They sound like miserable, small-minded cranks when they hold forth on how wrong they think we are about this.

It's a meaningless, tedious argument that nobody cares about save for them. I've heard it before, and I just laugh, shrug my shoulders and change the topic. Or order another beer.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
It already has one, moreso than the United States, at least.
Did you just say that Canada is more connected or identifies more closely to South America than the U.S.? Seriously?

That's preposterous. For numerous reasons. Just one single word gives the lie to that notion: Miami.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 9:17 PM
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No...

Two things: first, I wish I could be a cunt around people who annoy me. But I can't. It's just not in me. A tenant once invited his friend over to do her laundry here. I was livid. I ended up doing it while they went out, even though I went downstairs with the intention to evict him and tell her to fuck off back to Etobicoke.

Second, no... our connection with the U.S. is stronger. I just meant... O.K, let me just say what I actually think so it's clear and can't be misinterpreted: Canada isn't a "thing". It's a political arrangement. The THING is NL/Maritimes/New England, TO/Great Lakes US/Eastern Seaboard, Prairies/Prairies. B.C./Washington. We have stronger connections to the portions of America below us than we do to each other.

But because we're separate countries, we know that things... this common "American-ness", isn't based on the U.S. alone, so we're more open to the Spanish/Portuguese obsession that the America/Americans in the U.S. are doing it wrong.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 9:32 PM
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Don't know about historically, but the US is certainly becoming more Pan-American simply due to their enormous and growing Hispanic community.

I'd say Canada is more Pan-European than anything.
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  #7  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 9:35 PM
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If there's one thing on the internet that annoys me (obviously there are FAR more than one, but I digress), it's South American's attacking anyone who refers to the United States as "America". Yeah, we get it, it's all the new world or whatever. But people from the US refer to themselves as American, and so does pretty much everywhere else in the world. I'd never think to refer to myself as American simply because I reside on the North American continent.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
No...

Two things: first, I wish I could be a cunt around people who annoy me. But I can't. It's just not in me.
Erm...did you really just suggest that I'm a cunt for laughing at South Americans who corner you at a party and hold forth in earnest on the topic of the proper meaning of "America"? If so, then I don't think you know the proper meaning of said c-word.

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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
Second, no... our connection with the U.S. is stronger. I just meant... O.K, let me just say what I actually think so it's clear and can't be misinterpreted: Canada isn't a "thing". It's a political arrangement. The THING is NL/Maritimes/New England, TO/Great Lakes US/Eastern Seaboard, Prairies/Prairies. B.C./Washington. We have stronger connections to the portions of America below us than we do to each other.
That's not true at all. We've gone over this before on this board.

Ontario has very little connection to New York or Michigan, save perhaps for economically with the car industry. They feel completely different. They are cut off from us by the water. Toronto does not feel or look even the slightest bit like Buffalo or Detroit, Chicago or Cleveland, etc. Not in the slightest.

Quebec and New York/Vermont? 'Nuff said. The borders are real cultural and social demarcations, they aren't just arbitrary lines in the sand.

You have a greater case for the similarity between the rural Prairies and North Dakota, etc. As for BC and Washngton, I've heard impassioned arguments both for and against cultural similarities. Same for Atlantic Canada and New England.

But this notion of greater vertical affinities than horizontal ones for Canada vis-a-vis the U.S. is overblown. It's a cute notion that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Any Canadian in Toronto is going to feel a more immediate affinity with someone in Vancouver in terms of shared culture and history than he will with someone from Detroit. In spite of how much we are influenced by the U.S., we really are oriented horizontally.

Having said that, I see no evidence anywhere that Canadians are more open to the notion of America as the New World than America as the United States. We speak the same language as the people immediately south of us, and have shared a lot of mass media culture for a good century or more, so we've taken their use of "America" on board. I don't see it changing.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
What they really mean by "America" is the "New World," and that's a problematic concept in itself due to its Eurocentrism. See what I just did there?

Latin Americans can blather on all they want that "America is a continent," but that doesn't make it so, and we are under no obligation to change our terminology for their benefit. They sound like miserable, small-minded cranks when they hold forth on how wrong they think we are about this.

It's a meaningless, tedious argument that nobody cares about save for them. I've heard it before, and I just laugh, shrug my shoulders and change the topic. Or order another beer.
Ha ha, that was pretty accurate and I agree completely.

Still - and this is anecdotal - but I've only heard the groan-inducing "Americas" definition come from the mouths of Chileans, Uruguayans and Argentinians. At the very least, I've never heard a Mexican or a Brazilian say this.
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  #10  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 9:47 PM
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No, Just that you're... you wouldnt have ended up doing her laundry. ;-)

And, even if I did mean that (and I didn't), it was in a positive sense.

I was just saying I wish I could react to my South American friends that way. But I don't. I end up in drunken debates, hugs, etc.

It's good most time. I like I can't go through a checkout anywhere in Canada and not learn the cashier's life story. But, sometimes, it'd be nice to be that reserved, bitchy, thing.

****

As for vertical being more... I think you're wrong. I think, if we all went out for a beer, one from each state, I sure as hell wouldn't be with the TO crowd. I'd be with the Maritimes, and New England. And we'd be having a time. And you'd be with NYC or whoever. If this happened, you and I would be introduced via Boston/New York getting together and doing it - NOT by meeting each other face value. And the west would be with each other.

I've seen it actually happen too often to believe it's not the natural reaction.
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  #11  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
But this notion of greater vertical affinities than horizontal ones for Canada vis-a-vis the U.S. is overblown. It's a cute notion that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Any Canadian in Toronto is going to feel a more immediate affinity with someone in Vancouver in terms of shared culture and history than he will with someone from Detroit. In spite of how much we are influenced by the U.S., we really are oriented horizontally.
Yes, that is actually true.
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  #12  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 9:51 PM
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Also, I do not really see a Pan-American identity. I do see similarities between Canada and certain parts of Northern US but it gets quickly blurred as you get down south.
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  #13  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
It's not that hard a concept to understand:

In the English language "America" refers to the United States, and "American" refers to a citizen of the United States.

Some other languages use "America" to mean the entire landmass from top to bottom, notably Spanish (and, I think, Portuguese). But there's a good argument to be made that that doesn't really make a lot of sense, as it is actually two continents.

Not one. Two.

What they really mean by "America" is the "New World," and that's a problematic concept in itself due to its Eurocentrism. See what I just did there?

Latin Americans can blather on all they want that "America is a continent," but that doesn't make it so, and we are under no obligation to change our terminology for their benefit. They sound like miserable, small-minded cranks when they hold forth on how wrong they think we are about this.

It's a meaningless, tedious argument that nobody cares about save for them. I've heard it before, and I just laugh, shrug my shoulders and change the topic. Or order another beer.
In Latin America "continente" and "hemisferio" are used interchangeably to mean "The Americas". I agree, however, that North and South America are two different continents.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
As for vertical being more... I think you're wrong. I think, if we all went out for a beer, one from each state, I sure as hell wouldn't be with the TO crowd. I'd be with the Maritimes, and New England. And we'd be having a time. And you'd be with NYC or whoever. And the west would be with each other.

I've seen it actually happen too often to believe it's not the natural reaction.
Thing is, I've got American friends. Seriously, I do. And while living overseas there have been times that I've avoided the Canadians at the pub and gone over and sat with the Americans.

I'm just talking about immediate socio-cultural affinities. They don't necessarily run that deep, and they don't mean that Canada and the U.S. are different planets the way that India and China, say, are.

You're pushing this New England and the Maritimes narrative too far. Someone from Boston is going to have a lot more in common with someone from New York than they will with someone from Halifax or St. John's at the socio-cultural affinity level. "Massholes" from Western Massachusetts are going to have virtually nothing in common with Newfoundland, but they will totally be in sync with the guys from New Jersey.

My guess is that people on the coast of Maine probably really do share a lot in common with coastal Maritimers, but you're extrapolating this too far.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 10:10 PM
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I see far more of a cultural and historical connection between Canada and Western and Northern Europe than I do with South America.

What exactly is the connection between Canada and South America? We're in the same hemisphere? We're both technically part of the same landmass? Do we even get many immigrants from South America, compared to places like east and south Asia? I don't really see the connection.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 10:15 PM
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I see far more of a cultural and historical connection between Canada and Western and Northern Europe than I do with South America.

What exactly is the connection between Canada and South America? We're in the same hemisphere? We're both technically part of the same landmass? Do we even get many immigrants from South America, compared to places like east and south Asia? I don't really see the connection.
The connections we do have are with the USA and the Caribbean. Look how long it took us to join the Organization of American States, even after they were nice enough to build a chair for us!
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 10:25 PM
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Agree. Canada has connections to northern USA (and Florida, Arizona and California for holiday reasons). There are some connections to the Carribean and to Bermuda. Otherwise, Canada tends to be Eurocentric; much more so than the USA is. This is because of our more progressive, socialist bent.

South America (Latin America I mean) might as well be on another planet.......
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Thing is, I've got American friends. Seriously, I do. And while living overseas there have been times that I've avoided the Canadians at the pub and gone over and sat with the Americans.

I'm just talking about immediate socio-cultural affinities. They don't necessarily run that deep, and they don't mean that Canada and the U.S. are different planets the way that India and China, say, are.

You're pushing this New England and the Maritimes narrative too far. Someone from Boston is going to have a lot more in common with someone from New York than they will with someone from Halifax or St. John's at the socio-cultural affinity level. "Massholes" from Western Massachusetts are going to have virtually nothing in common with Newfoundland, but they will totally be in sync with the guys from New Jersey.

My guess is that people on the coast of Maine probably really do share a lot in common with coastal Maritimers, but you're extrapolating this too far.
I really don't think so.

It's not that I go to Boston and there's some kinship or friendship as there is Ireland, but there is a familiarity. Boston feels like it should be the largest city in whatever country St. John's is part of.

Toronto might as well be Cleveland for me. It's completely different. And whether people realize it or not... I've lived from here to Winnipeg. And the north-south seems much stronger. Most Winnipeggers know their way around Minneapolis. They couldn't even find St. John's on a map.
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 10:51 PM
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That's not true at all. We've gone over this before on this board.

Ontario has very little connection to New York or Michigan, save perhaps for economically with the car industry. They feel completely different.
Maybe to you, because you're so familiar with southern Ontario that the slight differences leap to your eyes, but having traveled through both countless times, they actually don't feel completely different at all. Your opinion on it is, IMO, to be taken with a huge grain of salt, the same way we should for, say, a German's opinion that (German) Switzerland and Upper Bavaria "feel completely different". To say things like that, one must not have traveled much (which is why I find it a bit weird, from you).
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Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 10:57 PM
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I think when we're talking about physical components (both built form and natural landscape), Canadian regions tend to look more similar to nearby US regions than to distant Canadian regions. But in terms of connectivity and cultural/philosophical affinity, the opposite. This is one case in which looks are deceiving despite the impression they may give.
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