Thread of Shibbolleths

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd agree if it was as widespread as poutine is, but I find maple syrup culture has only been superficially adopted. Most people outside Quebec and a few places in, say, Eastern Ontario, don't partake in the entire sugar shack cuisine and stuff like sugar pie, oreilles de crisse, ketchup aux fruits, etc. is not well-known to the average person whereas it's classic and iconic in areas which have large numbers of French Canadians.

We do in Atlantic Canada, for sure (sugar shacks and all that). I think there's a bit of it in New England too, though not very much.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

This definitely true. Even I, as a Canadian, assume "American" when I hear someone speaking like I do. It's a numbers thing and I'm almost always right.

Sometimes you will encounter someone who, upon learning that you're Canadian, will draw on some "they don't like it when you think that"-type knowledge and apologize in an exaggerated way. Then I have to reassure them, also in an exaggerated way, that it's not a problem, that we know we sound the same and use the same expressions, that I have no problem with it – all in the effort to not be "one of those Canadians".

Al lot of my being Canadian involves efforts not to be one of those Canadians. Compared to meeting Anglo Canadians, Americans honestly provide 90% of the reminds-me-of-home goodness with none of the risks involving Quebec talk, Canada-is-better-than-America talk or anything like that. I honestly find a lot of our "national conversation" to be night-ruining.

It's pretty true as well that a Québécois wouldn't really stand out (someone123's point, with which I wanted to agree) until they opened their mouth. As soon as that happens, though, we Québécois (unlike you Anglo Canadians) will instantly recognize a fellow...countryman? (for lack of a better word -- I know we're still all Canadians.)

We have a pretty damn epic (in the sense that it's almost too perfect) family anecdote that I will always recall that happened back in 1997 during a family trip in southern Mexico (with dad, mom and my sis). My dad is French, is a very educated and cultured individual, and though he's spent most of his life in Québec, he often kinda looks down on a certain type of typical unrefined Québécois. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Well, we were at this cliff near Acapulco where divers dive, an event that attracted lots of people, including plenty of tourists, and he pointed out a middle-aged couple somewhere in the crowd saying "don't you agree these two really look like stereotypical -- he means this in a bad way -- Québécois?" Out of curiosity, we got closer and discreetly tried to wait to see if they'd speak. After a while of spying, the first words spoken by one of them were directed to the other and were something like "là là câlisse, bla bla..." (I don't recall the exact words, but really a thick Quebec accent with a really high sacres/other words ratio.)

We found that priceless, and I was really impressed by dad's finely-tuned Québécois-dar.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's pretty true as well that a Québécois wouldn't really stand out (someone123's point, with which I wanted to agree) until they opened their mouth. As soon as that happens, though, we Québécois (unlike you Anglo Canadians) will instantly recognize a fellow...countryman? (for lack of a better word -- I know we're still all Canadians.)

We have a pretty damn epic anecdote that I will always recall that happened in our family back in 1997 during a family trip in southern Mexico (with dad, mom and my sis). My dad is French, is a very educated and cultured individual, and though he's spent most of his life in Québec, he often kinda looks down on a certain type of typical unrefined Québécois. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Well, we were at this cliff near Acapulco where divers dive, an event that attracted lots of people, including plenty of tourists, and he pointed out a middle-aged couple somewhere in the crowd saying "don't you agree these two really look like stereotypical -- he means this in a bad way -- Québécois?" Out of curiosity, we got closer and discreetly tried to wait to see if they'd speak. After a while of spying, the first words spoken by one of them were directed to the other and were something like "là là câlisse, bla bla..." (I don't recall the exact words, but really a thick Quebec accent with a really high sacres/other words ratio.)

We found that priceless, and I was really impressed by dad's finely-tuned Québécois-dar.

redneck Elvis Gratton style .

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's pretty true as well that a Québécois wouldn't really stand out (someone123's point, with which I wanted to agree) until they opened their mouth. As soon as that happens, though, we Québécois (unlike you Anglo Canadians) will instantly recognize a fellow...countryman? (for lack of a better word -- I know we're still all Canadians.)

...

We found that priceless, and I was really impressed by dad's finely-tuned Québécois-dar.

There's a big difference though between the "dog whistle" characteristics that you will pick up if you've been around a group of people a lot and the sort of rough outsider impressions that cause Canadians to be misidentified as American in other parts of the world. I have a bunch of similar anecdotes about figuring out that people are from Atlantic Canada (or the Maritimes, or NS specifically) in other parts of the world, or that cultural products are from there. But figuring people out in those situations came from distinctions that people outside of the region are unaware of.

(Although, when it comes to Atlantic Canada, the Maritimes, or NS, the accents really aren't that subtle. The difference between just about any NS or MA accent would be obvious to most Canadians, and most Canadians upon landing in the Halifax airport are immediately going to start hearing what sounds to them like accents. Often when they find somebody from there has "no accent" they're talking about a person who's lived outside of the region for a long period of time, or just moved there from places like Ontario. Americans notice the accents too.)

What distinguishes heavy accents and language is that they're really easy to pick out, although like I suggested even that depends on familiarity. Lots of English speakers can't tell different European languages apart. Spanish is spoken in a huge chunk of the world and lots of people can't tell Spanish accents apart either, even though if you know what to listen for it's very obvious if somebody is from Guadalajara vs. Havana vs. Barcelona. It's Canadian insecurity that turns this into a big deal.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's pretty true as well that a Québécois wouldn't really stand out (someone123's point, with which I wanted to agree) until they opened their mouth. As soon as that happens, though, we Québécois (unlike you Anglo Canadians) will instantly recognize a fellow...countryman? (for lack of a better word -- I know we're still all Canadians.)

We have a pretty damn epic (in the sense that it's almost too perfect) family anecdote that I will always recall that happened back in 1997 during a family trip in southern Mexico (with dad, mom and my sis). My dad is French, is a very educated and cultured individual, and though he's spent most of his life in Québec, he often kinda looks down on a certain type of typical unrefined Québécois. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Well, we were at this cliff near Acapulco where divers dive, an event that attracted lots of people, including plenty of tourists, and he pointed out a middle-aged couple somewhere in the crowd saying "don't you agree these two really look like stereotypical -- he means this in a bad way -- Québécois?" Out of curiosity, we got closer and discreetly tried to wait to see if they'd speak. After a while of spying, the first words spoken by one of them were directed to the other and were something like "là là câlisse, bla bla..." (I don't recall the exact words, but really a thick Quebec accent with a really high sacres/other words ratio.)

We found that priceless, and I was really impressed by dad's finely-tuned Québécois-dar.

Anyone who has had the misfortune of spending a few days at a three-star all-inclusive resort in Mexico or the Caribbean has witnessed these people in their natural holiday environment. It is not pretty. Not that the English speaking counterparts are much better - and I think they hold their liquor less well.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Have the Québécois posters on here ever heard of same? I have always been curious as to why young Québécois would travel soooo far west to the southern Okanagan Valley to pick fruit every summer... as it is quite a long haul. The orchards in the Niagara region are a helluva lot closer.

(...)

In any event, again, have Québécois posters on here ever heard of same and can provide some insight? Frankly, over the years, have never understood same myself. Perhaps just looking for adventure afar? It is just kinda unique IMHO:

Ya received already a few answers but I'll say the same thing as they did... it's wanderlust, which is very natural at that age.

The West is far away, much more exotic than Ontario next door, and you don't need a passport or a visa, you can move and immediately work for minimum wage legally.

I have several friends who did that... As was said, I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't know someone who went to pick fruit in the Okanagan for adventure as a young adult taking a sabbatical time before choosing what career path to take.

There's even one of them who went by riding (sneaking on) on merchandise trains all the way through Northern Ontario and the Prairies... Got a bit more "adventure" than most

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

There's a big difference though between the "dog whistle" characteristics that you will pick up if you've been around a group of people a lot and the sort of rough outsider impressions that cause Canadians to be misidentified as American in other parts of the world. I have a bunch of similar anecdotes about figuring out that people are from Atlantic Canada (or the Maritimes, or NS specifically) in other parts of the world, or that cultural products are from there. But figuring people out in those situations came from distinctions that people outside of the region are unaware of.

(Although, when it comes to Atlantic Canada, the Maritimes, or NS, the accents really aren't that subtle. The difference between just about any NS or MA accent would be obvious to most Canadians, and most Canadians upon landing in the Halifax airport are immediately going to start hearing what sounds to them like accents. Often when they find somebody from there has "no accent" they're talking about a person who's lived outside of the region for a long period of time, or just moved there from places like Ontario. Americans notice the accents too.)

What distinguishes heavy accents and language is that they're really easy to pick out, although like I suggested even that depends on familiarity. Lots of English speakers can't tell different European languages apart. Spanish is spoken in a huge chunk of the world and lots of people can't tell Spanish accents apart either, even though if you know what to listen for it's very obvious if somebody is from Guadalajara vs. Havana vs. Barcelona. It's Canadian insecurity that turns this into a big deal.

To illustrate this quite evocatively, to the vast majority of Frenchmen, both the Québécois accent and an Acadian accent from New Brunswick or a Franco-Ontarian accent sound pretty much the same. Whereas to us the difference is immediately obvious.

I think people who are not "insiders" tend to hone in on the similarities in related accents, whereas insiders do the opposite and focus on the differences - even if they are minor.

I tend to believe that are "accent families". North American English is an accent family in opposition to what I might call the "Commonwealth English accent family" which includes England, South African anglos, Australians, Kiwis, etc.

In French there most definitely is also a North American accent family that includes all Canadian francophones as well as Franco-Americans in the northeast and also Cajuns in Louisiana. We don't all speak the same by any stretch but there are certain things we say the same or expressions we use that we'd all "get" and that the French would not.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Good post. I just wanted to point out regarding the last sentence that this latest SSP Canada foray on the topic was not triggered by a francophone, nor a poster from Quebec.

No accusations implied there. I'm simply pointing out that the differences between English Canada and the US appear all the more subtle because it is starkly contrasted with the rather large differences between French Canada and the US/English Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's pretty true as well that a Québécois wouldn't really stand out (someone123's point, with which I wanted to agree) until they opened their mouth. As soon as that happens, though, we Québécois (unlike you Anglo Canadians) will instantly recognize a fellow...countryman? (for lack of a better word -- I know we're still all Canadians.)

We have a pretty damn epic (in the sense that it's almost too perfect) family anecdote that I will always recall that happened back in 1997 during a family trip in southern Mexico (with dad, mom and my sis). My dad is French, is a very educated and cultured individual, and though he's spent most of his life in Québec, he often kinda looks down on a certain type of typical unrefined Québécois. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Well, we were at this cliff near Acapulco where divers dive, an event that attracted lots of people, including plenty of tourists, and he pointed out a middle-aged couple somewhere in the crowd saying "don't you agree these two really look like stereotypical -- he means this in a bad way -- Québécois?" Out of curiosity, we got closer and discreetly tried to wait to see if they'd speak. After a while of spying, the first words spoken by one of them were directed to the other and were something like "là là câlisse, bla bla..." (I don't recall the exact words, but really a thick Quebec accent with a really high sacres/other words ratio.)

We found that priceless, and I was really impressed by dad's finely-tuned Québécois-dar.

I like to play spot-the-Québécois and spot-the-Ontarian in the area where I live. (I actually played it all weekend, since I was at an event for my kids' activities that brought together various clubs from both Quebec and Ontario.)

Anyway, I do pretty well at the game as can some of my friends. But some people I know are just dumbfounded that we do this, and think everyone looks the same.

I mean, the "middle" looks the same in much of the western world. It's the outliers that allow us to play our little silly game.

I mean, there are very, very few French Canadians who look like, say, Rob Ford. (Not talking about the obesity at all BTW.)

On the other hand, someone like speedskater Charles Hamelin looks very, very French Canadians like almost no Anglo-Canadians would. He could be a coureur de bois from New France.



Same goes for this actor:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ugLRCxTIqYY/hqdefault.jpg

Or this singer:



If I was walking down the street in Moscow and ran into someone who looked like that, I might actually take a risk and address them in French before they even said a word!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

No accusations implied there. I'm simply pointing out that the differences between English Canada and the US appear all the more subtle because it is starkly contrasted with the rather large differences between French Canada and the US/English Canada.

I know you weren't accusing. Just a pre-emptive strike against those who might!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

For immigrants crossing the Pacific, Seattle might be a more direct competitor than Montreal.

I doubt that even among potential immigrants around the world, that there is as much awareness of the subleties of the Canada-USA difference than we on SSP Canada seem to think there is.

And when there is some awareness of the differences between the two countries, it doesn't always work as overwhelmingly in Canada's favour as some might believe.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's pretty true as well that a Québécois wouldn't really stand out (someone123's point, with which I wanted to agree) until they opened their mouth. As soon as that happens, though, we Québécois (unlike you Anglo Canadians) will instantly recognize a fellow...countryman? (for lack of a better word -- I know we're still all Canadians.)

That's true for us as well - it's largely how we find each other when abroad.

Ayreonaut's friend E. was born and raised in Ontario. She lived here in St. John's for only a few months and we hung out all the time. She picked up so much of the accent that to this day (she's been back in Ontario forever) she still keeps constantly meeting Newfoundlanders who approach her and ask what part of the island she's from.

I've never seen someone adapt so quickly. She wasn't even trying.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Less constitutional freedoms. No free speech in Canada. No right to carry. etc. It goes on from there but those are big ones. Frankly I find Canada pretty repressive. I mean if you want to see freedom come to my birth country of Czech Republic, there you have real freedom (though its being slowly eroded by Brussels over the past 10 years).

Maybe try giving the constitution a read through, as free speech is guaranteed (though everything is subject to the reasonable limits clause).

Canada is considered one of the freest countries on the planet.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Hey, there's the reformulation of Occam's razor: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" (not that I am a bit fan of Christopher Hitchens, but I think the idea has some merit, because otherwise you can be fooled into believing just about anything). What about if you have just a shred of evidence that is your personal opinion? Can it therefore be dismissed with a similar personal opinion from somebody else? If so, "you are wrong" could be a good rebuttal; it does the job in a lot fewer words.

We are never going to get anywhere arguing over individual opinions of whether or not two places are culturally similar or different. But I can name some important cultural differences between Canada and the US. These apply to pretty much anywhere in the two countries. One difference is that average or poorer people in Canada tend to be much better off, because they are supported by stronger social programs (cheaper tuition, health care), and a more progressive tax system. Conversely wealthy Americans tend to be much wealthier and seem to me to be much more segregated from the rest of society. Go compare a US inner city with a gated golf compound if you want to see a cultural difference! The impact of that difference makes things like accents and pop music seem pretty trivial.

Not sure if it's really "culture" (for which the definitions vary) but certainly (Anglo-)Canada is different from the U.S. in terms of ethos and mindset. On this I will agree.

[MolsonExport]

Pauline Julien is unmistakingly French-Canadian.

As an Anglo that worked for years serving the public in a mixed (French-English) customer-base environment, I got very skilled at picking out the Francos from the Anglos. The law obliged me to first greet all customers in French first, but I was able to better anticipate conversations that would follow based on the discriminant function (re: statistical terminology) that my brain constructed. My categorization success was probably 95% or higher.

RoFo could only be an Anglo-Canadian (although he doesn't look much at all like a typical Anglo-Quebecker), or just by looks, some Midwesterner from the United States.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

That's true for us as well - it's largely how we find each other when abroad.

Ayreonaut's friend E. was born and raised in Ontario. She lived here in St. John's for only a few months and we hung out all the time. She picked up so much of the accent that to this day (she's been back in Ontario forever) she still keeps constantly meeting Newfoundlanders who approach her and ask what part of the island she's from.

I've never seen someone adapt so quickly. She wasn't even trying.

I take it that she wasn't from Eastern Ontario? There are folks in certain parts (eg Rideau lakes area) who sound like Newfoundlanders, and for the same reasons - heavy Irish heritage, geographic isolation and "social/economic challenges".

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I like to play spot-the-Québécois and spot-the-Ontarian in the area where I live. (I actually played it all weekend, since I was at an event for my kids' activities that brought together various clubs from both Quebec and Ontario.)

Anyway, I do pretty well at the game as can some of my friends. But some people I know are just dumbfounded that we do this, and think everyone looks the same.

I mean, the "middle" looks the same in much of the western world. It's the outliers that allow us to play our little silly game.

I mean, there are very, very few French Canadians who look like, say, Rob Ford. (Not talking about the obesity at all BTW.)

On the other hand, someone like speedskater Charles Hamelin looks very, very French Canadians like almost no Anglo-Canadians would. He could be a coureur de bois from New France.



...

If I was walking down the street in Moscow and ran into someone who looked like that, I might actually take a risk and address them in French before they even said a word!

I'd put Roy Dupuis, Guy Lepage and Roch Voisine (impossibly pretty, so maybe doesn't count) in that recognizable face group. A lot of French with a soupcon of aboriginal somewhere back in time. Another recognizable face type can be seen with Gilles Vigneault and that comic TV guy who's name I can never remember but who used to have his guests come on stage in a sort of lounge chair rollercoaster.

[SignalHillHiker]

I love it.

Not as far as I know. She's "from" TO but I think her family is originally from Barrie. She weekends in Barrie fairly often, in any event.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I'd put Roy Dupuis, Guy Lepage and Roch Voisine (impossibly pretty, so maybe doesn't count) in that recognizable face group. A lot of French with a soupcon of aboriginal somewhere back in time. Another recognizable face type can be seen with Gilles Vigneault and that comic TV guy who's name I can never remember but who used to have his guests come on stage in a sort of lounge chair rollercoaster.

That would be Marc Labrèche (see below). BTW I got the Charles Hamelin idea from you.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Pauline Julien is unmistakingly French-Canadian.

As an Anglo that worked for years serving the public in a mixed (French-English) customer-base environment, I got very skilled at picking out the Francos from the Anglos. The law obliged me to first greet all customers in French first, but I was able to better anticipate conversations that would follow based on the discriminant function (re: statistical terminology) that my brain constructed. My categorization success was probably 95% or higher.

RoFo could only be an Anglo-Canadian (although he doesn't look much at all like a typical Anglo-Quebecker), or just by looks, some Midwesterner from the United States.

Good story. I also find that there are differences in dress too, although not so much in Montreal where people dress fairly similarly regardless of language group.

They are more visible IMO in the rest of the country though. Even in Ottawa vs. Gatineau.

For example, few French Canadians would dress like Michael Moore in this picture:



Or like this lady:



On the other hand, this is not a style you will typically see on English Canadians, but it's very common among French Canadians:



Of course, there are people who dress like this in Ottawa and the GTA, but they don't generally have their family roots in the British Isles.