Canadian ethnicity, immigration, housing etc.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A lot of (most?) Armenians actually consider themselves to be "European".

White, not necessarily European. Most Israelis would consider themselves white I suspect.

[Docere]

Yes. Israeli origin isn't large enough for me to get those figures. Many would write "Jewish" I suspect or in some cases the country in which their families came from before moving to Israel.

[mistercorporate]

I actually don't consider Greeks, Jews, Armenians, Albanians, Sicilians, Turks and Portuguese to be white, but yeah, it's more efficient to lump all multi-generational Europeans in the same basket I guess.

[Acajack]

I don't actually care much at all about this stuff, but it *is* fun to discuss...

[Docere]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I actually don't consider Greeks, Jews, Armenians, Albanians, Sicilians, Turks and Portuguese to be white, but yeah, it's more efficient to lump all multi-generational Europeans in the same basket I guess.

So back to the definiton of 100 years ago?

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I actually don't consider Greeks, Jews, Armenians, Albanians, Sicilians, Turks and Portuguese to be white, but yeah, it's more efficient to lump all multi-generational Europeans in the same basket I guess.

But the definition of "white" says nothing about multi-generational status. An Irish Newfoundlander with family on the island for centuries, an Israeli immigrant living in a Toronto suburb, and a Brit who has only been in the country a short amount of time studying as an international student, all get put into one category.

Also, it's interesting that Canada is far less explicit than the US about "white" as a label but it is more implied by being "not a visible minority" and not aboriginal. Whereas, in the US, it seems that there's a much more distinct "White American" identity that's different from "white ethnic" like Italian-American, Irish-American etc.

In Canada there's no generic "white Canadian identity" that either includes both English and French "old stock" charter groups or other multigenerational white Canadian groups (be they Ukrainian homesteaders or Germans etc.) that "assimilated", to the exclusion of non-whites or recent immigrant whites.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

But the definition of "white" says nothing about multi-generational status. An Irish Newfoundlander with family on the island for centuries, an Israeli immigrant living in a Toronto suburb, and a Brit who has only been in the country a short amount of time studying as an international student, all get put into one category.

Also, it's interesting that Canada is far less explicit than the US about "white" as a label but it is more implied by being "not a visible minority" and not aboriginal. Whereas, in the US, it seems that there's a much more distinct "White American" identity that's different from "white ethnic" like Italian-American, Irish-American etc.

In Canada there's no generic "white Canadian identity" that either includes both English and French "old stock" charter groups or other multigenerational white Canadian groups (be they Ukrainian homesteaders or Germans etc.) that "assimilated", to the exclusion of non-whites or recent immigrant whites.

I disagree. My experience with who's considered white has always seemed to be based on skin colour, and include Jews, Italians, Greeks, etc.

[1overcosc]

In the Mediterranean/Middle East region, skin colour is not cleanly divided between "European" and "Asian/African". There's plenty of Italians and Greeks who have darker skin than Turks and Iranians.

This woman is Turkish:



These women are Italian:



"European = White" and "Middle Eastern = Brown" is more of a cultural assignment than a physical one. Hence why so many Middle Eastern people are known to "pass" for "white".

Some Iranians and Afghans are quite fair skinned. And Jewish people, despite generally being fair skinned, have predominantly Middle Eastern ancestry (the average Eastern European Jew is about 70% ancient Israelite in ancestry).

It's interesting how uncomfortable these points make some people.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

From 2011 (2016 not available), share of selected Middle Eastern and North African groups identifying as visible minorities:

Afghan 96.1%
Iranian 82.4%
Iraqi 81.1%
Palestinian 79.3%
Egyptian 66.5%
Moroccan 65%
Algerian 63%
Syrian 53.7%
Lebanese 50.3%
Armenian 11.3%

VM identity seems very closely related to length of time in Canada and being Muslim. Armenians, Moroccan Jews and a lot of Arab Christians seem to see themselves as white.

What about Turks?

Afghanistan is often considered Central Asia or even South Asia, rather than the Middle East, but I wonder what people in the "-stans" like Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc. consider themselves as (West Asian?)

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

"European = White" and "Middle Eastern = Brown" is more of a cultural assignment than a physical one. Hence why so many Middle Eastern people are known to "pass" for "white".

Growing up in the Greater Toronto Area, in the 90s, "brown" as described by many of my classmates (sometimes in reference to themselves), usually meant someone who was South Asian, not Middle Eastern.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Growing up in the Greater Toronto Area, in the 90s, "brown" as described by many of my classmates (sometimes in reference to themselves), usually meant someone who was South Asian, not Middle Eastern.

I was gonna say the same thing, "brown" is South Asian in the language I grew up with. Middle Easterners don't really have a colour like that. A good friend of mine is from Syria, and she agreed, she doesn't really identify with one or the other.

I didn't realize "brown" meant Latin American in some places until Trump ran for president and all of a sudden it started appearing in the news a lot. Don't know what the typical usage is in Winnipeg, but I've talked about this with Latin American friends I've made here who strongly identify with "brown," while for me they also don't really have a colour I'd use.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I was gonna say the same thing, "brown" is South Asian in the language I grew up with. Middle Easterners don't really have a colour like that. A good friend of mine is from Syria, and she agreed, she doesn't really identify with one or the other.

I didn't realize "brown" meant Latin American in some places until Trump ran for president and all of a sudden it started appearing in the news a lot. Don't know what the typical usage is in Winnipeg, but I've talked about this with Latin American friends I've made here who strongly identify with "brown," while for me they also don't really have a colour I'd use.

Maybe "brown" meant Latin American in some parts of the US, because darker skinned Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, and Dominicans who were seen as "in between" the typical white and black Americans were the most common non-whites besides black Americans in many cities. Not all Latin Americans are dark skinned obviously (there's a diversity of origins among them, ranging from blond, European-descent to Afro-descended people to even Asian descent) but perhaps many of the Latin Americans that many other Americans saw immigrating the US might have been.

East and South Asian people, as well as Middle Easterners were probably less common in the US compared to these Latin American groups for much of US history and now.

While, by contrast, in Canada, the most common non-white group besides aboriginals has been Asians (especially in BC) for many decades now and back in the 20th century.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Maybe "brown" meant Latin American in some parts of the US, because darker skinned Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, and Dominicans who were seen as "in between" the typical white and black Americans were the most common non-whites besides black Americans in many cities.

East and South Asian people, as well as Middle Easterners were probably less common in the US compared to these Latin American groups for much of US history and now.

While, by contrast, in Canada, the most common non-white group besides aboriginals has been Asians (especially in BC) for many decades now and back in the 20th century.

For sure, it all depends on visibility. We have more South Asians than Latin Americans in Canada, so we use "brown" for the more visible one. Just as your earlier example about "Asian" meaning East Asian in Canada and South Asian in the UK.

[Docere]

Whille Arab and Iranian Americans organizations have lobbied for a Middle Eastern and North African category in the Census, the Census Bureau has decided not to add one in 2020.

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/29/58154...us-bureau-says

[Capsicum]

Looks like they will still be included in the "white" category, but the "white" category will possibly have more detailed boxes or options to write in, such as Polish, Italian etc.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/01/58233...-about-origins

[Docere]

There's also a variation in the degree identifying as non-white for Latin American groups.

Visible minority identification, 2011 NHS:

Salvadorean 87.4%
Colombian 81.6%
Peruvian 74.6%
Chilean 61.8%
Mexican 54.6%
Brazilian 40%

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

There's also a variation in the degree identifying as non-white for Latin American groups.

Visible minority identification, 2011 NHS:

Salvadorean 87.4%
Colombian 81.6%
Peruvian 74.6%
Chilean 61.8%
Mexican 54.6%
Brazilian 40%

A higher percentage of Latin American Canadians identify as non-white compared to Hispanic Americans (where it's about half)?

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

A higher percentage of Latin American Canadians identify as non-white compared to Hispanic Americans (where it's about half)?

Not really an "apples" comparison though. The US census has a race question and a Hispanic origin question. If they were combined I suspect there would be a lot fewer "white" responses.

I'm almost certain that the small Mexican population in Canada is much "whiter" than the Mexican American population.

[SignalHillHiker]

CBC profiled my neighbourhood, via the city's only black barbershop - at least as far as I am aware. It's one of three on that block.

A St. John's barbershop in an old, working-class neighbourhood is a face of how St. John's is changing

It’s in St. John’s, in Rabbitown, a working-class neighbourhood with a diverse and rapidly changing population — so diverse, in fact, it might surprise a lot of people who’ve lived in St. John’s all their lives.

...

When Gustavo Valoyes and Yaw Antei-Adjei decided a couple of years ago to open the 1949 Barber Shop — the name comes from the year Newfoundland and Labrador joined Canada — they saw a need for a shop in this residential area, located near both Memorial University and the city’s downtown strip.

Along the way, they’ve picked up many types of customers, from local students to new Canadians to players with the St. John’s Edge basketball team.

“Things have started growing and we are getting better,” Valoyes said.

“Every single culture comes here, so there are different views and thoughts. We speak about everything here.”

...

St. John’s has a population that is historically largely tied to Britain and Ireland. Canada’s youngest province historically doesn’t attract many newcomers to the country. According to data from Statistics Canada, only 0.2 per cent to 0.4 per cent of the immigrants who come to Canada each year settle here.

But while there have been some shifts that are small compared to the volume of immigrants who settle in places like Toronto and Vancouver, they are significant in a province with a population of just 528,000.

Temporary workers from countries including the Philippines and Jamaica have arrived to fill gaps, particularly in service sectors like fast food and nursing.

International student applications and admissions have increased in recent years for Memorial University. And the province’s only mosque has a growing membership that no longer fits comfortably into its building.

That means that people from places like Africa, India, Pakistan, and the Middle East, both in Rabbittown and throughout the St. John’s area, didn’t have a barbershop to meet their needs, said Valoyes.

The small shop, located on Mayor Avenue, now has a staff of four: Valoyes, who moved from Colombia to Canada in 2003; Antei-Adjei, originally from Ghana; Ricardo Onegas, also from Colombia; and Joana Smits, originally from Angola.

...

Even in his short time in St. John’s, Onegas has noticed Rabbittown become increasingly diverse.

Initially their clientele were largely from Colombia and a few African countries, he said, but now there are more from other places: the Philippines, South Africa, the U.S.

...

On that map with all the pins are quite a few from the Goulds, a largely rural area in the south of St. John’s … not exactly walking distance.

Valoyes said they’re the result of a new customer who passed by the shop, popped in, and was happy with the result.

“One guy came here, I guess he was driving by, he come from the car, and he liked it,” Valoyes said. “He went there and then his friends start coming out here and now we have the Goulds, a big clientele from the Goulds.”

The 1949 Barber Shop doesn’t do much traditional advertising, but that’s the great thing about cutting hair: whether your customers are new arrivals from around the corner, or longtime locals who live a few neighbourhoods over, the result goes where they do.

“You usually run your advert on people’s hair. So if you cut one person, that person takes it everywhere that they go. People see it, of course, and ask, where did you get this,” Antei-Adjei said.

“Whatever that we do, we make sure we put in our best so that it will bring more clients, and that’s happening.”

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/long...r-shop-stjohns

[1overcosc]

This weekend I went back to my hometown of Embrun (an exurb of Ottawa) for a visit. I do every once in a while. The place might as well be the poster child for assimilation of official language minorities in Canada.

The area is historically mostly Franco-Ontarian but that is rapidly changing. Over the last 20 years the francophone percentage has fallen from about 80% to 50% and the average age of the francophone population is now over 10 years higher, with close to 65% of school age children now being anglophone.

Businesses are increasingly operating in English-only. The local Subway restaurant renovated their interior last year, and now the menu board is in English only. In the grocery store, while all the product labels were bilingual, handwritten things (like the little chalkboards where the daily fish selection at the seafood counter is written, for example) were all written in English only. The historically Franco-Ontarian coopérative agricole which runs the store now brands itself as "Co-op Embrun" and its annual meetings are now conducted primarily in English. Even the ads outside the town's caisse populaire were in English only when I last checked.

This transition started when I was in middle school, and at the time, the francophone population reacted quite angrily with lots of protests against businesses that lacked francophone signage and service. Now, that has all quieted down and the growing dominance of English seems to be accepted by everyone.