Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Kisai

This isn't likely because it's redundant with Main Street/Pacific Central station which is the terminus for Amtrak/BNSF. Why park the train 2 minutes away from it's terminus? Where is it going to go? It's not double-tracked, so it has exactly the same problem the WCE does, so people coming into Vancouver would leave Pacific Central station anyway to take the Skytrain the rest of the way to downtown.

One could make the argument that the Skytrain isn't close enough to Pacific Central, but it is. It's literately accross the park. It would be easier to justify Pacific Central buying the neighboring property between it and the Skytrain tracks just to build an elevated covered access path that doesn't go through the park.

Likewise why not just get on the Skytrain at Scott Road then.

If you're going to build a commuter rail, it needs to be in places where people both live and work. If you're going to spend 90 minutes on a train you better not have have to spend another 30 minutes getting to or from it.

At some point we just need to realize that the rails were originally built to service industrial areas, and unless you want to destroy more industrial areas with development, you not going to be able to run any usable commuter rail through them. The WCE exists because the north arm port traffic is effectively limited by the lions gate bridge, so the size and quantity of cargo entering or leaving is capped right now, but they are still expanding. If they expand too much, that will make the WCE cost more to get access to the CPR line. Translink will never, ever be able to purchase that line without Port Metro deciding to get rid of the cargo terminals, and that is unlikely.

Translink can however likely could purchase all of BNSF's assets in Vancouver and Burnaby, and all of CN's assets (Arbutus, Marpole, and whatever else is left before the rail bridge in New West.) South of the Fraser however, it's not likely anything can be purchased but the SRY (Interurban.)

So most of these assets aren't terribly useful since they all run along industrial area, and the cities already lack industrial spaces, so redevelopment would be opposed.

The best option remains, if anything at all is built between the Fraser Valley, it terminates in Langley or Surrey, depending if the Skytrain Expo line is extended to Langley or not. If it's not extended, then the only option is the interurban and terminating at Scott Road. If it the Skytrain is extended then around Fraser Hwy/Production Way would be where the terminus could be built. That would then give an option of a bi-directional WCE service between Langley City and Newton, Cloverdale, and Abbortsford or Chilliwack.

If you take the Skytrain out of the equation. Then there is really no point at all, even though people might consider commuting from Chilliwack to Langley, they would likely not want to commute all the way into Surrey or Vancouver because that would be a 3 or 4 hour trip.

We could rezone the unused 'suburban' designation land in South Langley, Derby Reach (after ALR removal- though only ~25% is actually farmed), the Salmon River Highlands, or the Maple Ridge Highlands to Industrial/Mixed Employment.

Of course, the issue is you have even less land for homes now, but those can densify- industry for the most part, can't.

Though it's probably better to use that land to sastify existing/future demand, instead of to remove industry in the inner city.

WCE should definitely get its own dedicated track. Evergreen Line and future development in Maple Ridge will only increase it's usage.

Even if it's just from Maple Ridge Station to Waterfront- it would allow expansion of the network to build the stations at Albion, East Hastings, and PNE...

Since I would anticipate most buses on or near Hastings are looking to head to PNE during the summer, it would be a 'peak service' for the HOV/BRT there- holding off the Hastings Skytrain until we get proper funding.


And I'd think it would cost the same cost to dual track than to buy out rail lines- even if it doesn't, the extra road traffic and GHGs from forcing all of that freight onto trucks isn't appealing.

Even though they're supposed to service industrial zones, the lines are still useful for commuters that just want to speed from Point A to B, or to service suburbs.

My ideal line would go from Waterfront Station or Pacific Central to Abbostford via the old Olympic Line, Artubus, Marine Way (transfer to Skytrain Station), Columbia (transfer to Skytrain), via a new replacement Westminister Bridge (3 Lanes) to Scott Road (transfer to Skytrain, then all the way on the SRY, connecting to Langley, Cloverdale, North Delta, Newton Loop, and TWU on the way.
Another one going on the BNSF line along Lougheed to Waterfront with a stop at Lougheed Town Central, and Commerical-Broadway- only to reduce the total amount of transfers. Otherwise, just Waterfront. Though if that would be better than BRT on Trans-Canada is a big question- even with fewer transfers.

Plus, it duplicates the underused Millennium Line.


None of these lines are 'crowded' and 'essential', unlike CP, so it might actually be workable without dual tracks (at least in Phase 1).

They could raise Extra $$$ from CN, VIA, and BNSF for the new Westminister Bridge, looks like it would be a win-win anyways.

The issue is connecting the False Creek Spur to Artubus and Pacific Central- it would have to destroy at least one City Block of housing in the process.

Oh, and turning Forest Knolls and the north Salmon River Highlands into a University town is


Though if they extend it to Abbostford and the US border, that would also likely increase ridership.... is that under consideration?

Originally Posted by Kisai

It's already astronomical.



This is what I mean, Main street and Commercial-Broadway are 3 minutes apart, there is no point building a station here.



Pacific Central station is the equivalent of Union Station in Toronto, because that is where the passenger rail terminals converge.




Waterfront Station is what it is because that's where CPR Pier B, C and D were. Pier D burned down 70+ years ago and that is where the Seabus terminal is now. Pier B/C is Canada Place which is still a cruise ship terminal.



You are not saving any time by transferring at Commercial-Broadway because the trains are 3 minutes apart, while it would take only 12 minutes to stay on the Skytrain. If you just wait 3 minutes and get off the commuter rail, you would wait another 3 minutes just to get on the Skytrain to get 9 minutes downtown. So there's no point in having it at all. If on the other hand someone is coming from Mission, they are not going to want to get off the train and wait for the Skytrain if they are heading all the way downtown anyway:



It's actually 6 minutes longer to take the Skytrain because it has to take a longer way around (Expo Line) currently along with a half hour bus ride to get to the Expo line. When the Evergreen segment opens that will make people coming from outside of Coquitlam prefer to stay on the WCE because they will not have to transfer twice to get to the exact same destination.

If Translink ever wanted to save costs with CP, they could also remove the WCE segment between Coquitlam and Waterfront entirely. That would however require getting space to park the trains somewhere. The logistics of moving the trains around favors not having to double-back on the same rails, so if the Skytrain is extended to Port Coquitlam you might see the suggestion of eliminating the WCE between Coquitlam and Waterfront floated. Or moving the terminus to the Via/Amtrak station, or even building a WCE station at Braid station and then Riverview would have a way to get there and sending the WCE from Port Coquitlam to Pacific Central to avoid going along the congested Waterfront. Translink likely could even buy the BNSF tracks north of New West and still have Amtrack/Via use them for the two times a day they are used by Amtrack and once a month by Via.

I actually don't know off hand what, or if, BNSF uses the rails north of New West for cargo. Their own website doesn't actually show what ports they deliver to (coal map), which to me at least is suggestive that "it depends" on what is being delivered. I know when I worked at Still Creek Drive I would see trains occasionally, but I'm pretty sure those were Amtrak given I worked at night and that is when the Amtrack Cascades from Seattle comes in.

It seems like BNSF only uses the tracks north of New West if a customer specifically wants to export Coal or Vehicles. Vancouver is not on their Intermodal map.

It's shared with VIA/Amtrack, and CN. What does CN use it for, other than to store and service Rail cars? And BNSF would use the Stratchona line to export, or is it just to service the industry nearby?

If it's that underused, then pushing WCE 2.0 through from Columbia Station should be fairly cheap. Or I would think.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Kisai

I doubt there are any. The modus operandi of the half dozen people who want to revive the interurban still hinges on that bottleneck at New West, and since there are no interurban tracks/SRY beyond Surrey that is where it would have to terminate if it were to be like WCE. But Surrey has no place for a train terminus, especially if they build that LRT. New tracks would have to be built parallel to the Alex Fraser Bridge, and then navigate two more swing bridges. Then it could go all the way up Arbutus. It's a whole lot of nowhere industrial land between New West and Arbutus. There would be a lot of gnashing of teeth if the industrial areas were again bought up and redeveloped so I don't see anything, be it LRT or Commuter rail going through that area.

So that gives three scenarios:
- Commuter rail terminates at Surrey, anyone going into Vancouver takes the Skytrain at Scott Road, requires building a rail station and acquiring land.
- Commuter rail crosses the river at NW (either with a new bridge or the congested existing bridge) and terminates at Main street, drawing conflict between Via/Amtrak's use of facilities and rail ROW. But ultimately the cheapest solution.
- Commuter rail crosses the river at NW and goes along the Marpole/Arbutus ROW and terminates at Olympic Village (but there is nowhere to park trains except at that empty space between Cambie and the Olympic Village dog park.

Incidentally the Arbutus rail has been deleted from google maps.

The cheapest solution of course is to do nothing since there is nothing for commuter rail to service in Surrey or in New West/Burnaby/Vancouver. It's all industrial until you get to Sullivan station (museum), and then it's all industrial areas again until you get out of both Surrey and Langley.

Like this is why an LRT shouldn't be built down Fraser Highway, because it makes more sense to reuse the interurban ROW to connect Surrey and Langley with an LRT/commuter rail/anything, but it only services industrial areas, and there's no place to park trains for either in Surrey.

So a commuter rail from Chilliwack really has no place to take people unless it's only servicing industrial areas (which is similar to the area between Mission and Coquitlam.)

Surrey would of course be incredibly short-sighted and still build their LRT to terminate at Newton and then want to connect it to the SRY there or build a station at King George/64th to transfer to a commuter rail.

Nowhere, except Colverdale, Newton, Langley City, and Kennedy Heights.
It may take detours through industrial land, but it still hits most of the big centres SoF. (except Surrey Central and Guildford, but those can easily be serviced with Skytrain.)

Originally Posted by Bdawe

because existing rail lines don't go to Surrey Central. Nor do good rights of way. Rail lines do go downtown, and downtown is, more than anywhere else, the sort of place that lots of people want to go and lots of people don't really want to drive to.

I think we should get the idea of a West-Coast-Express-style service out of our heads. There are no routes that make sense left that don't require a considerable investment, and it's simply not worth a whole lot of investment to have peak-oriented, mono-directional, infrequent stop, heavy locomotive-hauled trains.

If we're talking then about something that's going to require any serious investment, we should be talking about small multiple-unit trains that go both ways, all day, provided rapid transit service over railways for cheaper than alternatives rather than as a commuter shuttle. This is not the sort of service that runs between Waterfront and Mission.

I think that there are two places where this sort of service *could* make sense with existing rights of way - the former V&LI interurban between New Westminster and Marpole. This line has few remaining freight customers, is fairly straight (thus can support fast speeds), serves development sites like the River District and better connects regional town centers, providing a more direct route between Coquitlam, Surrey, and New Westminster with Richmond by Skytrain connection. Freight could probably be handled at night or over specified times, and rolling stock could be done for cheap-ish with off-the-shelf DMU like the Trillium Line or eBart or at a higher investment (and assumed better frequency and lower operating costs) with electrified EMU or LRVs.

At the inflation-adjusted per kilometer cost of the Trillium Line in Ottawa, such a project would cost about $60 million, though it might be necessary to construct extra track east of Queensborough Bridge in order to bypass the freight yard, which would drive up costs.

This would plug a gap in our regional transit system, in a similar way that the Lougheed Branch of the Expo Line provides cross-regional connectivity, enable more town centre-town centre travel, and provided the travel times on the line of a century ago, would be considerably faster and more reliable than equivalent bus service (25 minutes New West-Marpole), and could be bundled with service over Arbutus and through to Port Coquitlam if such was ever desired.

I think there's actually less of a case for the Fraser Valley Line, however, let's look into it. I don't think you would ever want to go beyond Langley City. The line starts being out in the middle of nowhere and less direct for further destinations, to start. Assuming a new Fraser Bridge is out of the cards, that terminates us at Scott Road, which will require a bit of new right of way to be a convenient connection. This skips Surrey Central, but Surrey Central is of far more paper importance than actual importance (fun fact, Langley City has more jobs) and the connection at Scott Road or to the express bus at Newton enable access, while also enabling access to New Westminster, Metrotown, etc. You hit central areas on Scott Road, Newton, Cloverdale, and Langley City all in a direct-enough line.

To be most useful, you'd probably want to rebuild the line through Cloverdale, rather than the bypass and rebuild the old right of way into Langley City which appears to include a trail now. This might necessitate a short stretch of street running, but it's a not unreasonable trade off. You could build a new terminus in the Army-Navy parking lot. If this wasn't desired, you could use the Langley Bypass and build a terminal on one of the industrial spurs to gain access to the commercial area.

Now, Fraser Highway rapid transit is probably going to be built in some form. If it's the skytrain, I would be quite willing to believe that there just wouldn't be enough overhead traffic to make the interurban route viable, but remember the interurban hits Cloverdale, Newton, and Scott road while Fraser Highway doesn't. I suspect an at-grade LRT line on Fraser would be much less competition, but it still has a straighter route through more immediately residential areas.

At Trillium-line costs, that'd run about $90, though the necessary additional track construction would likely cost more than New West - Marpole. The point isn't that these lines would generate hundreds of thousands of riders, but that you could potentially generate respectable ridership for a given capital cost.

But the SRY hits major shopping districts. Rerouting the interurban from Langley Bypass would miss Willowbrook Shopping Centre (important for being the only such in Langley) and pass right through the City Centre... literally, as in it would require demolishing Timms Community Centre.

The streets are too busy as well, so we'll have to just stick with Langley Bypass. I'd rather see the $$$ tunnelling used for the new Westminister Bridge. It's the one big bottleneck that MUST be addressed before anything else for these plans. The rail lines themselves have little congestion.

Is there any way we could tack it onto Pautello's expansion?

Originally Posted by Bdawe

For starters, I don't think that the interurban is useful for passenger travel beyond Langley City. I'm certainly not talking about Abbotsford or Chilliwack

Getting that out of the way, freeway transit tends to suck. Why does it tend to suck? Because hardly anyone wants to live or work by the side of the freeway . Highways work for car travel because the first and last mile is relatively simple, but for transit, where the first and last mile is relatively difficult, the fact that they repel development means that freeway transit is going to be nearly entirely dependent on transfer traffic or park-and-ride traffic - thin gruel for an effective system. You can look at all the rail lines build down the medians or along the flanks of freeways in the US and the disappointing ridership that goes along with them.

Now, it might very well be that the only functional right of way to get service out to Abbotsford and Chilliwack, especially from Langley and Surrey, is going to be by the highway. Perhaps it is the case that bus transportation will always meet the demands of the corridor, but that's a different situation than the interurban route west of Langley City

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Well, the good reason to not terminate at Waterfront is that 1) as long as there are so many grade crossings on the Burrard Inlet line, it will remain an 8 mph line. 2) as long as the junction with the CP line is configured as it is currently, you can't join the CP line without fouling all three tracks, and then having to cross all the way over to the other side of the tracks again to get to station. This is why there has been relatively sparse traffic through the Burrard Inlet Line or the Cut since co-production.

With repspect to the grandview cut, how many trains do you think we'd be squeezing through there to necessitate more than two tracks?

The main overpasses required is the one on Prior St. and Powell St. Pender St. E, Union, Glen, Raymur, Cordova, and Parker could conceivably be closed off for good where it meets the rail. Or just make two stations- one to VCC-Clark (there is space there, but not at Commerical-Broadway), and one at Pacific Central.

And CN from Surrey Central to Langley City via Fort Langley could work if you want a high speed line- just build a new track into the Fraser River, onto the tidal 'beach' by filling it with concrete bricks. Though, again, SRY is probably a better start, since CN down here doesn't hit any important areas except Fort Langley/TWU- which has 0 room for desification or expansion...

Though I guess Forest Knolls, Walnut Grove, and Port Mann have some space.

[fredinno]

BTW, one last thing, is there any plans for connecting the 'mixed use jobs district' in South Surrey with Rail? Especially if it's expanded into Langley- it would be a good place to fit in more industry away from City Centres, and it's not in the ALR.

I honestly think that future industrial zones will be in Maple Ridge, where land is plentiful and cheap (by Vancouver standards). Is it flat enough for it? The backup is Langley- the farms there were always fairly small by modern standards and underused- areas like Glen Valley and Derby Reach could become industrial zones while pushing cargo directly onto the River.

[twoNeurons]

The big advantage Commercial/Broadway has over Pacific Central for a rail station is easy transfers.

The big disadvantage it has is that there's not much room for a proper station. Ultimately, I think you could accomplish something similar by having a commuter rail stop near Gilmore... or Rupert for connections to the Millennium Line.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

The big advantage Commercial/Broadway has over Pacific Central for a rail station is easy transfers.

The big disadvantage it has is that there's not much room for a proper station. Ultimately, I think you could accomplish something similar by having a commuter rail stop near Gilmore... or Rupert for connections to the Millennium Line.

Could you build it underground under the nearby streets?

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by fredinno

BTW, one last thing, is there any plans for connecting the 'mixed use jobs district' in South Surrey with Rail? Especially if it's expanded into Langley- it would be a good place to fit in more industry away from City Centres, and it's not in the ALR.

I honestly think that future industrial zones will be in Maple Ridge, where land is plentiful and cheap (by Vancouver standards). Is it flat enough for it? The backup is Langley- the farms there were always fairly small by modern standards and underused- areas like Glen Valley and Derby Reach could become industrial zones while pushing cargo directly onto the River.

There will be some gnashing of teeth if anything is removed from the ALR. The ALR exists because otherwise they would all be big-box stores. There is no reason to remove any property from the ALR short of infrastructure, by which should be accomplished by trading property back into the ALR from somewhere else.

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

The big advantage Commercial/Broadway has over Pacific Central for a rail station is easy transfers.

The big disadvantage it has is that there's not much room for a proper station. Ultimately, I think you could accomplish something similar by having a commuter rail stop near Gilmore... or Rupert for connections to the Millennium Line.

There will never be anything built in the cut. You're quite literately asking for the entire Commercial Drive section of the Skytrain line to be excavated out to build an underground rail station and siding that will serve nobody. This would never work when Pacific Central is the terminus and going to the Skytrain is less than a 3 minute walk.

Likewise Gilmore is an even longer distance on foot to the heavy-rail tracks than Pacific Central. This accomplishes nothing. The Sperling/Burnaby-Lake station is probably the closest Millennium line station to the tracks. Even then, unless you are commuting to the District of North Vancouver (that is the one additional rail line that connects there) from Burnaby, it's still pointless.

The Millennium Line/Expo Line connection at Broadway/Commercial exists the way it does because they can't interline at that point without a Wye. In hindesight, they probably should have built one if they weren't going to continue the UBC subway, but they didn't, and that left open the door to continue the line all the way to UBC.

So no we all keep going in a bit of a circle here on trying to shoe-horn another commuter-rail option that doesn't do anything to improve the transit system.

There's not enough space at Waterfront to run two separate lines, because there isn't dual trackage along the entire line, and Translink doesn't own the tracks.
There's enough space at Pacific Central or the Rocky Mountaineer's stations that does not justify building yet another station 3 minutes away.


Like the only real solution is Translink buying all of Metro Vancouver CP/CN/BNSF's tracks, rail ROW's and the SRY and instead having the passenger trains prioritized. That's not happening any time soon, and you can be sure that CP/CN/BNSF aren't going to negotiate in good faith. So unless the City of Vancouver wants to ban freight from the waterfront, it's not going to happen.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The streets are too busy as well, so we'll have to just stick with Langley Bypass. I'd rather see the $$$ tunnelling used for the new Westminister Bridge. It's the one big bottleneck that MUST be addressed before anything else for these plans. The rail lines themselves have little congestion.

Is there any way we could tack it onto Pautello's expansion?

Tack on the replacement of the Westminster Bridge? No. That would be a federal project, and the railway that operates it now (I can never remember if it's CN or CP) is putting improvements into it that will expand its life by another 20-25 years. Not only that, part of the proposed work by MoTI around the Brunette Interchange and United Boulevard Extension in New Westminster is designed such that there will be no at-grade vehicle crossings along that stretch of track, which will allow for trains to clear out of that section of track faster and allow trains to get off the Westminster Bridge faster, reducing that bottleneck.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Kisai

There will be some gnashing of teeth if anything is removed from the ALR. The ALR exists because otherwise they would all be big-box stores. There is no reason to remove any property from the ALR short of infrastructure, by which should be accomplished by trading property back into the ALR from somewhere else.



There will never be anything built in the cut. You're quite literately asking for the entire Commercial Drive section of the Skytrain line to be excavated out to build an underground rail station and siding that will serve nobody. This would never work when Pacific Central is the terminus and going to the Skytrain is less than a 3 minute walk.

Likewise Gilmore is an even longer distance on foot to the heavy-rail tracks than Pacific Central. This accomplishes nothing. The Sperling/Burnaby-Lake station is probably the closest Millennium line station to the tracks. Even then, unless you are commuting to the District of North Vancouver (that is the one additional rail line that connects there) from Burnaby, it's still pointless.

The Millennium Line/Expo Line connection at Broadway/Commercial exists the way it does because they can't interline at that point without a Wye. In hindesight, they probably should have built one if they weren't going to continue the UBC subway, but they didn't, and that left open the door to continue the line all the way to UBC.

So no we all keep going in a bit of a circle here on trying to shoe-horn another commuter-rail option that doesn't do anything to improve the transit system.

There's not enough space at Waterfront to run two separate lines, because there isn't dual trackage along the entire line, and Translink doesn't own the tracks.
There's enough space at Pacific Central or the Rocky Mountaineer's stations that does not justify building yet another station 3 minutes away.


Like the only real solution is Translink buying all of Metro Vancouver CP/CN/BNSF's tracks, rail ROW's and the SRY and instead having the passenger trains prioritized. That's not happening any time soon, and you can be sure that CP/CN/BNSF aren't going to negotiate in good faith. So unless the City of Vancouver wants to ban freight from the waterfront, it's not going to happen.

Lets say Translink wanted to get serious on commuter rail. Vancouver's 3 stations; Waterfront, Pacific Central and Rocky Mountaineer, are all in a good position to make a great network. The lower mainland has lots of lines going to most major cities and destinations, save for the ferry terminals. If Translink were serious, the WCE system would rival AMT and GO.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Lets say Translink wanted to get serious on commuter rail. Vancouver's 3 stations; Waterfront, Pacific Central and Rocky Mountaineer, are all in a good position to make a great network. The lower mainland has lots of lines going to most major cities and destinations, save for the ferry terminals. If Translink were serious, the WCE system would rival AMT and GO.

They could try and make a go of it, but would it make sense? Unlike Montreal and Toronto, Vancouver's job centres are relatively decentralized. Not a ton of people are commuting from Langley and Maple Ridge into downtown.

If you improved the situation, there would definitely be more, but is it worth the cost? I think it's far down the priority list compared with improving rapid transit and local transit throughout the region.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

They could try and make a go of it, but would it make sense? Unlike Montreal and Toronto, Vancouver's job centres are relatively decentralized. Not a ton of people are commuting from Langley and Maple Ridge into downtown.

If you improved the situation, there would definitely be more, but is it worth the cost? I think it's far down the priority list compared with improving rapid transit and local transit throughout the region.

In way, it does make sense that they haven't expanded the commuter rail. If it went to places like White Rock Squamish or Hope, those urban centres would become more dense, and sadly, the highways into the core would become even more gridlocked. Mind you, extending the Skytrain futher than Langley doesn't make sense.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Kisai

There will be some gnashing of teeth if anything is removed from the ALR. The ALR exists because otherwise they would all be big-box stores. There is no reason to remove any property from the ALR short of infrastructure, by which should be accomplished by trading property back into the ALR from somewhere else.



There will never be anything built in the cut. You're quite literately asking for the entire Commercial Drive section of the Skytrain line to be excavated out to build an underground rail station and siding that will serve nobody. This would never work when Pacific Central is the terminus and going to the Skytrain is less than a 3 minute walk.

Likewise Gilmore is an even longer distance on foot to the heavy-rail tracks than Pacific Central. This accomplishes nothing. The Sperling/Burnaby-Lake station is probably the closest Millennium line station to the tracks. Even then, unless you are commuting to the District of North Vancouver (that is the one additional rail line that connects there) from Burnaby, it's still pointless.

The Millennium Line/Expo Line connection at Broadway/Commercial exists the way it does because they can't interline at that point without a Wye. In hindesight, they probably should have built one if they weren't going to continue the UBC subway, but they didn't, and that left open the door to continue the line all the way to UBC.

So no we all keep going in a bit of a circle here on trying to shoe-horn another commuter-rail option that doesn't do anything to improve the transit system.

There's not enough space at Waterfront to run two separate lines, because there isn't dual trackage along the entire line, and Translink doesn't own the tracks.
There's enough space at Pacific Central or the Rocky Mountaineer's stations that does not justify building yet another station 3 minutes away.


Like the only real solution is Translink buying all of Metro Vancouver CP/CN/BNSF's tracks, rail ROW's and the SRY and instead having the passenger trains prioritized. That's not happening any time soon, and you can be sure that CP/CN/BNSF aren't going to negotiate in good faith. So unless the City of Vancouver wants to ban freight from the waterfront, it's not going to happen.

Ok, then terminate it at the False Creek Flats, with provisions to expand to waterfront.

I would only really see it as overflow for the Millenium/Expo Line.


If we have to deal with no ALR land removed (minus the inevitable removal at the Salmon River Highlands and Forest Knolls- it's being subdivided to the point of no return), then we should maybe build it in South Langley or the Maple Ridge Uplands, neither of which are really near city centres, and are basically empty forest. Though it might need rail spurs to service them...

[Trainguy]

The single track Fraser River Railway Bridge at New West is a Federal Bridge. It has been upgraded several times but the piers are original. I doubt it will be twin tracked anytime soon. Marine traffic has priority so the swing bridge dictates whether there is congestion or not. The tracks north of the bridge to the right and all the way into Vancouver are owned by BNSF with trackage rights to other users. Track speed is slow to moderate and can get congested at times. The route does not fit with commuter rail because it would be too unpredictable. Even Scott Road to the Valley wouldn't work because the line doesn't pass through many major centres when compared to WCE. IMO Skytrain to Langley would serve the most customers for the money.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

In way, it does make sense that they haven't expanded the commuter rail. If it went to places like White Rock Squamish or Hope, those urban centres would become more dense, and sadly, the highways into the core would become even more gridlocked. Mind you, extending the Skytrain futher than Langley doesn't make sense.

Extending it past Langley doesn't make sense from a capital cost point of view, and the fact that all the area east is a different transit region. It creates a complexity that TTC/YRT does in the Toronto metro area. The WCE is similar in that regard, let's say that a separate WCE line went from Cloverdale (Surrey) to Langley so that there are no bridges to cross trying to get it to a rapid transit/airport terminus like Bridgeport, and then that line follows the previous Interurban "Central Line" to probably Chilliwack.

(Side note, the interurban used to connect with a logging railway that went all the way to Chilliwack lake http://forums.clubtread.com/11-hikin...tml#post136536 , if you look at the ALR map, not much of it is in the ALR http://www.alc.gov.bc.ca/assets/alc/...ap_92h_001.pdf . )

Back on topic though, I think we're looking at least a century before major developments end up going that far. In 1891, Burnaby was all forest, and the Interurban central park line, literately connected through Central park which was in the middle of the forest.

So the question really should be, where do we want people to commute from, rather than "what would be a scenic ride", or vanity projects which seems to be the problem every time reviving the interurban comes up.

There are political consequences if Surrey is allowed to build a LRT, because they may seek to carve out their municipality from Metro Vancouver, and thus complicate all development in the Fraser Valley. Since Langley is to the east of it, without the Skytrain being extended first, Surrey may never allow anything but LRT's to be built, thus the only way Langley ends up with rapid transit is by extending the Skytrain over to Poco, through Pitt Meadows. That's a much less convenient trip if your destination is anywhere past Coquitlam.

Which goes back to the issue with Heavy Rail/Commuter rail. Let's say for the sake of not wanting to go around in circles again, that Surrey builds it's LRT, withdraws from Translink and then expands it into Langley, and Langley doesn't want anything to do with LRT, and instead wants to be the terminus of a Central Fraser Valley commuter line. We're still left with this gap between the Skytrain terminus and Langley.

Ideally, the Skytrain is extended to Langley, and Surrey can no longer dictate anything to the Fraser Valley. If a commuter rail is then proposed, it could go all the way to Scott Road station (I believe that is the closest) over the existing SRY. But that still requires Translink being able to acquire the SRY. Which since Translink doesn't really have anything to do with the Central Fraser Valley transit area, that may require expanding Translink's area to the entire Fraser Valley, or operating the SRY/Interurban as an independent operator.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Extending it past Langley doesn't make sense from a capital cost point of view, and the fact that all the area east is a different transit region. It creates a complexity that TTC/YRT does in the Toronto metro area. The WCE is similar in that regard, let's say that a separate WCE line went from Cloverdale (Surrey) to Langley so that there are no bridges to cross trying to get it to a rapid transit/airport terminus like Bridgeport, and then that line follows the previous Interurban "Central Line" to probably Chilliwack.

(Side note, the interurban used to connect with a logging railway that went all the way to Chilliwack lake http://forums.clubtread.com/11-hikin...tml#post136536 , if you look at the ALR map, not much of it is in the ALR http://www.alc.gov.bc.ca/assets/alc/...ap_92h_001.pdf . )

Back on topic though, I think we're looking at least a century before major developments end up going that far. In 1891, Burnaby was all forest, and the Interurban central park line, literately connected through Central park which was in the middle of the forest.

So the question really should be, where do we want people to commute from, rather than "what would be a scenic ride", or vanity projects which seems to be the problem every time reviving the interurban comes up.

There are political consequences if Surrey is allowed to build a LRT, because they may seek to carve out their municipality from Metro Vancouver, and thus complicate all development in the Fraser Valley. Since Langley is to the east of it, without the Skytrain being extended first, Surrey may never allow anything but LRT's to be built, thus the only way Langley ends up with rapid transit is by extending the Skytrain over to Poco, through Pitt Meadows. That's a much less convenient trip if your destination is anywhere past Coquitlam.

Which goes back to the issue with Heavy Rail/Commuter rail. Let's say for the sake of not wanting to go around in circles again, that Surrey builds it's LRT, withdraws from Translink and then expands it into Langley, and Langley doesn't want anything to do with LRT, and instead wants to be the terminus of a Central Fraser Valley commuter line. We're still left with this gap between the Skytrain terminus and Langley.

Ideally, the Skytrain is extended to Langley, and Surrey can no longer dictate anything to the Fraser Valley. If a commuter rail is then proposed, it could go all the way to Scott Road station (I believe that is the closest) over the existing SRY. But that still requires Translink being able to acquire the SRY. Which since Translink doesn't really have anything to do with the Central Fraser Valley transit area, that may require expanding Translink's area to the entire Fraser Valley, or operating the SRY/Interurban as an independent operator.

A very good reason for amalgamation.

Amalgamation is helping Halifax get a commuter rail system.

Amalgamation is helping Ottawa get an LRT.

Amalgamation of the cities that make up the GVR would greatly help with even more transit infrastructure.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Amalgamation of the cities that make up the GVR would greatly help with even more transit infrastructure.

Toronto is an object lesson in why amalgamation is a horrible idea. The last thing I want is suburban voters telling me who they want for mayor.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Toronto is an object lesson in why amalgamation is a horrible idea. The last thing I want is suburban voters telling me who they want for mayor.

And the last thing they want are some urban voters telling them who they want for mayor

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Toronto is an object lesson in why amalgamation is a horrible idea. The last thing I want is suburban voters telling me who they want for mayor.

Winnipeg is also an argument against amalgamation. The disruption it causes outweighs any perceived minor benefits.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Well, I wouldn't call "no more mayors/townships guarding their own pathetic piece of the table scraps" a minor benefit.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

And the last thing they want are some urban voters telling them who they want for mayor

That's less likely to happen, because there's usually one primarily urban area surrounded by a bunch of primarily suburban areas.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

That's less likely to happen, because there's usually one primarily urban area surrounded by a bunch of primarily suburban areas.

Metro-Vancouver is not such a clear cut narrative, especially when you consider New West, North Van, West Van, Richmond, Burnaby, Port Moody, etc...

Arguably only Langley, Delta, Surrey, Maple Ridge, and Pitt Meadows have more of the "traditional" suburban mindset when it comes to urban infrastructure. And even they are somewhat nuanced from one and other.