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  #81  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
The 13 colonies did not need to form the governmental units of the new nation. But even if they did, most were small and manageable in size (NY and PA being the most obvious exceptions, as well as VA though it wasn't as urbanized).

There was certainly no need to continue that pattern westward, with a bunch of states that are essentially just shapes drawn on a map. West of the Appalachians, state borders are near arbitrary.
They formed the nation. Period. The reason the North American map does not look like Europe or Africa is that colonies merged into one big country instead a bunch of smaller ones. The government part wasn't really sorted out for another 10 years but in order to take effect, the states had to approve it.
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  #82  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 3:11 PM
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And then let's not forget counties. That's yet another layer of government which does what, exactly? These might have been necessary when you had to travel by horse and buggy, but they're superfluous now.

England is a nation of 55 million divided into 48 ceremonial counties (and is itself one of 4 subdivisions of the United Kingdom, albeit more than 5x the size of the other 3 combined). The least populated of them, aside from the City of London (which doesn't really count) is Rutland with 39,000 people. I would guess that there are many American counties with less people than this. There are also a number of cities and unitary authorities with equal power to counties.

Germany has federal states (and a few of them are city-states), but there is nothing really equivalent to counties. There are just cities and their respective surrounding villages (denoted as the kreis, or 'circle', of City X).

Somehow America ended up with all of the above, so we have local (municipal), county, state and federal. Some counties are so large that they include a city, its suburbs and rural area. Some include a city and only part of its metro area. Some (well, in NYC) are administrative subdivisions of a city.

The whole system is just convoluted as hell, and people wonder why Americans don't engage enough in local government.
interesting, so if you have a bad road in the forest outside of kulmbach, bavaria, do you complain to the state office in kulmbach?

edit: i see...the towns scoop up the countryside around them inside of a defined border.

obviously the problem is that most of the united states was chopped up somewhat arbitrarily before these places were settled by euro-americans. there was no history of hinterlands.

i keep referring to missouri (because it's completely fucked up), but of course we have the core city of st. louis in its own city-county, surrounded by st. louis county with yet again another county seat and county police force (that has its HQ in a municipality/county seat with its OWN police force), with 90 municipalities and 10 "census-designated locations" that use county level offices for some things (some police, tax, etc) and not others, overlaid by fire, police, school, sewer, and water districts that don't often don't conform to municipal boundaries AT ALL that are yet again seperate entities. paying bills here (in st. louis county) is basically insane.
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  #83  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 3:20 PM
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i didn't even get into the bi-state government and taxing structures.
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finally, the cities were abandoned and the survivors fled in all directions, carrying the plagues with them.

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  #84  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 3:43 PM
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Why? If the Federal government doesn't provide money for projects ranging from education to roads, how would that cease the very idea of the nation? I'll never understand this concept. A nation isn't based on grants from the Federal government to schools or for roads.

It not longer exist? They would provide:

*Federal courts, to include the supreme court.
*In a liberal sense, we could still provide medicare and SS.
*National defense and everything that goes along with foreign affairs.
*The Constitution would still be the law of the land, and everything that includes.....environmental laws, interstate commerce laws, civil rights etc etc

Lets not split hairs. Youre using a term I used to the extreme. You know what I mean, and if you don't, you must live in a bubble.
It is the job of the Federal Goverment to "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity . . . ."

It does this by:

- A judiciary whose decisions, at the highest level, override those of other levels of government

- A set of enforcement agencies, along with the ability to bring local militias (now known as the National Guard) under federal control, that can, when necessary intervene in local incidents where "tranquility" is threatened

- Maintaining a national military establishment

- Such laws and provision of such funds as it deems appropriate or necessary to "promote the general welfare" (but it decides).
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  #85  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023
But people don't feel any connection to states.
I don't agree with this. People are territorial by nature. Country, state, city, neighborhood and zip code.

Maybe we should eliminate Delaware. I mean would anybody even notice if they woke up one day and it was part of Maryland? Hell, Californians can't distinguish between VT and NH, but all of us SSP nerds certainly know how different they are from on another and nobody in either state would ever want to be apart of the other state.

I'm sure the people of Delaware wouldn't be too fond of this idea, because people actually do feel connected with their state.
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  #86  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 3:52 PM
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fewer, but more powerful states that would be far more relevant in everyday lives. this is already the case in say california
Many Californians would disagree. There is a chronic low level agiation to break the state up. And it is true that the needs and attitudes of the urban, coastal parts are very different from the rural, inland parts as well as the north from the south. A current example of the conflict is the Goveror's "cap and trade" greenhouse gas legislation which was just extended over the violent objection of entire northeastern quarter of the state. I hardly ever drive--buy a couple of gallons of gas every month or two. So I don't care if the price of gas goes up. But in the northeast quadrant they drive long distances and will feel it much more.
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  #87  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:04 PM
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Many Californians would disagree. There is a chronic low level agiation to break the state up. And it is true that the needs and attitudes of the urban, coastal parts are very different from the rural, inland parts as well as the north from the south. A current example of the conflict is the Goveror's "cap and trade" greenhouse gas legislation which was just extended over the violent objection of entire northeastern quarter of the state. I hardly ever drive--buy a couple of gallons of gas every month or two. So I don't care if the price of gas goes up. But in the northeast quadrant they drive long distances and will feel it much more.
This is exactly why the state is better at these things than the Feds. If there is a marked difference between your area and northwest California, just imagine the different goals and needs between NYC and rural Kansas.
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  #88  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
Many Californians would disagree. There is a chronic low level agiation to break the state up. And it is true that the needs and attitudes of the urban, coastal parts are very different from the rural, inland parts as well as the north from the south. A current example of the conflict is the Goveror's "cap and trade" greenhouse gas legislation which was just extended over the violent objection of entire northeastern quarter of the state. I hardly ever drive--buy a couple of gallons of gas every month or two. So I don't care if the price of gas goes up. But in the northeast quadrant they drive long distances and will feel it much more.
obviously the states have to make sense...parts of california are really extensions of neighboring states (or have a distinct identity) in a way. the same issue you see in the central/southern midwest which is completely screwed up.

maybe nevada could take non-coastal cali, oregon the far north...
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finally, the cities were abandoned and the survivors fled in all directions, carrying the plagues with them.

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  #89  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:28 PM
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i think us metro areas needs to be considered first and foremost, and then go out from there drawing up larger states that make regional sense, erasing counties and drawing up massive municipal borders to get our regions all rowing the same direction.
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finally, the cities were abandoned and the survivors fled in all directions, carrying the plagues with them.

william s burroughs, cities of the red night
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  #90  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:41 PM
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that's messed up how springfield (il) is the state capital of my state and JOLIET is the capital of "gary," (chicago).

menominee and gary should be one with chicago as capital, sangamon and maumee one state (and maybe even nodaway with st. louis as capital), and so on.
Bunch of weird things in that map. I suppose the point was to have units of equal population? The problem with that logic is that population doesn't stay the same as the decades and centuries pass, so unless we want to constantly redraw borders we might as well accept that we're going to have some states/cities (whatever the units are, really) that are a lot more populated than the others.

For example I think TX as it is is less weird than splitting Amarillo, Lubbock and Midland to put them in three different states. Panhandle combined with New Mexico is not culturally a good fit.

I'll stop looking at that map now, don't want to get started on the things I find bad fits in it...
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