PRESTO/Fare Collection

[the capital urbanite]

A rather odd article in the Citizen today (see below). Apparently they are replacing ALL of the old fareboxes.

My question is...Will they have to replace them all again once Smartcards are introduced? (which is supposed to happen in the next 2 years?!)


Bumpy ride for new fare boxes
OC Transpo replacing 'antiquated' 1970s units

Laura Drake
The Ottawa Citizen

Monday, July 28, 2008

OC Transpo is planning to replace all of the fare boxes on its bus fleet -- but a test run of the new contraptions has proved to be a bumpy ride.

Bob Goody, OC Transpo's manager of transit operations, said the fare boxes now on city buses were bought in the 1970s and are antiquated.

"We can't get parts any longer. We had to go to a new product," he said in an interview Friday.

After putting the contract out for tender, the city bought 303 new fare boxes for about $2 million.

The model the city opted for is called the Transview, described on its manufacturer's website as "new, easy-to-use, effective and secure."

Which has only proven to be half true so far in Ottawa.

On June 5, 10 buses were outfitted with the new boxes, but had them removed on June 16 after several problems arose, Mr. Goody said.

The new boxes have two intake slots: one that accepts paper and bills and another that accepts coins.

"Part of the problem is the passengers are not used to having two different places to put their fares, and so now they're standing there saying, 'What do I do now, Mr. Bus Driver?'" Mr. Goody said.

Once any confusion had been cleared up, however, the boxes presented their own problems, since the paper-intake side had what Mr. Goody termed an "alignment challenge."

"On the paper side, some of the tickets are going in crooked and jamming up this side," he said, explaining that the paper must be put into the box at exactly the right angle.

Mr. Goody said the manufacturer told OC Transpo the same problem has occurred elsewhere. The new boxes have now been fitted with a funnel-like piece of hardware that should guide the passenger when they're inserting paper so it does not jam.

The 10 fare boxes have since been put back on the buses after being revamped, Mr. Goody said.

The operations manager for the Montreal company that supplied the fare boxes said in an interview the company is working with OCTranspo to fix the problem.

"It is closely linked to the size of the ticket," said Jacques St-Pierre, operations manager at Garival, who added that most markets require some modification of fare boxes. Often, he said, they suggest the city change its ticket style, but that was not possible here.

Mr. St-Pierre said that if the added funnel proves successful in preventing jams, it will be put on all the boxes. He did not know what cost would be associated with this move.

The boxes have already caused a stir. An online discussion community devoted to OC Transpo saw a posting this week from a person claiming to be a bus driver, lamenting the boxes' existence after an eight-hour shift with one of the new machines.

"It's very clear to me that the people who penciled/produced/approved/purchased these great steaming turds has never been anywhere near a city bus in service in their whole life," the user "plooker" wrote on the OCTranspo LiveJournal community website.

André Cornellier, president of the union that represents OC Transpo drivers, said he has heard there are problems with the new boxes, but did not know exactly what they were and has not personally seen them.

Mr. Goody said drivers did mention the problems, but he wouldn't necessarily call their comments negative feedback.

He also pointed out that the new boxes have some advantages.

The separate boxes for coins and paper allow the driver to more easily see if the exact fare has been presented, he explained, and do not allow money and tickets to pile up as the current boxes do.

After a two-week test run of the 10 new fare boxes, Mr. Goody said, the remaining 293 will be installed across the system. The entire fleet should be outfitted with the new boxes in three to four years, he said.

[p_xavier]

I read on their websit that some of their fare boxes can accept credit cards. So why are we still using change?

And I also find it silly that we'll probably have to change the fare boxes in two years from now, while the new ones won't even be all installed.

[Richard Eade]

I think that the new fare boxes will be installed in new buses as they are received. I don't believe that OC Transpo will be changing the boxes in the 1989 high-floor buses.

From what I have heard, the 'Presto' Smart-card is not going to be here before 2010, at the earliest. We are 'piggy-backing' on the Torronto system and they need to get it installed and tested before we will modify it for our own use. We will be paying about 1% of our fare collection for the privilage of using their system.

There is also talk of Ottawa moving to larger tickets. These will likely be sold in 6s or 8s and will probably not fit in your wallet. The wild thing is that they will also not fit the 'funneling' groove in the new fare boxes either. It is possible that this idea will be dropped once people really start to think about it. This might have been one of the ideas raised to correct a problem with the new fare boxe and it somehow stuck around after that problem had been fixed.

Even after the city gets the Smart-card, there will be a need for a fare box. Although tickets will disappear, cash will still be accepted. (So much for speeding up boarding.) The new fare boxes take bills ($5, at least) - no change given.

I think you will find that the Smart-card readers will be separate from, and mounted closer to the door than, the fare boxes. Just be careful if you step onto a bus to ask the driver a question: You will likely get flagged as 'boarding' and be charged for the ride. This might not be a problem for 'Pass-type' Smart-cards, but could be annoying for 'Payment-type' cards. Last I heard, OC Transpo had not decided on how the Smart-cards would be configured.

[Richard Eade]

Would it be advantageous to put fare boxes beside major stations so that people could pre-pay if they were using tickets or cash?

These would be similar to the ticket machines on the O-Train platforms. Cash or tickets (the O-Train ones don't accept tickets but I think they should) would be inserted and a button (or touch screen) would be pressed to select the ticket type to be printed (Regular, Express, Day-pass, etc.). (Apparently the new fare boxes can count the money that is dropped in and can display that amount. OC Transpo doesn't use this facility but they might eventually get around to setting up a green light - red light system based on a threshold. Currently, I'm not sure how the driver verifies the amount deposited.)

In fact, the use of the machines could be mandatory at major stations. This way, the driver would not have to be delayed by people paying as they board. People would be able to board through any door at these stations; unlike now where people with transfers, etc., must board at the front door.

Would such a system save time? It would involve some costs for the new machines and their maintenance. Would it be worth it?

[waterloowarrior]

there's some info in OC's 2011 marketing plan on the rollout plan for the Presto smartcards...
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/cit...ing%20Plan.htm

[Dado]

Sigh.

This caught my eye... it's reflective of what's wrong with the mentality that governs OC Transpo.

From the middle page, penultimate paragraph:
...province-wide age rules used in the Presto system require that the OC Transpo cut-off for child fares be increased from age 11 to age 12. While this change has minimal impact on fare revenue, significant effort will be needed to communicate the change to riders.

Clearly.


The scene: sometime in the distant future a few years after the Presto card is introduced a frazzled mother of a newly turned-12 year old boy walks up to the ticket wicket at Lincoln Fields with boy in tow

OC Transpo wicket jockey: "How may I help you, ma'am?" [ok, perhaps they're not always that friendly, but suspend your disbelief]

Frazzled Mother: "My son here has just turned 12. He needs to have his Presto card updated."

OCT WJ: "Actually, ma'am, the fare policy changed with the introduction of the Presto card. Child fares now apply up 12 years old, not 11 as they used to, so he won't need his card updated for another year."

Mother: "That's just great. You mean to say I came to this modernist hell hole in the middle of a field for nothing? I tell you what OC Transpo needs... what you need is a significant effort to communicate this change to riders... that's what!"

OCT WJ: "Sorry ma'am. I'll pass that on. Will there be anything else I can do for you?"

Mother: "Yes, you can top up these cards. I let them drain out before bringing him here to get his card updated."



Honestly, how difficult is it going to be for OC Transpo agents to inform parents when they get their kid a Presto card for the first time to let them know that it's good until they're 12? Moreover, whether it's good til they're 11 or 12, the parents are going to have to be told anyway that they'll need to have the card changed or updated upon reaching the maximum age, so it's not actually any more effort if the maximum age is 12 than if it was 11.

[Richard Eade]

Dado, haven't you read the APTA report? It seem that making any effort to communicate to/with the public is a significant effort for OC Transpo.

[Richard Eade]

I think there are bigger things in that plan than the need to communicate the threshold of a Child’s fare. For example, how will the operator know what fare is being paid? If a smart-card is transferable, can I use a child’s card? From what I was hearing a while ago (so it might have changed) there was to be a system of lights to let you and the Operator know if your fare had been deducted and you were allowed onto the bus – green for OK, yellow for Operator assistance needed, and red for NO-GO. Later I heard that there would be a small display so that the person boarding could momentarily see their remaining balance. I heard nothing about the Operator seeing how much the person paid; this was to simplify the Operator’s job to just watching the light and/or listening to a tone.

It sounds as if there are still a lot of unknowns in the implementation – and confusion. I recently asked a bunch (several pages) of questions to the one in charge of getting our Presto system up and running but most of the answers were “Yet to be determined.”

The Presto system was originally envisioned as a simple ‘fare paid from a stored value on a card’; similar to a Tim Horton’s card. When OC Transpo joined the group, the list of requirements jumped about five-fold because we have a very complicated fare structure with all of our pass types and discounts. The base Presto system has been out in the wild for a while but it will take a lot more work to get it up and running in Ottawa.

[eternallyme]

I think, instead of going by age, they should be set according to the grade of the student in school. That would make the age easier to monitor.

Elementary school students (up to Grade 8) should be eligible for the reduced fare. However, they must show proof of such or identification from OC Transpo or another transit authority (otherwise any children older than 5 should have to pay a full fare). In addition, a reduced-fare monthly pass for children, at a price half that of the Adult Pass, should be introduced.

[bobert_d]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I think, instead of going by age, they should be set according to the grade of the student in school. That would make the age easier to monitor.

Elementary school students (up to Grade 8) should be eligible for the reduced fare. However, they must show proof of such or identification from OC Transpo or another transit authority (otherwise any children older than 5 should have to pay a full fare). In addition, a reduced-fare monthly pass for children, at a price half that of the Adult Pass, should be introduced.

How exactly is Grade 8 easier to monitor? The only pieces of ID that a child that age has is their birth certificate and their health card (which technically isn't supposed to count as ID). What you're proposing would require that parents get a form of some sort from their child's school indicating that the child is in 8th grade, which is adding yet another layer of difficulty in getting the pass, as well as being incredibly easy to forge.

[Acajack]

OMG! Such concern over electronic fare collection!

These types of systems have been installed and rolled out all over the world in scores of cities.

If I look hard enough out my window right now I can see Ottawa in the distance and I actually have an STO chip card in my pocket.

I am sure you guys in Ottawa will do just fine!

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by bobert_d

How exactly is Grade 8 easier to monitor? The only pieces of ID that a child that age has is their birth certificate and their health card (which technically isn't supposed to count as ID). What you're proposing would require that parents get a form of some sort from their child's school indicating that the child is in 8th grade, which is adding yet another layer of difficulty in getting the pass, as well as being incredibly easy to forge.

Show a student card or OC Transpo ID card (or other transit authority's ID card that shows their grade)...otherwise pay the adult fare.

[Dado]

That dizzy sensation you have is because we're going in circles...

[bobert_d]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Show a student card or OC Transpo ID card (or other transit authority's ID card that shows their grade)...otherwise pay the adult fare.

Most elementary school students don't have student cards. The only ones that do are the Grade 7 and 8's that are attached to a highschool rather than an elementary school.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by bobert_d

Most elementary school students don't have student cards. The only ones that do are the Grade 7 and 8's that are attached to a highschool rather than an elementary school.

People (bus drivers) have to use a bit of judgement as well. Kids who look 11 or 12 are obviously students. They don't really need a card to prove that.

Student cards are primarily for teens who look like borderline adults or young adults who are pursuing their studies.

[Dado]

The discussion concerned distinguishing outright children (those up to 12) from teens (those 13 and up). Since that age group is straddling the range at which kids enter puberty and because kids of that age group grow at all sorts of different rates, there is basically no way any adult can accurately say who is and isn't a child and therefore who is and isn't entitled to a child's fare.

If a kid has a student card, they are probably in high school and over the age of 13, but if a kid does not have a student card, you cannot conclude from that that they are under 13 and entitled to a child's fare.

Something else has to be used. Getting the school boards to produce some other form of usable ID is just adding a layer of complication (and what of home-schooled children, or summer arrivals from elsewhere?).

The only legally-requestable sure piece of ID that a child of that age is going to have is their birth certificate, and it indicates age, not school grade.

That was bobert_d's point.

[Kitchissippi]

Embedded microchip in the forehead. That's what we need. Plus the image of people knocking their heads against a reader every time they board the bus would be very appropriate

[gjhall]

Here's how they do it in London, UK.
Under 5: free with adult
5-10: Free with adult or with Oyster "ZIP" card which you apply for at any post office, costs £10. But this is only for rail transport. Buses and trams also allow free travel without a card for this age group. (Child's fare paid on rail transport without card)
11-15: Free travel on buses and trams, child's fare on rail transport with ZIP card, £10 to get it, same process as above.
16-18: Child's rate for passes, half price for regular fare on pay-as-you go on all transit.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14312.aspx

[p_xavier]

The STM Opus system has more than 20 transit agencies using the same card. Just for Montreal, there's more than 48 types of fare. Ottawa is using "complexity" has an argument to do nothing once again.

By the way, the STM go to each school with their portable card systems to validate the Opus cards. Before the school year begins, they have the pictures and names of the students ready to be transferred to have the cards ready to go when the school year starts.

[McC]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

By the way, the STM go to each school with their portable card systems to validate the Opus cards. Before the school year begins, they have the pictures and names of the students ready to be transferred to have the cards ready to go when the school year starts.

But what if my kid is sick that day? that just won't do!