Sunshine Coast Fixed Link

[Conrad Yablonski]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

A fixed link to the Sunshine coast is another one of those pipe-dreams right up there with commuter rail south of the Fraser, and my favourite... The BNSF railway moving from the White Rock beach. They can talk about, argue about it, form committees, and throw good money at all sorts of studies but in the end none of these will ever happen in our lifetimes, if ever. However, it makes for interesting conversation on forums like this...

Quite agree.

I also wonder where is this deep water port on the Sunshine Coast?

Not near Powell River that's for sure

[Infrequent Poster]

Originally Posted by Conrad Yablonski

Quite agree.

I also wonder where is this deep water port on the Sunshine Coast?

Not near Powell River that's for sure

I'm gonna assume the gravel pit loading facility in sechelt and the facility at port melon south of Gibson.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Conrad Yablonski

Quite agree.

I also wonder where is this deep water port on the Sunshine Coast?

Not near Powell River that's for sure

Port Melon and Powell River.

The gravel pit in Sechelt is nearing end of life. A new gravel Pit will be built in Howe sound at McNab creek.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Except that it would be on a much, much larger scale. More akin to the Seikan tunnel... with difficult soil, a long approach under land, and taking a LOT longer than expected. They essentially had to dig Seikan by hand. There's a great segment on it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puuZ0OJMXAA

The problem is more that the tunnel would be in what is essentially mud, under up to 300m of water. Nobody has built that yet. Seikan is in rock, they drilled and blasted it. The Chunnel is in chalk. Mines have gone up to 5,000 metres below surface. Deep in hard rock is a manageable problem. Digging deep in mud is a problem that is best avoided with alignment and planning.

A Salish Sea Tunnel would be in whatever the glaciers and the Fraser River have collectively dumped into the basin the in last 10-20,000 years.

I have plotted shallower paths that go through the US triangle West of Point Roberts that only hit about 150m below sea level, but for immersed tubes that is still several times deeper than most go.

[red-paladin]

This summary from the province explains why a fixed link to Vancovuer Island is impossible for the forseeable future, and is really all that needs to be said on the matter:
http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/tr...and/fixed-link

Also, it's off topic.

[Conrad Yablonski]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Port Melon and Powell River....

Did you read the link I put up?

It's no more than 50' deep in front of Powell River-hardly 'deep water'.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

This summary from the province explains why a fixed link to Vancovuer Island is impossible for the forseeable future, and is really all that needs to be said on the matter:
http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/tr...and/fixed-link

Also, it's off topic.

To get it "back on topic" any cost viable link to Vancouver Island from the lower mainland has to run through the Sunshine Coast to Powell River and Lund then across those intra strait islands to Campbell River and then South to Victoria.

[Infrequent Poster]

Originally Posted by Conrad Yablonski

Did you read the link I put up?

It's no more than 50' deep in front of Powell River-hardly 'deep water'.

Your link is talking about the government wharf located in Westview. There is a fuel facility there and a barge loading terminal a stones throw south. The pulp mill which is about 7kms north of this accepts cargo ships and rail ferries . Maybe he was referring to that?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

To get it "back on topic" any cost viable link to Vancouver Island from the lower mainland has to run through the Sunshine Coast to Powell River and Lund then across those intra strait islands to Campbell River and then South to Victoria.

Sheesh, seems like an awful long way around, though of course many Upper Coastal cities would grow and expand, for better or worse. It would "cement" in a way,
the so-called "Georgia Strait Urban Region."
Other infrastructure would, of necessity, come with it. Campbell River would no doubt grow, and could ultimately cause a normal Island commuter rail ssystem.
Then the question of: do you want to see Quadra, Cotres Islands, the Sunshine Coast up as far as Lund, with new subdivisions, shopping centres, warehouses, and cars?
A lot of consideration needs to go into such a decision as to whether they want to keep the region natural or 'pave over paradise.'

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Sheesh, seems like an awful long way around, though of course many Upper Coastal cities would grow and expand, for better or worse. It would "cement" in a way,
the so-called "Georgia Strait Urban Region."
Other infrastructure would, of necessity, come with it. Campbell River would no doubt grow, and could ultimately cause a normal Island commuter rail ssystem.
Then the question of: do you want to see Quadra, Cotres Islands, the Sunshine Coast up as far as Lund, with new subdivisions, shopping centres, warehouses, and cars?
A lot of consideration needs to go into such a decision as to whether they want to keep the region natural or 'pave over paradise.'

Though to some it might sound like a disturbing over-reach of governmental power the province could declare large swaths of undeveloped countryside areas as provincial parks or nature preserves (along with emphasizing mainly agricultural development etc. along the new highway). But one thing is certain, now remote/backward communities like Powell River and Campbell River will grow tremendously as regional growth poles/service delivery centers.

[casper]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Sheesh, seems like an awful long way around, though of course many Upper Coastal cities would grow and expand, for better or worse. It would "cement" in a way,
the so-called "Georgia Strait Urban Region."
Other infrastructure would, of necessity, come with it. Campbell River would no doubt grow, and could ultimately cause a normal Island commuter rail ssystem.
Then the question of: do you want to see Quadra, Cotres Islands, the Sunshine Coast up as far as Lund, with new subdivisions, shopping centres, warehouses, and cars?
A lot of consideration needs to go into such a decision as to whether they want to keep the region natural or 'pave over paradise.'

A route like that will not displace BC Ferries. Perhaps shift some truck traffic.

Over the last few years I get the impression there has been a big shift in cargo from the Victoria area to Duke Point. Not certain if that is real or perception. An even more northern entry point would be odd with where the population base is located.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by casper

A route like that will not displace BC Ferries. Perhaps shift some truck traffic.

Over the last few years I get the impression there has been a big shift in cargo from the Victoria area to Duke Point. Not certain if that is real or perception. An even more northern entry point would be odd with where the population base is located.

Displacing B.C. ferries would ultimately be a function of highway transportation pricing/cost and speed of movement. If the highway were to start from Horse shoe Bay (via a bridge or tunnel etc.) and the cost of gasoline were to be relatively low along with good road driving surfaces then such a project could negatively affect ferry service to Powell River if not Campbell River (especially for commercial bus and truck traffic).....again depending on drive times and fuel cost.

[Mininari]

I was flipping through the news today and came across another story about the Federal Government's proposed Infrastructure Bank. After reading it, I thought the Sunshine Coast Connector Project could be an excellent candidate for this kind of funding: A toll bridge that could easily command a hefty toll, and potentially lead to significant economic development (property bonanza).

The key is they need large projects that could generate a decent return for investors (Toll roads, bridges, hospitals, etc). They don't name any specific 'large' projects, but one can easily dream up some big projects... or simply look at ones that are in development, such as the George Massey Bridge, Sunshine Coast Connector, new (expensive) bypasses on the TransCanada Hwy in BC that could be tolled, etc.

http://www.680news.com/2016/11/13/pm...ture-projects/

by Joan Bryden and Jordan Press, The Canadian Press
Posted Nov 13, 2016 2:54 pm EST
Last Updated Nov 13, 2016 at 3:20 pm EST

...
Government insiders say the expectation is that the bank will focus initially on funding one class of projects, like hospitals or bridges, and then expand its scope to other projects over time. It’s a similar path to the one followed by the Ontario government in setting up its own arm’s-length infrastructure corporation.

No specific projects have yet been identified for funding from the bank but Trudeau, Morneau and Sohi are expected to tell potential investors Monday that toll bridges, energy grids and water systems could all be attractive investments for fund managers looking for predictable, long-term returns.

But finding Canadian projects big enough for the likes of BlackRock and its clients will be a challenge, officials say. That’s partly why the Monday morning meeting with the relatively smaller Canada-based funds is important too.
...

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by Mininari

I was flipping through the news today and came across another story about the Federal Government's proposed Infrastructure Bank. After reading it, I thought the Sunshine Coast Connector Project could be an excellent candidate for this kind of funding: A toll bridge that could easily command a hefty toll, and potentially lead to significant economic development (property bonanza).

The key is they need large projects that could generate a decent return for investors (Toll roads, bridges, hospitals, etc). They don't name any specific 'large' projects, but one can easily dream up some big projects... or simply look at ones that are in development, such as the George Massey Bridge, Sunshine Coast Connector, new (expensive) bypasses on the TransCanada Hwy in BC that could be tolled, etc.

http://www.680news.com/2016/11/13/pm...ture-projects/

by Joan Bryden and Jordan Press, The Canadian Press
Posted Nov 13, 2016 2:54 pm EST
Last Updated Nov 13, 2016 at 3:20 pm EST

...
Government insiders say the expectation is that the bank will focus initially on funding one class of projects, like hospitals or bridges, and then expand its scope to other projects over time. It’s a similar path to the one followed by the Ontario government in setting up its own arm’s-length infrastructure corporation.

No specific projects have yet been identified for funding from the bank but Trudeau, Morneau and Sohi are expected to tell potential investors Monday that toll bridges, energy grids and water systems could all be attractive investments for fund managers looking for predictable, long-term returns.

But finding Canadian projects big enough for the likes of BlackRock and its clients will be a challenge, officials say. That’s partly why the Monday morning meeting with the relatively smaller Canada-based funds is important too.
...

Although it might to be politically incorrect to some here the Chinese government would eagerly fund and build such a massive project more quickly and at lower construction cost than (maybe) possible via Canadian sources. The Chinese do have the sophisticated technology to build a bridge or tunnel at Horseshoe Bay from Vancouver to the Sunshine coast.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

Although it might to be politically incorrect to some here the Chinese government would eagerly fund and build such a massive project more quickly and at lower construction cost than (maybe) possible via Canadian sources. The Chinese do have the sophisticated technology to build a bridge or tunnel at Horseshoe Bay from Vancouver to the Sunshine coast.

This has crossed my mind too, as long as the toll per vehicle per trip is cheaper than the ferry, it's viable. Trudeau is in the midst of talking to international investment banks and sovereign wealth funds about a Canadian public-private infrastructure bank, articles saying they need 'big' projects that would attract them, they don't just want to pave potholes.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

Although it might to be politically incorrect to some here the Chinese government would eagerly fund and build such a massive project more quickly and at lower construction cost than (maybe) possible via Canadian sources.

My gut would tell me to wait a few years to see how their domestic infrastructure holds up. I've heard so many stories of graft and corruption coming out of China that I suspect they may end up with pieces of concrete falling out of the sky a la Montreal.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Mininari

No specific projects have yet been identified for funding from the bank but Trudeau, Morneau and Sohi are expected to tell potential investors Monday that toll bridges, energy grids and water systems could all be attractive investments for fund managers looking for predictable, long-term returns.

But finding Canadian projects big enough for the likes of BlackRock and its clients will be a challenge, officials say. That’s partly why the Monday morning meeting with the relatively smaller Canada-based funds is important too.
...

Based on our recent history of tolling bridges, investors will stay miles away from a project the size of the GMT given the potential for revenue payback.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

Although it might to be politically incorrect to some here the Chinese government would eagerly fund and build such a massive project more quickly and at lower construction cost than (maybe) possible via Canadian sources. The Chinese do have the sophisticated technology to build a bridge or tunnel at Horseshoe Bay from Vancouver to the Sunshine coast.

No they don't. What Fjords do the have experience with crossing?

Just like the Straight of Georgia, we're probably not going to tunnel under Howe Sound because it is very deep. Unless you're sure that you have really good rock underneath, nobody wants to work just under 600' of water.

There are a few deep crossings of Fjords in Norway, but the geology is very well suited to building tunnels.

For Howe Sound, I know the depth for most of the Fjord, but have no idea if there's any significant layers of sediments on top of the bedrock since bathymetry just tells the surface depth. Any hard rock tunnel depth would have to be at bedrock depth + about 50 metres additional depth. The deeper the tunnel, the longer it also has to be, which makes it more complex and expensive, and in general a bigger risk.

Assuming 300m tunnel depth, the ramps on both sides would be between 3km and 6km long, making for an overall length of between 8km (10% ramp grade) and 14km (5% ramp grade), depending on what is considered an acceptable angle for the ramps.

I'm not convinced that would be cheaper than a pair of 2km suspension spans.

[red-paladin]

I assumed in this scenario, it would be that foreign investors would provide the financial backing, but Canadian companies would design and built the project.

Unless a project would be something Canadian companies don't have experience with, like building high speed rail from Calgary to Edmonton, I would expect they would be selected to actually build it.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

My gut would tell me to wait a few years to see how their domestic infrastructure holds up. I've heard so many stories of graft and corruption coming out of China that I suspect they may end up with pieces of concrete falling out of the sky a la Montreal.

One possible solution approach would be to hire Canadian engineering firms to monitor the work of the Chinese contractors in the name of public safety. That's what we used to do in California when the state government hired private sector contractors (re: use government engineers/planners to monitor the work progress of private sector contractors to reduce private sector work site corruption/fraud etc.).