Development Concepts and Ideas

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

A couple comments:

(1) CBS is totally on board, Paradise hesitates, Mount Pearl is stubbornly resistant as always for increased service. I have spoken with the Mayor of CBS on this and he is a big transit promoter. Regional cooperation is definitely necessary on this portfolio - if St.John's can rally support and lobby the provincial government to do something about it, then the City will get its way.

Of course a train wouldn't be the very first thing we do, but I imagine it as the end of the rainbow (and a 15 year plan). Express bus routes can be designed along the highway in the meantime coming from different municipalities. But we need to have our ducks in a row with a long-term masterplan before we make any major investments. Otherwise, we'll end up mis-planning and double-paying for things.

And I absolutely agree - we need to convince/persuade people of transit before we will get the support for larger investments. However, we also need to give the public the perception that we are lifting something out and completely replacing it with new infrastructure.

And in fact, my long-term proposal actually begins with adding express routes along water street and columbus as well as express buses from CBS to Kilbride (with a transfer to the other express routes) and then on to Downtown. In the long run, however, this express route would be replaced by LRT, (1) as support mounts and (2) to provide a long-term rebranding of the network.

I completely agree

and that's exactly what I want to do .. do everything in my power to bring the necessary people together to have one of the best transit cities in the country which will help many many things including curbing sprawl and traffic issues as well as ease for tourists/visitors along with giving residents options and improving the quality of life

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

here is a simplified map .. so you can see how there are feeders and express routes connecting.


to explain the route numbering

The Hubs are lettered A,B,C,D,E,F and their feeder routes are their letter plus a number ex. B2

The express routes are lettered with Z and are grey

Black routes are for when more than 2 routes take the same road (to reduce the number of lines)



Here is the system map:

OK, I took a closer look and I also hesitate on having such complicated routes. I think that's what deters people from using the Bus (it's not rapid, it's very slow because they try to pick everyone up). Feeder routes, sure, but express routes should be purely linear and speed-along major routes like Topsail Road, Water Street, Columbus/Prince Phillip, Torbay, etc.

EDIT: Maybe I'm saying this too quickly, I'm just having a hard time understanding your map. haha

EDIT: I guess my point is that feeder routes are less ground-breaking and they will be very hard to synch with express routes because of traffic. St.John's isn't a big City at all, if we can well-plan a couple of express routes then most people in the City will be about a 10 minute walk from a station, which is totally reasonable. Now we have to first tackle the problem of our City being unwalkable in the Winter (and often in the Summer with no street-lighting).

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

OK, I took a closer look and I also hesitate on having such complicated routes. I think that's what deters people from using the Bus (it's not rapid, it's very slow because they try to pick everyone up). Feeder routes, sure, but express routes should be purely linear and speed-along major routes like Topsail Road, Water Street, Columbus/Prince Phillip, Torbay, etc.

EDIT: Maybe I'm saying this too quickly, I'm just having a hard time understanding your map. haha

yup the express routes would be direct and the feeder routes would be loops having buses going both directions (that way if it takes 30 minutes to run the loop, you can take the bus going in the direction that is most direct to the hub creating a max ride time of 15 mins on a 30 min route)... then you can hop on an express that shoots you directly to another hub (which is where most would end their journey however if you need to venture further you can hop on another feeder route at that hub)

again the feeder routes are collector routes to rush people to the main areas in the city.

it may look complicated at first glace however if you look at our current system at first glace it looks crazy. (also it's a pretty simple concept)

http://www.metrobustransit.ca/systemmap.asp#anchor

a way to simplify the experience is maybe have online a direction tool like google which will tell you exactly what you need to do to get to where you want to go. even having screens with these at the hubs could help too.

another idea to reduce transfers is to figure out which feeder routes generally have people say going to a specific hub as an end destination. then say people who ride C1 generally want to go to MUN.. so at the Hub THAT bus continues as the express to MUN. the driver announces that it is now express route Z7 and will continue to MUN. people who do not want to continue to MUN can transfer to their desired route.

I don't know if i'm making this clear.. it's kind of hard to explain a whole transit system while typing hahaha

again I'm not an expert and this is just a concept so I'm sure there can be improvements

[jeddy1989]

EDIT: I guess my point is that feeder routes are less ground-breaking and they will be very hard to synch with express routes because of traffic. St.John's isn't a big City at all, if we can well-plan a couple of express routes then most people in the City will be about a 10 minute walk from a station, which is totally reasonable. Now we have to first tackle the problem of our City being unwalkable in the Winter (and often in the Summer with no street-lighting).

they already sync transfers like what I'm suggesting even with an express route (to MUN from the village).

at the village and avalon mall almost all buses arrive at the same time and they all have radios in the buses with someones who's directing the show so they can transfer.

Edit:

Also the beauty of this system is that a feeder route that has low demand can have smaller buses or do a less frequent run and this does not affect any other routes

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

they already sync transfers like what I'm suggesting even with an express route (to MUN from the village).

at the village and avalon mall almost all buses arrive at the same time and they all have radios in the buses with someones who's directing the show so they can transfer.

Edit:

Also the beauty of this system is that a feeder route that has low demand can have smaller buses or do a less frequent run and this does not affect any other routes

Barf - what a horribly planned system. MetroBus just seems like it's run by a bunch of clueless folk who have no clue what they're doing.

I honestly don't ride Metrobus often (err... never) because it's so bad. haha (I also don't live in St.John's though). A whole chunk needs to be taken out of the village parking lot in order to make a make a more appropriate transfer hub/station.

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Barf - what a horribly planned system. MetroBus just seems like it's run by a bunch of clueless folk who have no clue what they're doing.

I honestly don't ride Metrobus often (err... never) because it's so bad. haha (I also don't live in St.John's though). A whole chunk needs to be taken out of the village parking lot in order to make a make a more appropriate transfer hub/station.

yes there would need to be some infrastructure changes to accommodate hubs, however other than that it's not going to be expensive (relatively) because there are not many more routes than the current system (it's just laid out differently) and they are shorter routes in my concept

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

Edit:

Also the beauty of this system is that a feeder route that has low demand can have smaller buses or do a less frequent run and this does not affect any other routes

Derrr... honestly I just don't think the feeder routes need to be emphasized whatsoever when you're trying to sell this proposal. They just confuse people and are a headache to look at. You can just say 'hub stations service surrounding neighbourhoods with feeder/collector buses' - if you complicate the person you're trying to convince, they will get overwhelmed and just back away. To sell it, you need to be bold and concise about what you envision (that's express routes) because that's what's really different. The feeder routes won't operate much differently than the existing system.

I have actually intentionally de-emphasized the role of feeder routes in my proposal. It's really not a new concept, as it's common in transit planning parlance so over-articulating the plan is not necessary, in my opinion.

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Derrr... honestly I just don't think the feeder routes need to be emphasized whatsoever when you're trying to sell this proposal. They just confuse people and are a headache to look at. You can just say 'hub stations service surrounding neighbourhoods with feeder/collector buses' - if you complicate the person you're trying to convince, they will get overwhelmed and just back away. To sell it, you need to be bold and concise about what you envision (that's express routes) because that's what's really different. The feeder routes won't operate much differently than the existing system.

I have actually intentionally de-emphasized the role of feeder routes in my proposal. It's really not a new concept, as it's common in transit planning parlance so over-articulating the plan is not necessary, in my opinion.

yup

[mrjanejacobs]

Hmmm well I don't think your plan is going far enough if there isn't major infrastructural changes.

When I discuss express bus routes, I am discussing more specifically of BRT routes.

http://www.streetfilms.org/bus-rapid-transit-bogota/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

This is a totally new busing system. They often have their own right-of-way/bus-lanes (but not always), they deposit riders at hub stations, they are elevated off the ground on a platform, they have payment before you load the bus (through turnstiles) to expedite movement/circulation.

Regular buses/"express buses" running with traffic? Honestly, it's inadequate.

[Copes]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Hmmm well I don't think your plan is going far enough if there isn't major infrastructural changes.

When I discuss express bus routes, I am discussing more specifically of BRT routes.

http://www.streetfilms.org/bus-rapid-transit-bogota/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

This is a totally new busing system. They often have their own right-of-way/bus-lanes (but not always), they deposit riders at hub stations, they are elevated off the ground on a platform, they have payment before you load the bus (through turnstiles) to expedite movement/circulation.

Regular buses/"express buses" running with traffic? Honestly, it's inadequate.

A great idea no doubt, and a major improvement to our current system, however:

A study by the United States Government Accountability Office found that the average capital cost per mile for busways was $13.5 million

^

Here is your major problem (from the Wikipedia page)

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by Copes

A great idea no doubt, and a major improvement to our current system, however:



^

Here is your major problem (from the Wikipedia page)

You would be amazed at how much funding is available for public transport projects. Just last year, the feds invested like ~80% the cost of the new MetroBus terminal.

Moreover, there are a number of federal funding plans which guarantee 50% of capital investment for public transit plans.

In most provinces, the provincial government actually invests as much or more than the feds. Newfoundland is an exception in the Canadian context. This is one problem we're facing but it's not an impasse. The NL government really needs to take more initiative in investing in green infrastructure, as they are severely lagging other provincial governments.

I have discussed all of this in my report. haha

The money is certainly there, we just need to be more strategic in accessing it.

EDIT: Just to drive it home, public transit has been ear-marked as one of the countries 5 most important priorities by every single political party. We will not get huge sums of funding for building new roads, but for transit - the offerings are endless.

[jeddy1989]

that's a great system however I can assure you that neither metrobus nor taxpayers will give me the time of day if I come in wanting to completely replace the fleet and spend tens of millions on a completely new system... we can work towards that and do what we can and then move forward .. however much I would want to implement that system just like in Bogata.. we have to look at the realities in the process of getting there. probably a phased approach however if we throw that out right away we will surely be sitting and waiting on feasibility study after study after study for 10 years then just create a battle ground over who's flipping the bill

Edit: we have the same goal here it's just we have to see how to get to it... and that will come with time

[Copes]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

You would be amazed at how much funding is available for public transport projects. Just last year, the feds invested like ~80% the cost of the new MetroBus terminal.

Moreover, there are a number of federal funding plans which guarantee 50% of capital investment for public transit plans.

In most provinces, the provincial government actually invests as much or more than the feds. Newfoundland is an exception in the Canadian context. This is one problem we're facing but it's not an impasse. The NL government really needs to take more initiative in investing in green infrastructure, as they are severely lagging other provincial governments.

I have discussed all of this in my report. haha

The money is certainly there, we just need to be more strategic in accessing it.

EDIT: Just to drive it home, public transit has been ear-marked as one of the countries 5 most important priorities by every single political party. We will not get huge sums of funding for building new roads, but for transit - the offerings are endless.

That is good news to hear, and I honestly had no idea. Cost will be an obstacle for any changes, but if real funding is available then maybe it won't be so hard to overcome.

[SignalHillHiker]

Oh, I hate BRT. They were building one in Winnipeg while I lived there and all I could think was:

1. If you're going through ALL this trouble to build entirely new roads just for buses, why not just built LRT? It instantly eliminates the stigma of buses and makes public transit more attractive.

2. In my opinion, public transit should be used to reduce the amount of traffic on existing roads - NOT create more roads. I'm less offended to creating LRT lines because it's something new and better... but paving over sections of the city for just another highway... I don't like it at all.

3. It keeps everything so depressingly North American. Your city becomes an even more unsightly maze of asphalt with none of the beauty or romance of LRT, tram systems, etc.

I think the feeder/hub system is a much more attractive and appropriate solution for St. John's right now, with the objective of getting LRT along the old rail bed, streetcars downtown, and... we'll see from there.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

that's a great system however I can assure you that neither metrobus nor taxpayers will give me the time of day if I come in wanting to completely replace the fleet and spend tens of millions on a completely new system... we can work towards that and do what we can and then move forward .. however much I would want to implement that system just like in Bogata.. we have to look at the realities in the process of getting there. probably a phased approach however if we throw that out right away we will surely be sitting and waiting on feasibility study after study after study for 10 years then just create a battle ground over who's flipping the bill

Edit: we have the same goal here it's just we have to see how to get to it... and that will come with time

Jeddy read my former post about financing...

I am not proposing replacing our existing fleet. The existing fleet will do the same as it's doing - feeder routes principally. We will not get rid of anything we currently have. We are adding to it. And tax-payers won't be on the hook, as I said before, because there is so much funding available elsewhere. It's not a completely new system. The only difference to your proposal is that these express routes will actually be express and have a standard of quality above the regular, sh*tty bus. I will reiterate: All transit must be a standard of comfort, quality and convenience in order to persuade motorists away from their cars!

It's called PLANNING! haha

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Oh, I hate BRT. They were building one in Winnipeg while I lived there and all I could think was:

1. If you're going through ALL this trouble to build entirely new roads just for buses, why not just built LRT? It instantly eliminates the stigma of buses and makes public transit more attractive.

2. In my opinion, public transit should be used to reduce the amount of traffic on existing roads - NOT create more roads. I'm less offended to creating LRT lines because it's something new and better... but paving over sections of the city for just another highway... I don't like it at all.

3. It keeps everything so depressingly North American. Your city becomes an even more unsightly maze of asphalt with none of the beauty or romance of LRT, tram systems, etc.

I think the feeder/hub system is a much more attractive and appropriate solution for St. John's right now, with the objective of getting LRT along the old rail bed, streetcars downtown, and... we'll see from there.

Signal - BRT is about 1/10th the cost of LRT.

It doesn't necessarily require building new roads, just repurposing the ones we already have.

I would prefer tram to BRT but we need express routes - regular buses are inadequate, unreliable, and uncomfortable. Anything which will be stuck in traffic will not be persuasive!

This 'feeder/hub' system is not revolutionary. haha it's actually common sense and the system most larger Cities use (we just have inept transit planners in our City). It's a step up from what we have but it's still not a huge improvement.

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Jeddy read my former post about financing...

I am not proposing replacing our existing fleet. The existing fleet will do the same as it's doing - feeder routes principally. We will not get rid of anything we currently have. We are adding to it. And tax-payers won't be on the hook, as I said before, because there is so much funding available elsewhere. It's not a completely new system. The only difference to your proposal is that these express routes will actually be express and have a standard of quality above the regular, sh*tty bus. I will reiterate: All transit must be a standard of comfort, quality and convenience in order to persuade motorists away from their cars!

It's called PLANNING! haha

That's what I've suggested

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

Another upgrade to infrastructure I would suggest eventually happen is that the main through fares such as colombus drive add a bus/carpool lane. This will give transit an added advantage over
cars and make it more desirable while allowing a more efficient system during peek hours. As well, emergency vehicules can use these lanes to bypass most traffic.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Signal - BRT is about 1/10th the cost of LRT.

It doesn't necessarily require building new roads, just repurposing the ones we already have.

I would prefer tram to BRT but we need express routes - regular buses are inadequate, unreliable, and uncomfortable. Anything which will be stuck in traffic will not be persuasive!

This 'feeder/hub' system is not revolutionary. haha it's actually common sense and the system most larger Cities use (we just have inept transit planners in our City). It's a step up from what we have but it's still not a huge improvement.

I forget the actual numbers, but when Winnipeg debated the two options, the difference in price certainly wasn't as significant as that. If I recall correctly, it wasn't even double the cost.

And I think the feeder/hub system will make a HUGE difference in St. John's. We're not even following common sense when it comes to public transit yet... so any improvements will be far more pronounced than even the grandest changes in cities with functioning public transit systems.

I'm excited for Metrobus to start being/doing better.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

That's what I've suggested

Originally Posted by jeddy1989
Another upgrade to infrastructure I would suggest eventually happen is that the main through fares such as colombus drive add a bus/carpool lane. This will give transit an added advantage over
cars and make it more desirable while allowing a more efficient system during peek hours. As well, emergency vehicules can use these lanes to bypass most traffic.

--

haha I didn't see that - atta' boy. I also think another argument for BRT is branding. As in if express bus route buses are obviously different from the feeder ones, then the branding will go a long way.

[brack]

I know people in the area don't like it, but I've travelled enough to be used to tolls. It wouldn't bother me much to pay 50 cents coming off the ORR at Stavanger Dr or whatever.