Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It did not occur in my own family - none of the Canadian-born children of relatives with Scots (Anglo-Jamaican in one case) accents spoke with anything other than standard Canadian accents. The idea of any of them being obliged to reproduce the brogue at home seems inconceivable.

I can't see any rationale for wanting the next generation to speak English or French like they're from the old country, unless, perhaps, if the plan is to return. .

Well, the variant of the neutral North American anglo accent that most Canadians speak is not a stigmatized or caricatural accent.

The Quebec/Canadian French accent is the francophonie's equivalent of a Texas or Southern U.S. accent.

I would at this point go out on a limb and say that people with our accent are no longer seen as hillbillies simply because of the accent, but it's none the less the accent that's seen as the most "out there" out of all the world's French language accents.

Remember when you went to Queen Elizabeth Collegiate Institute in Galt, and you and your friends used to joke around by imitating an accent from the US South, with "how yall doin" and all that?

Well, when the kids at Lycée Paul-Claudel in Bourg-en-Bresse do the same thing today, there's a pretty good chance that it's my accent they are gonna pick to goof around with.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, the variant of the neutral North American anglo accent that most Canadians speak is not a stigmatized or caricatural accent.

The Quebec/Canadian French accent is the francophonie's equivalent of a Texas or Southern U.S. accent.

I would at this point go out on a limb and say that people with our accent are no longer seen as hillbillies simply because of the accent, but it's none the less the accent that's seen as the most "out there" out of all the world's French language accents.

Remember when you went to Queen Elizabeth Collegiate Institute in Galt, and you and your friends used to joke around by imitating an accent from the US South, with "how yall doin" and all that?

Well, when the kids at Lycée Paul-Claudel in Bourg-en-Bresse do the same thing today, there's a pretty good chance that it's my accent they are gonna pick to goof around with.

All very true (although if you haven't heard accents about the brogue, you're not paying attention!). But to me it breaks down when you're speaking of the accent of the community you live in. To try to prevent your children's assimilation toward the prevailing local standard accent seems a bit King Canute-ish to me unless you are preparing them for a future elsewhere. In a Quebec context, the parent would, imho, be doing their child a much greater service by instilling the need to speak "Quebec French" well rather than adapting a now-alien accent.

What is the motivation of the parents you are speaking of? Are these people from France, Belgium, Switzerland or from further afield?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

All very true (although if you haven't heard accents about the brogue, you're not paying attention!). But to me it breaks down when you're speaking of the accent of the community you live in. To try to prevent your children's assimilation toward the prevailing local standard accent seems a bit King Canute-ish to me unless you are preparing them for a future elsewhere. In a Quebec context, the parent would, imho, be doing their child a much greater service by instilling the need to speak "Quebec French" well rather than adapting a now-alien accent.

What is the motivation of the parents you are speaking of? Are these people from France, Belgium, Switzerland or from further afield?

I have no idea why, and am not even sure it is really related to parental motivation. It just seemed to happen naturally.

A good friend of mine was like this. His parents moved to Ontario and integrated with the francophone community there. They spoke French with European accents. They were very active in the local francophone community culture and very pro-Franco-Ontarian and also quite enamoured with the Québécois culture. Certainly not condescending at all. They are still active in French Canadian culture though they now live in Quebec and their son is living in Europe.

[rousseau]

What's confounding about the CBC is that the pronunciations are all over the place. The house style seems to be that words like "record" (the noun) should be pronounced the British way, but then other British words get butchered by younger journalists.

It's probably a losing battle, but I really think that Canadian news media should get UK/Irish place names right. It just seems like it would be the right thing to do in terms of our historical and cultural legacy. Today on the radio news an expert from the University of Nottingham was introduced as being from "Nawtting-hayam," as if it were just down the road from Birmingham in Alabama instead of the UK. As if it were "knotting ham."

It was bizarre. She gave the T's the full pronunciation in the clipped Canadian way, as if encountering the word for the first time and sounding it out for herself the way so many Canadians do (I don't like American accents, but at least they confidently elide consonants instead of tripping over them, I'll give them that), but then proceeded to add a "ham" on the end as if she was trying to scare the kosher-keepers out of a Polish deli.

I'd be willing to bet that that same journalist would probably pronounce "Buckingham Palace" properly. You have to shake your head.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Is the "ou" in "house" different from the "ou" in "houses"? With Canadian raising, it is -- because the "s" in "house" is unvoiced, the vowel changes for Canadians, in comparison with when it occurs before the voiced "s" in "houses". Americans (other than in a handful of areas that also exhibit the raising phenomenon) pronounce the "ou" in "house" more or less as Canadians pronounce the "ou" in "houses".

You could do the same analysis with "knife"/"knives" ... another pair where the Canadian raising makes one vowel into two very distinct vowels.

Good catch. What's interesting is that lots of Americans do say "houses" with an unvoiced first "s," which to my ears sounds like uneducated speech, but I'm not sure if that's true. "Blouse"/"blouses" is another one.

Interestingly enough, though, you wouldn't be tempted to voice the first "s" in "mouses" if you were saying it that way in fun. "Mouzes" would sound strange, wouldn't it?

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Good catch. What's interesting is that lots of Americans do say "houses" with an unvoiced first "s," which to my ears sounds like uneducated speech, but I'm not sure if that's true. "Blouse"/"blouses" is another one.

It might be an artifact of some languages that don't have the voiced "z" sound, like Swedish doesn't. "Blouses", with an unvoiced first "s" sounds like something from the Winnipeg Jewish accent, another aspect of which I remember very well was tending to enunciate the "g" in words ending "-ing". My U.S.-born linguistics prof at U of Manitoba was married to a local Jewish woman and used to tell us little tidbits about that accent, but I've forgotten them.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by rousseau

What's confounding about the CBC is that the pronunciations are all over the place. The house style seems to be that words like "record" (the noun) should be pronounced the British way, but then other British words get butchered by younger journalists.

It's probably a losing battle, but I really think that Canadian news media should get UK/Irish place names right. It just seems like it would be the right thing to do in terms of our historical and cultural legacy. Today on the radio news an expert from the University of Nottingham was introduced as being from "Nawtting-hayam," as if it were just down the road from Birmingham in Alabama instead of the UK. As if it were "knotting ham."

It was bizarre. She gave the T's the full pronunciation in the clipped Canadian way, as if encountering the word for the first time and sounding it out for herself the way so many Canadians do (I don't like American accents, but at least they confidently elide consonants instead of tripping over them, I'll give them that), but then proceeded to add a "ham" on the end as if she was trying to scare the kosher-keepers out of a Polish deli.

I'd be willing to bet that that same journalist would probably pronounce "Buckingham Palace" properly. You have to shake your head.

I feel I've been hearing more errors on CBC in recent years. Re "record" (noun), either pronunciation seems fine to me. I don't think of one as "correctly Canadian" over the other. Isn't the somewhat random mixing of British and American usage one of the hallmarks of Canadian English?

One that I don't like, and I don't know if it's a regional thing or even a particularly Canadian thing, and that is "grocery/groceries" pronounced at though it were spelled "grosheries". With asphalt/ashphalt you can sort of rationalize it, but the reason for "grosheries" eludes me. Even stranger, as far as I know it doesn't extend to the pronunciation of "grocer". What's up with that?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

What's confounding about the CBC is that the pronunciations are all over the place. The house style seems to be that words like "record" (the noun) should be pronounced the British way, but then other British words get butchered by younger journalists.

It's probably a losing battle, but I really think that Canadian news media should get UK/Irish place names right. It just seems like it would be the right thing to do in terms of our historical and cultural legacy. Today on the radio news an expert from the University of Nottingham was introduced as being from "Nawtting-hayam," as if it were just down the road from Birmingham in Alabama instead of the UK. As if it were "knotting ham."

It was bizarre. She gave the T's the full pronunciation in the clipped Canadian way, as if encountering the word for the first time and sounding it out for herself the way so many Canadians do (I don't like American accents, but at least they confidently elide consonants instead of tripping over them, I'll give them that), but then proceeded to add a "ham" on the end as if she was trying to scare the kosher-keepers out of a Polish deli.

I'd be willing to bet that that same journalist would probably pronounce "Buckingham Palace" properly. You have to shake your head.

I totally agree. There is no reason CBC people should pronounce British place names the American way.

Before being hired they should be tested on how to pronounce Torquay.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I totally agree. There is no reason CBC people should pronounce British place names the American way.

Before being hired they should be tested on how to pronounce Torquay.

People in Toronto should know that one because of Queen's Quay, but then again, I wouldn't be surprised if lots of younger kids on their first trip to the Harbourfront end up confused when looking for street signs with "Queen's Key" on them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

People in Toronto should know that one because of Queen's Quay, but then again, I wouldn't be surprised if lots of younger kids on their first trip to the Harbourfront end up confused when looking for street signs with "Queen's Key" on them.

I've never understood how with all of the Scottish involvement in Ottawa's power circles over the past century that the inner city neighbourhood called New Edinburgh always rhymes with Pittsburgh when locals say it.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've never understood how with all of the Scottish involvement in Ottawa's power circles over the past century that the inner city neighbourhood called New Edinburgh always rhymes with Pittsburgh when locals say it.

Really? I've never noticed that - French influence do you think?.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

What's confounding about the CBC is that the pronunciations are all over the place.

With CBC I think half the time they pronounce 'finance' and 'financial' with i = 'eye' and the other half with i = 'eee', to the point that I'm still not sure which pronounciation I should adopt for my own English.

It caused me problems for a while, before I arrived to the point I was 100% sure of having heard both from proper-speaking people, so I'm assuming both are acceptable. 'Route' caused me the exact same type of problem. I'd sear it in my brain once and for all the 'right' way after witnessing a native Anglo pronouncing it, only to realize the next year I had the wrong way burned in my brain after hearing a native Anglo pronounce it the other way, so I'd then make an effort to erase that from my memory and overwrite with the new 'right' way...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

With CBC I think half the time they pronounce 'finance' and 'financial' with i = 'eye' and the other half with i = 'eee', to the point that I'm still not sure which pronounciation I should adopt for my own English.

It caused me problems for a while, before I arrived to the point I was 100% sure of having heard both from proper-speaking people, so I'm assuming both are acceptable. 'Route' caused me the exact same type of problem. I'd sear it in my brain once and for all the 'right' way after witnessing a native Anglo pronouncing it, only to realize the next year I had the wrong way burned in my brain after hearing a native Anglo pronounce it the other way, so I'd then make an effort to erase that from my memory and overwrite with the new 'right' way...

Feenancial as in a long "e"? Never. Are you thinking perhaps of a short I "fin" sound? That is not "correct" as far as I know, but you do hear it. In fact, some people let it slide toward a short "u" sound (fuhnancial).

In theory, "route" rhymes with "boot" in Canada and "spout" in the USA, but you hear Canadians (even individuals) using both pronunciations.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Feenancial as in a long "e"? Never. Are you thinking perhaps of a short I "fin" sound? That is not "correct" as far as I know, but you do hear it. In fact, some people let it slide toward a short "u" sound (fuhnancial).

Yep, exactly. When I typed it I didn't bother illustrating the length of the sound, I wanted to contrast the sound (in retrospect, I should just have said 'e'!) as opposed to the other sound ('eye', like the letter 'i').

So yep, definitely "short e". Is that one the incorrect one? 'Cause I've heard it plenty on CBC. Should I adopt the "eye" version? And both financial and finance are always pronounced (their beginning, I mean) the same, right?

[lio45]

"Fuhnance minister" is actually a good example of something you'll hear listening to English-language CBC.

[Ayreonaut]

Originally Posted by Marty_Mcfly

Local dialect is a give away though. The first time I described something as "deadly" when I lived in PEI was a whole situation. I had no idea that wasn't a common descriptor for something being awesome

You're from Cochrane, AB? My dad says "deadly" more than any human should... Then again, he also says "jumpin' Jesus" more than most mainlanders, but he punctuates everything with "eh" enough to be in a Tim Hortons ad (just ask SHH).

[SignalHillHiker]

Your father is like something out of the woods, or Shea Heights. He's like the opposite of you in appearance, but similar in outlook.

[Marty_Mcfly]

Originally Posted by Ayreonaut

You're from Cochrane, AB? My dad says "deadly" more than any human should... Then again, he also says "jumpin' Jesus" more than most mainlanders, but he punctuates everything with "eh" enough to be in a Tim Hortons ad (just ask SHH).

Confirmed that your father's attic is full of old Tim Hortons cups. Go check it out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Really? I've never noticed that - French influence do you think?.

Could be. I know that French influence in Ottawa explains the *wrong* pronunciation of Dalhousie: "dal-hoo-zee".

New Edinburgh is right next to Vanier, a historically francophone part of Ottawa. It could be that francophones over time imposed a more phonetic way of saying it, being unfamiliar with the way it's said in Scotland.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

People in Toronto should know that one because of Queen's Quay, but then again, I wouldn't be surprised if lots of younger kids on their first trip to the Harbourfront end up confused when looking for street signs with "Queen's Key" on them.

I had to travel within the Commonwealth to find out that Canadians pronounced a good number of names from the British Isles in what the rest of the world would describe as the American way:

Strachan - strakkan (American) vs. strawn (Commonwealth)

Doherty - dorty (American) vs. dockerty (Commonwewalth)

Leah(e)y - lay-hee (American) vs. lee-hee (Commonwealth)

Mahoney - muh-hoh-nee (American) vs. maw-nee (Commonwealth)

Funny how most of these are Irish names...