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  #121  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ottawaresident View Post
Yeah, If the Sir John and the Etienne Cartier are upgraded to freeway standards, maybe we won't need the bypass.
Maybe this idea would have been considered 25 years ago, but now there is no way that's happening today. I like the idea of a southern bypass along the Limebank corridor. Hunt Club already has a wide right-of-way and the stretch between the 416 and Woodroffe could probably be converted into a freeway. However things get complicated east of Woodroffe as there are plenty of intersecting driveways and streets as well as residential areas in proximity that would make the project not so feasible.
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  #122  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 7:14 PM
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Also has it occurred to anyone that, if MTO really decides to built the bypass for trucks, it will need to reconfigure the merges from 416N to 417W? Left merges and trucks don’t go well together.

@le_calmar: Additionally making the interchange between Hunt Club Road and a 4-lane Airport Parkway completely freeflowing when there’s so little space will cost too much fortune.
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  #123  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 7:35 PM
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Not really. Hunt Club to the 417 is 3 KM VIA the 416. Limebank will never work. Try Leitrim.
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  #124  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 7:45 PM
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To be clear, I was thinking Hunt Club to Limebank (the stretch of Hunt Club that could arguably be converted into a freeway without too much trouble) and then Leitrim to the 417.
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  #125  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 8:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
I also wonder if it’s possible to convert the Transitway between Carling Avenue and Highway 417 into a 4-lane extension of the parkway upon completing the LRT extension to Moodie Drive, with the following catch:

The northbound lanes can only be accessed from Queensway eastbound (and the remaining segment of Transitway, of course) and southbound lanes can only access Queensway westbound. In other words, the interchange will only be unidirectional to avoid weaving.

@Kitchissippi: That might change even in the short term though, especially now that the rail tracks between Mattawa and Ottawa have been removed.
I took a trip to Israel recently and rented a car while there. In Tel Aviv, on the highway that goes from the airport into the city, they have a separate lane (walled off from the others) in the median is an automatic/electric toll lane (like the 407), where the toll is set according to a real-time computer algorithm that increases or decreases the price every few minutes to make sure that it gets as many cars as possible while keeping it free flowing, so if it starts to get full the price automatically increases until demand goes down and it's free flowing again, and if there's extra room the price goes up so more people drive in it. So that way it's always diverting as much traffic as possible off the main highway while still being free flowing. Motorists are informed of the current price via a variable messaging sign:

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.9849...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.9856...7i13312!8i6656

I thought it was brilliant.

If we extended the parkway to the 417, I would support putting a toll on the 417-Carling section just like this one, designed to maximize diversion off the 417 without making it crowded itself. In off peak hours I feel like this would result in it being free.
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  #126  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 8:59 PM
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It sure sounds like a good idea (no sarcasm!), except I can already hear the voice of people from Kanata protesting~~~
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  #127  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by le calmar View Post
To be clear, I was thinking Hunt Club to Limebank (the stretch of Hunt Club that could arguably be converted into a freeway without too much trouble) and then Leitrim to the 417.
There might be an argument to build some kind of grade separation at Hunt Club/Riverside and Hunt Club/Prince of Wales at some point, but I imagine that this would be extraordinarily expensive and complicated.
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  #128  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
I took a trip to Israel recently and rented a car while there. In Tel Aviv, on the highway that goes from the airport into the city, they have a separate lane (walled off from the others) in the median is an automatic/electric toll lane (like the 407), where the toll is set according to a real-time computer algorithm that increases or decreases the price every few minutes to make sure that it gets as many cars as possible while keeping it free flowing, so if it starts to get full the price automatically increases until demand goes down and it's free flowing again, and if there's extra room the price goes up so more people drive in it. So that way it's always diverting as much traffic as possible off the main highway while still being free flowing. Motorists are informed of the current price via a variable messaging sign:

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.9849...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.9856...7i13312!8i6656

I thought it was brilliant.

If we extended the parkway to the 417, I would support putting a toll on the 417-Carling section just like this one, designed to maximize diversion off the 417 without making it crowded itself. In off peak hours I feel like this would result in it being free.
I support tolls, but I don't understand why we would want to use them to try to maximize traffic on the SJAM parkway right beside the river...
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  #129  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 9:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
There might be an argument to build some kind of grade separation at Hunt Club/Riverside and Hunt Club/Prince of Wales at some point, but I imagine that this would be extraordinarily expensive and complicated.
There is a prof. at Carleton that has been trying to push a partial Displaced Left Turn (DLT) Intersection at Hunt Club / Prince of Wales, see http://www.virginiadot.org/FHWA-SA-1...ionalGuide.pdf

Last time a saw it he was proposing the displaced left turns on Prince of Wales only. The Hunt Club / Riverside intersection probably wouldn't work because of the new intersection just to the south of Hunt Club.
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  #130  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 9:15 PM
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Does that help with reducing left-turn overflow? Maybe we can try that at SJAM Parkway & Island Park Drive.

I suppose a well-flowing SJAM Parkway can help unclog The Queensway and all the other downtown streets.

Ps: I've also heard that The Queensway will be a gong show due to extensive construction starting this summer. Would anyone recommend taking Richmond Road -> Carling Avenue -> SJAM Parkway -> Portage Bridge -> Boulevard Maisonneuve (Gatineau) -> A5 -> King Edward Avenue to go around?
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  #131  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 9:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Does that help with reducing left-turn overflow?
It improves the efficiency of the intersection overall by reducing the number of signal phases. For example:
  • A conventional intersection: east-west left, east-west through, north-south left, north-south through (4 phases).
  • A pair of displaced left-turns on the north-south street: east-west left, east-west through, north-south through+left (3 phases).
  • Displaced left-turns on north-south and east-west street: east-west through+left, north-south through+left (2 phases).
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  #132  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 9:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Maybe we can try that at SJAM Parkway & Island Park Drive.

I suppose a well-flowing SJAM Parkway can help unclog The Queensway and all the other downtown streets.
At one point the Island Park / SJAM intersection included a flyover for eastbound left-turn traffic to access the bridge, but this was removed in the final design. A widened / improved SJAM only funnels more traffic to Gatineau's Boulevard de Lucerne and Chemin d'Aylmer intersections (already clogged) or further east to downtown Ottawa at Portage and Wellington (also already clogged). It really doesn't improve much for anyone.
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  #133  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 9:28 PM
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That means the bypass really has to be south of the city then.
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  #134  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 10:24 PM
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Can't believe I see people contemplating about building a highway on the banks of Ottawa river. Jesus. What century is this?

Here's the thing, 417 will always remain clogged no matter how wide you make it and how many bypasses you build. As soon as you increase capacity, immediately thousands of 2-car-household commuters will throw away their bus passes and jump into their cars and clog 417 again to the same threshold. Except now you have Billions in debt, degrading transit and thousands extra cars stuck on downtown streets that simply cannot be expanded any more, thus making things even worse.

The only way you can "unclog" it is with congestion pricing and/or better transit. That's it.
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  #135  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2019, 1:17 AM
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Agreed. Expanding Ottawa's highways can do many things, but reducing rush hour travel times simply is not one of them. Anything that reduces rush hour travel times will necessarily attract more use. It's intuitive; if something's easier, of course you should expect more people to do it.

If we want to truly make a bypass instead of just another clogged road, then it has to be so far from the city that it's impractical for commuting purposes. I'm talking Renfrew to Kemptville to Casselman. I remain to be convinced that there are enough people who actually need this sort of connection. I can only imagine truckers coming down Highway 17 who pass through Ottawa between the hours of 7-9am and 4-6pm who want to avoid rush hour traffic. Considering that this kind of road would have a cost in the billions, I'm just not sure it's worth it.



If our concern is that it takes too long to drive about Ottawa at rush hour, then the only - and I mean only - solution that has worked anywhere at any time is decongestion pricing. I hate to be so categorical - it makes for poor discussion - but the sheer burden of evidence from decades of experience in hundreds of cities warrants it.
Put up a cordon around the congested downtown and charge people up to $3-4 (the price of a bus ticket) to enter at the height of rush hour. It can be free between peaks and on weekends, as it is in Stockholm. When that city started a pricing trial, 25% of rush hour car trips simply vanished, as did the traffic jams. The money from the tolls went towards improving the roads and transit, which further helped to reduce commute times.


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  #136  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2019, 1:51 AM
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I disagree. Ottawa routes an enormous amount of traffic that has no need to be downtown through downtown (all of the interprovincial traffic, nearly all of the crosstown traffic). More viable bypass options would take a lot of pressure off the core, a congestion tax just forces traffic from less congested streets to more congested streets.
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  #137  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2019, 1:58 AM
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A bypass will never be built in my lifetime - and I've got another 35-50 years left!
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  #138  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2019, 1:58 AM
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An important question is this: Do a lot of trucks use TCH (417, The Queensway) without making any stop in Downtown Ottawa? (The industrial park by the highway on St Laurent Boulevard doesn’t count.) If that number exceeds 6000 per day, per year, MTO should consider a 4-lane bypass in the south.
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  #139  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2019, 2:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
An important question is this: Do a lot of trucks use TCH (417, The Queensway) without making any stop in Downtown Ottawa? (The industrial park by the highway on St Laurent Boulevard doesn’t count.) If that number exceeds 6000 per day, per year, MTO should consider a 4-lane bypass in the south.
The 417 doesn’t have that many trucks, at least compared to most other 400 series highways. There is an interprovincial truck problem mostly because trucks are forced onto narrow Ottawa streets, but not because of volume.
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  #140  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2019, 2:15 AM
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I disagree. Ottawa routes an enormous amount of traffic that has no need to be downtown through downtown (all of the interprovincial traffic, nearly all of the crosstown traffic). More viable bypass options would take a lot of pressure off the core
The premise is flawed; it assumes a fixed number of cars with fixed destinations. All real-world evidence proves that congestion prevents a great deal of car trips, and conversely, reducing travel times causes an increase in the number of car trips.

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, a congestion tax just forces traffic from less congested streets to more congested streets.
I think you're mistaking a congestion cordon with a highway toll. You're right about a toll, but a cordon charges all entry points, so there's no way to go around or 'toll-shop' a cheaper route.
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