Phoenix CityScape Thread

[combusean]

^ If you include the areas of West Phoenix and South Phoenix, all of which were annexed before Metrocenter was, you'd run into a very big chunk of dirt.

I'm not a transplant, and made this...which is due for updates and fixes...



The Camelback Corridor is so named not because transplants called it that but because it's a hugely significant arterial road and was the second ring of Phoenix's sprawl if you include Midtown as the first. And again, you argue against yourself. Metrocenter was built two or three miles east of Sunnyslope. If Sunnyslope incorporated, it could have been the first city to wall Phoenix off at the northern end and would have included Metrocenter.

[phxSUNSfan]

The Camelback Corridor isn't a neighborhood. You argue against yourself if anything. There are all kinds of "corridors": McDowell Corridor, Thomas Corridor, Indian School...

And now we are talking about West Phoenix??? Sure if you include West Phoenix then Metrocenter would be too far to be in a smaller city's footprint. If we include many parts of Phoenix it would be too far. Nice map, did you make it up? It doesn't even match the City's generic urban villages.

[nickw252]

What does this have to do with CityScape?

[phxSUNSfan]

Originally Posted by nickw252

What does this have to do with CityScape?

Nothing...but was an interesting conversation. Moving on...

[combusean]

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

The Camelback Corridor isn't a neighborhood. You argue against yourself if anything. There are all kinds of "corridors": McDowell Corridor, Thomas Corridor, Indian School...

When did I ever say the Camelback Corridor was a neighborhood? Do you think Central City is a neighborhood? Camelback Corridor is a region that is composed of many districts and neighborhoods. I thought the map made that clear.

And very few in Phoenix use the terms McDowell or Thomas or Indian School Corridor. People *do* use the term Camelback Corridor.

And now we are talking about West Phoenix??? Sure if you include West Phoenix then Metrocenter would be too far to be in a smaller city's footprint. If we include many parts of Phoenix it would be too far. Nice map, did you make it up? It doesn't even match the City's generic urban villages.

I'm going by annexation dates. Phoenix annexed its entire north side up to Sunnyslope and its entire south side down to South Mountain in the late 1950's. Maryvale developed almost all at once post-war and stretches far into West Phoenix.

All of that developed many years before Metrocenter did. I'm saying is that if Phoenix were hemmed in by more lax incorporation laws, Sunnyslope and Metrocenter would have comprised the first incorporated suburban city.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by nickw252

What does this have to do with CityScape?

It started from the CityScape Target announcement to somebody's assertion that one in Chris-Town was enough because this person insisted Chris Town was in the central city, then it went from there to figuring out where Central City was, which dovetailed into what it is now.

But yeah, I've said my peace.

[PhxDowntowner]

Originally Posted by combusean

In any other region Metrocenter would be in a different city, but State law (namely the six mile rule, planning regulations, strip annexation) combined with growth patterns have prevented the numerous small cities that would have otherwise existed within Phoenix's present boundaries.

What's the six mile rule?

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by combusean

Central Phoenix for me ends at the Grand Canal.

I think thats pretty narrow and you'd be wise to reconsider Missouri as the Northern border of Central PHX, thats where things really begin to change. Look at the area between the Canal and Missouri vs the Canal and say McDowell, they're largely similar:

Light Rail access: Check
Mid rise towers for office and condo: Check
Prewar housing on modest lots: Check
Street facing retail in stretches: Check
Large offices home to regional HQs: Check
Restaurants/Nightlife aimed at the urban crowd: Check

Its only once you move North of Missouri to you see the much larger post war rambling ranchers in large quantity. Thats also where the Bridle Path begins and changes the feel from a more urban feel to something more countrified, horse properties begin to proliferate as well.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by PhxDowntowner

What's the six mile rule?

Any area that wishes to incorporate that is within six miles of another city has to have their incorporation approved by that city. It keeps towns particularly large here.

[plinko]

Originally Posted by combusean

Any area that wishes to incorporate that is within six miles of another city has to have their incorporation approved by that city. It keeps towns particularly large here.

Interesting. I've never heard of that before but it makes total sense.

One of the things I like about metro Phoenix is the relative sizes of the burbs. Phoenix is still the clear heavyweight, but at a regional level they deal with maybe 20 separate entities rather than 100+. Not that regional planning in Phoenix is some wonderland that works extremely well, but at least you don't have to get so many players to agree on everything.

There really are only a few city divisions that I would like to see in the Valley. Scottsdale into two cities (divided at McCormick ranch or thereabouts), Ahwatukee (just so that Phoenix didn't have to throw any money or services at them), and Lehi (it might have maintained some of its agricultural heritage). Not much more.

And I could certainly make the case for consolidation of several of the valley burbs (El Mirage? Really?).

But I digress, this is the Cityscape thread. Thanks for the good info Sean. Always interesting to find out something new about why things developed the way they did.

[KEVINphx]

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

I do it in much less time than an hour. Yes, I shop at Target from time to time. It is only a few minutes ride from downtown. The rest is just a few blocks of walking; nothing drastic about it. If you live downtown, expect to walk with bags of groceries. Had to do it in New York, Seattle, and Frankfurt (Germany).

This is untrue - I would LOVE to see some sort of PROOF that one could walk on foot to a MLR station at, say, Roosevelt in Phoenix, await the next train, take that train journey to the end of the line at Metro Center - run (even literally) in to Target, pick up some sundries and run (again, literally) back to the platform, await the return train, ride the return train journey and walk back home - in an hour or less That would be a stretch in my own car, let alone the slow-as-hell MLR.

Making the same trip in NY or Frankfurt (don't know about Seattle) is NOT comparable as those are places with trains that run at a MUCH greater frequency and speed as well as have right-of-way on their tracks. These cities are also set up for this sort of living much more so than Phoenix is.

The rail line borders my neighborhood on both Camelback and Central and I can walk to TWO stations from my front door in less than 5 minutes, I know what I am talking about.

I wouldn't even take light rail to Target at Metro Center and I live at Central and Camelback - because it is cheaper and faster to drive myself and I live several miles closer along the line.

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

I'm not sure what your last paragraph is arguing for but the "Central City" is just a way of defining an area that is geographically dense and can be easily traversed on mass transit and it INCLUDES downtown.

My "argument" was that you were clearly deciding on your own gumption a very narrow definition of what is "central city" in Phoenix - which is no officially recognized zone as far as I am aware. You are arguing a definition that is nothing more than personal conjecture.

Based on your own definition, clearly other places outside of your boundary fit the bill as well. Places like I described in my "argument"

As if I am some moron needing education as to the definition of "central city"

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

East of the 51 is generally defined as East Phoenix, East Camelback, etc.

West of the 17 is Maryvale, West Phoenix, etc.

North of Dunlap/Northern is Sunnyslope.

Are you a native or is your family native to this area? Just wondering...

and east of Phoenix is California and north is Canada. . .

My family started in the valley when my great uncle moved to Phoenix during the Great Depression moving truck loads of ash 30 miles for $.05 a load or something-or-the-other.

My paternal grandfather brought the rest of the family during the late 1950s to find work at the then-new project "Sun City" might have heard of it?

On the other side of the family, my Mother's family moved to the Phoenix area during the 1940s.

I hope that I have proved to you that my family is "native" enough for me to know where the hell shit is.

[Leo the Dog]

Are you a native or is your family native to this area? Just wondering...

phxSUNSfan, Why should it matter to you whether someone is a "native" or not?

[phxSUNSfan]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

phxSUNSfan, Why should it matter to you whether someone is a "native" or not?

Not that this conversation should be continued, but it is telling if someone is native or not by how much they know traditional Phoenix neighborhoods and namesakes. Transplants, with the help of inept city leadership, have distorted Phoenix neighborhood character and mangled traditional names for areas. Most non-natives don't even realize they live in Phoenix and say they reside in Scottsdale, for example as happens in areas of Arcadia and NE Phoenix....

To KevinInPhx, you're probably right and it might take closer to an hour to run to target from Roosevelt (Post Apartments) if Target were at Metrocenter. Luckily, it's much closer and in Christown. The train doesn't even go to Metrocenter...from end of line at 19th and Montebello to Sycamore and Main in Mesa the entire trip takes about 65 minutes so I very much doubt you know what you are talking about. That or you are playing the contrarian for shits and giggles...

[NorthScottsdale]

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

Not that this conversation should be continued, but it is telling if someone is native or not by how much they know traditional Phoenix neighborhoods and namesakes. Transplants, with the help of inept city leadership, have distorted Phoenix neighborhood character and mangled traditional names for areas. Most non-natives don't even realize they live in Phoenix and say they reside in Scottsdale, for example as happens in areas of Arcadia and NE Phoenix...

In reality, the exact opposite is probably true... it is the natives who would rather say they live in Scottsdale to boost their image.

Also, How could someone not realize they live in Phoenix? When they get their utilities bills it will clearly say Phoenix... With the exception of the 85254 zip code, which, for reasons I don't understand has a Scottsdale address.

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by NorthScottsdale

In reality, the exact opposite is probably true... it is the natives who would rather say they live in Scottsdale to boost their image.

Also, How could someone not realize they live in Phoenix? When they get their utilities bills it will clearly say Phoenix... With the exception of the 85254 zip code, which, for reasons I don't understand has a Scottsdale address.

85254 isn't the only zip code that is actually in Phoenix but has another city's address. Same is true for parts of zip code 85310...it's actually in Phoenix (parts of it) but the address is Glendale, AZ.

The reason for this is due to the post office that delivers their mail. In both cases, there is a US Post Office near the border of the zip code and that post office delivers to a certain radius. Since the post office itself is located in 85254 (or 85310), then all the addresses that are delivered from that post office also share the same zip code.

[pbenjamin]

The area that is 85254 had people living in it when it was unincorporated county land. The Post Office had to call it something, they chose Scottsdale. When it was annexed by Phoenix, there was some discussion of changing things but the residents were against it, feeling that their property values would suffer.

I once worked for a fellow who lived in 85254. He maintained that he lived in the city of Scottsdale but had "Phoenix services". He was a moron who clearly never voted in a city election. I have talked to others who had similarly silly ideas.

[KEVINphx]

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

To KevinInPhx, you're probably right and it might take closer to an hour to run to target from Roosevelt (Post Apartments) if Target were at Metrocenter. Luckily, it's much closer and in Christown. The train doesn't even go to Metrocenter...from end of line at 19th and Montebello to Sycamore and Main in Mesa the entire trip takes about 65 minutes so I very much doubt you know what you are talking about. That or you are playing the contrarian for shits and giggles...

What the fuck ever, that is what I meant and any idiot following this thread could figure it out. Perhaps it is you who is playing around for "shits and giggles"

I have ridden the fucking train enough times to know what I am talking about. I lived at Main Street and the 101 right on the thing when it was under construction and when it opened up until last October when I moved to the Pierson Place historic district.

You can quit your yap now because you are full of shit and you know it; it would take a VERY good day to make it from Christown to Sycamore in "about 65 minutes"

I know what I am talking about, so I am not going to continue this pointless argument any further.

[phxSUNSfan]

And back on topic, there was a piece in the AZ Republic today that gave too much credit to CityScape and its impact on Phoenix:

"Exciting developments are happening in Phoenix. Not only is Phoenix one of the most desirable places in America to live, it is becoming one of the most ideal places to work.

Phoenix is receiving another boost in the coming months with UnitedHealthcare's move to the CityScape building in downtown."
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...#ixzz1bpJxVJr8

[scottkag]

Chipotle slated to open in December after several construction delays

http://downtowndevil.com/2011/10/25/...-construction/

[combusean]

phxsunsfan, it's pretty clear that you're not counting travel time to the station and waiting for the next train whereas KevininPHX is. That time figure is pretty significant given a half mile walk could take 10 minutes and then you wait, what, 12 or 15 minutes for the train?

You'd have to be able to spit on the platform from your front door to make it from Sycamore to Chris-Town in 65 minutes and the train would have to hit practically every green light along the way. Kevin's travel time estimates are far more realistic.