2012 vs 1984: Young adults really do have it harder today

[Copes]

davidivivid, spectacular post.

I disagree with the Quebec protests on the surface. Tuition is going to raise, its to be expected and is necessary. Its hard to feel bad for the group who pays the lowest rates in the country. I recognize that tuition needs to go up over time. I've often made comments regarding how low my own tuition is, and I truly would understand a small increase.

That being said, your commentary regarding the government and the spending of funds is spot on, and is one of the reason young people care so little about the system. Young Canadians are largely ignored, and so any movement of young people that makes a government pay attention is alright by me.

As for those who will say "young people are ignored because they don't vote," I would respond with "young people don't vote because they are ignored." Its really a chicken or egg argument, and is moot at this point. I myself always take part in elections, but its hard to convince my less politically inclined pals to do the same. Maybe someday, when an issue comes up that they're passionate enough about. Like tuition in Quebec for young people there.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by MTLskyline

Mexico does indeed have low unemployment (5.1%), yet people still flee in droves across the US border. It sounds as though the people who are emigrating could easily find work in Mexico if they wanted to (especially since their university education is free).

Do they emigrate because American wages are higher (even under the table)? Or is it not related to the economy at all?

Actually, net migration from Mexico to the United States reached zero last year, a point which President Calderon was sure to point out on a recent visit to Washington. There is still migration from Mexico to the United States, but there are Mexicans in the United States returning to Mexico because they've realized that today they can get by just fine in their home country, and according to a BBC article I saw recently, there are even unemployed Americans going to Mexico looking for work.

Originally Posted by MexiQuebecois

As a Mexican who recently got accepted for Permanent Residence in Canada (about to leave Mexico City in a few months) let me give you my perspective on this situation:

Mexico does indeed have a lot of opportunities and jobs aren't hard to find, but they're all located in Mexico city. I'm originally from Tijuana, and I moved to Mexico City to start my immigration process about 2 and a half years ago, I found a job within a week of landing and I have never been more than a few days without a job, speaking English (and a few other languages) was all I needed. I live in a great neighbourhood (Colonia Roma/Condesa, google it) and I can't complain about life. But I just told you the issue with this country; almost every single job is located in Mexico City! We're talking about a VERY VERY centralized country where, if you want to work, you have to move to the capital city, and trust me, we can all claim to be city lovers here, but living in a megacity of 21 million people in a developing country does come with a lot of disadvantages.

Yeah so you either stay in your quaint little town unemployed, or move to the Capital city, you move here and yes you have a job, but rents are relatively expensive, it's crowded as hell so the traffic is horrible, noisy, polluted, protests all the time, etc. Salaries are higher in Mexico City, but it all comes at a price.

Regarding immigration:
People immigrate for a lot of reasons (mainly economic) but the mosaic of Mexican immigrants going to the USA and Canada is very different. Those going to Canada tend to be more educated and are doing quite well in Mexico. The ones going to the USA do so because there's this notion that going to the USA means finding a job and getting rich. These people normally have family members living there so they have a safety net and these family members tell them how great it is to be in the USA (nobody wants to be seen as a loser back home, right?) This is prevalent in certain states and with people of a certain socioeconomic level.

The ones going to Canada tend to use the Skilled worker program so they're educated and do so the legal way. There's no border between Mexico and Canada, so illegal immigration to Canada from Mexico is virtually zero (especially after the visa requirements) the USA is in the middle, and if you already crossed one border, why would you bother doing it again?
In my case I finished high school in Canada and met my wife there. We started comparing whether to live in Mexico or Canada and the latter came out the winner. Reasons? Mainly stability. Here in Mexico there's no pension plan provided by the government (you save your own money) and the education is horrible, also more opportunities for my future children, lower crime rates, less corruption, and a huge ETC.

Also funny how all foreigners keep on mentioning the great education system in Mexico because universities are free. Yes they're free, but here's the catch: You only have one "admission pass" which we call a "ficha" meaning that when you're in high school, you have to take a very difficult exam, and only a certain percentage of those who took the exam will gain a spot to enter university. So let's say that UABC (university) is taking 20,000 students this semester, and 60,000 prospective students apply to UABC, you're among them and you actually pass the exam, but another 30,000 also passed the exam, so you do qualify for a spot, but since there are too many applicants you're shit out of luck. Since you only have one admission pass this means that you can't go to university unless you apply next year or pay for a private one, which cost the same or more than your average tuition in Canada, oh and no government loans either! So you better stay with mom and dad for those 4 years, that is, if they can afford to pay for your tuition

Hope that helps

This is a VERY interesting perspective, and I've been waiting a long time to hear from a Mexican who is immigrating to Canada. So far I've only heard from Mexicans with romantic notions of what it might be like to live in Canada.

I wouldn't say that necessarily every single job is located in the capital - I have friends in other parts of the country and they have had no problems finding good employment. They live in mid-size cities, similar in size to Saskatoon or London, Ontario. However, the economic situation in Mexico City is likely better than many parts of the country. The city is indeed very crowded, and my least favorite daily activity is taking the subway in the morning. I'm getting used to it, at least.

You're very right about the reasons some Mexicans go to the United States - there is still a belief among many Mexicans that there are endless opportunities there. I even had an educated Mexican try and tell me that murders and even robberies never happen in the United States or Canada. Which is strange because Mexico City has a murder rate lower than many major U.S. cities; you're six times more likely to be murdered in Detroit, for example, according to the most recent statistics I've seen.

Your perspective on the post-secondary education system is also very interesting. I am a little biased, I guess, because every single Mexican I know who wanted to go to a public university got in without any problems. I haven't heard about the other side of the coin. Still, what would you rather have - the possibility of attending a university for free and be almost guaranteed a job in your field after graduating with no debt, or be guaranteed to pay $26,000 over four years and get stuck working at Tim Hortons after graduating, while battling debt?

The biggest difference I've noticed, however, is rent. I rent a nice apartment in Mexico City for CAD $150/month, and it is very secure. When I briefly lived in Toronto last year, I was paying $900/month for a dump that had no security and was less than half the size of the place I live in now. I'm surprised my laptop never got stolen.

[SpongeG]

what are they telling young people these days at school like college or high school level?

when i was in college in the 90's we were always being told by guest speakers, people coming to talk to us in the field etc. about how we can expect to not get a job when we get out, that we will need to work part time or freelance and take odd jobs to make ends meet - i was studying journalism print & photo at the time

so we kind of had the notion that finishing school was just the beginning of the struggle and to get used to the idea that we shouldn't be expecting jobs that will last and to adjust now to the idea of contract and freelancing

do they still tell people that these days? or has the message got worse?

anyway last couple years i took a number of career planning courses and job finding courses while i was on EI and they were telling us that the generation - those in their 60/70's now were of the last generation of people who could finish school and walk into a lifetime career job at a company, and as a job seeker we should be prepared to expect to have many jobs over our lifetime now - i forget the exact number but i think it was something like 24, the average person starting out today will have 24 jobs in their working life compared to the older generations, the number used to be something like 7, most people would have 7 jobs in their lifetime

its definately a time of changes which is tough to be in the middle of it all

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

what are they telling young people these days at school like college or high school level?

The sales pitch these days is that university graduates earn more money over their lifetimes than others. While in university, it is common to hear from graduates who have found great jobs. Those speeches don't come with "Results not typical" disclaimers.

Only once during my high school or university years did I ever hear anything about graduates not being able to find jobs. It was in a sales pitch from a private school near Toronto that was doing presentations at my high school. Otherwise all I kept hearing was about all the great jobs that university graduates were working in. I don't know how they did it, but they sure had me fooled.

As far as I'm concerned, Canadian universities and colleges are big cash-generating machines, worried about nothing but making money from naive students so that they can blow money on overpaid professors and expensive rebranding campaigns (I'm looking at you, Western). That's one of the main reasons I'm an advocate of zero tuition.

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

I belief most people who cant afford to enter the housing market aren't making the same sacfrices to save money that people were a generation ago. Camping has been replaced by yearly all inclusive trips to Mexico and weekend parties in Vegas. Growing vegetables like Potatoes, tomatoes, etc in gardens has been replaced by eating out multiple times a week. Lavish entertainment sytems and electronics are something people were willing to live without.

It's certainly not the same with everybody, but from my experiences it's the case.

To your point, a good article on this very phenomenon:

http://www.thegridto.com/life/financ...ure-affluence/

[someone123]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

As far as I'm concerned, Canadian universities and colleges are big cash-generating machines, worried about nothing but making money from naive students so that they can blow money on overpaid professors and expensive rebranding campaigns (I'm looking at you, Western). That's one of the main reasons I'm an advocate of zero tuition.

Realistically, I don't think the cost of an undergrad degree has to be anywhere near what most students pay.

Many statistics show that only a small percentage of university funding comes from tuition payments, but only part of the expenses are undergrad education. The most important part for undergrads is lecturers and TAs. Neither get paid very well.

My guess is that most university money goes toward expensive research faculty and research labs, union wages for the bureaucracy and other workers, etc. None of this is really that important from an undergrad's perspective. Many great researchers are awful lecturers and don't even want to lecture.

I think universities need some pretty serious reforms. We might see this happen soon since some of the top schools are aggressively pushing online courses. There's a lot of social inertia with this stuff though.

[MexiQuebecois]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

This is a VERY interesting perspective, and I've been waiting a long time to hear from a Mexican who is immigrating to Canada. So far I've only heard from Mexicans with romantic notions of what it might be like to live in Canada.

I wouldn't say that necessarily every single job is located in the capital - I have friends in other parts of the country and they have had no problems finding good employment. They live in mid-size cities, similar in size to Saskatoon or London, Ontario. However, the economic situation in Mexico City is likely better than many parts of the country. The city is indeed very crowded, and my least favorite daily activity is taking the subway in the morning. I'm getting used to it, at least.

You're very right about the reasons some Mexicans go to the United States - there is still a belief among many Mexicans that there are endless opportunities there. I even had an educated Mexican try and tell me that murders and even robberies never happen in the United States or Canada. Which is strange because Mexico City has a murder rate lower than many major U.S. cities; you're six times more likely to be murdered in Detroit, for example, according to the most recent statistics I've seen.

Your perspective on the post-secondary education system is also very interesting. I am a little biased, I guess, because every single Mexican I know who wanted to go to a public university got in without any problems. I haven't heard about the other side of the coin. Still, what would you rather have - the possibility of attending a university for free and be almost guaranteed a job in your field after graduating with no debt, or be guaranteed to pay $26,000 over four years and get stuck working at Tim Hortons after graduating, while battling debt?

The biggest difference I've noticed, however, is rent. I rent a nice apartment in Mexico City for CAD $150/month, and it is very secure. When I briefly lived in Toronto last year, I was paying $900/month for a dump that had no security and was less than half the size of the place I live in now. I'm surprised my laptop never got stolen.

There are many industries located in other parts of the country, but for the most part, if you want to make it big, you move to Mexico City, the possibility of transferring to other cities might come later. And yeah I hear you, I'm too much of a p*ssy to dare and drive here, so public transportation it is for me. Taking the subway sucks and I avoid it when possible, I also take a lot of taxis since they're ridiculously cheap, even compared to other parts of the country.
And yes, Mexico City is surprisingly safe for its size. Not once have I felt insecure going about my regular activities.

Regarding post-secondary education, I'm a little divided on the issue, especially with everything that is happening in Québec (since I'm going back to Montréal soon!) Here are my opinions:

First of all, Universities have to get funds one way or another, don't think that because they're free, that the government is paying for the whole bill. UNAM charges like 50 mexican cents, which equals a nickel, a joke I know, but not free they also have many events to raise funds. UABC (my state university) is "free" but every semester there is a raffle and you're obligated to sell ALL 10 tickets which cost 250 pesos each, otherwise you can't move on to the next semester, so not exactly free, right? Also remember that as a foreigner, you're probably interacting with the educated bunch of my country, those that had access to a different array of opportunities. I had the (mis)fortune to live a few years of my life in marginalized neighbourhoods, also my parents divorced when I was 6 months old. My father's side of the family is wealthy and they would be considered quite successful and middle/upper middle class, whereas my mom's side of the family would be considered to be in the poverty line. The difference between both sides of my family is quite astonishing, and I hear from both sides their perspective.

As to the question you asked me, I think paying American prices for education (think 10k+ per year) is TOO MUCH, but I also think that "free" education doesn't cut it either. The current Canadian prices are okay for me, And at least in Canada I have access to government loans and bursaries, which is the big difference. You can be smart with your money, and I plan on working and going to school at the same time, it's hard, but not impossible. Also not everyone in Mexico gets a guaranteed job after graduating, don't let your friends or coworkers sell you this image of Mexico. Look at both sides of the coin and then form your own opinions, you're speaking to the privileged society of my country. I know plenty of recent graduates making 5,000 pesos per month, I'd hardly call that a great job.

$150 per month? I don't know in which neighbourhood you live but boy you got lucky! I pay $350 per month for a bachelor in Colonia Roma, and all my friends tell me how I got a great deal! The same apartment in Polanco would be $700. Rents in Mexico City are relatively expensive though. My father back home in Tijuana pays $900 US dollars per month for a house with 3 bedroom, 2 bathrooms, an office and a huge backyard 5 blocks away from the beach.

There are certainly many plus and cons about Mexico/Canada, but IMO Canada wins easily just because of stability, lower crime rates, cultural offer (though hard to beat Mexico City here), and many other things. It's easier to be independent in Canada. Do you know how much is minimum wage in Mexico? 60 pesos per day! And I do know people making that, because the common argument is "oh but nobody makes that!" I know a lot of young people in unskilled jobs earning that, how can they be independent, move out of mom and dad's, go to school and make a decent living with that? Impossible. Here in Mexico if I wanted to go back to school, I'd have to move back to Tijuana to my dad's house, and I'm not doing that.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

The sales pitch these days is that university graduates earn more money over their lifetimes than others. While in university, it is common to hear from graduates who have found great jobs. Those speeches don't come with "Results not typical" disclaimers.

Only once during my high school or university years did I ever hear anything about graduates not being able to find jobs. It was in a sales pitch from a private school near Toronto that was doing presentations at my high school. Otherwise all I kept hearing was about all the great jobs that university graduates were working in. I don't know how they did it, but they sure had me fooled.

As far as I'm concerned, Canadian universities and colleges are big cash-generating machines, worried about nothing but making money from naive students so that they can blow money on overpaid professors and expensive rebranding campaigns (I'm looking at you, Western). That's one of the main reasons I'm an advocate of zero tuition.

yah - colleges are there to fill the seats - my instructors at culinary school were pretty candid and said a lot of school is just to fill the seat

i wonder if its a recent thing or always been that way, university always had its place but they definately seem to be pushing themselves more than ever

i look at my time in school - when i went to a college a lot of my classmates had completed their university degrees and just couldn't get jobs and came to college to get a diploma that would end up landing them that job

i can look at my own experience and look at people who i went to highschool with, depending on what they studied or didn't - i have classmates who went straight to work in a trade and now they are my age and own huge houses, second homes in mexico - a guy who was in the class below just bought his wife an audi sportscar for her 40th birthday, its parked next to their other Audi SUV

but i prefer city life instead of small city life

[niwell]

This info about Mexico is very fascinating, thanks MexiQuebecois!


$600 a month here for a room in a century old house in Toronto's east end. It's a great price considering what west end stuff is going for. And at the streetcar nexus of the city basically.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by someone123

Realistically, I don't think the cost of an undergrad degree has to be anywhere near what most students pay.

Many statistics show that only a small percentage of university funding comes from tuition payments, but only part of the expenses are undergrad education. The most important part for undergrads is lecturers and TAs. Neither get paid very well.

My guess is that most university money goes toward expensive research faculty and research labs, union wages for the bureaucracy and other workers, etc. None of this is really that important from an undergrad's perspective. Many great researchers are awful lecturers and don't even want to lecture.

I think universities need some pretty serious reforms. We might see this happen soon since some of the top schools are aggressively pushing online courses. There's a lot of social inertia with this stuff though.

As public institutions, budgetary info is (mostly) in the public domain. Here is info about Western (UWO):

http://www.ipb.uwo.ca/documents/2012_budget.pdf

[Copes]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

The sales pitch these days is that university graduates earn more money over their lifetimes than others. While in university, it is common to hear from graduates who have found great jobs. Those speeches don't come with "Results not typical" disclaimers.

Only once during my high school or university years did I ever hear anything about graduates not being able to find jobs. It was in a sales pitch from a private school near Toronto that was doing presentations at my high school. Otherwise all I kept hearing was about all the great jobs that university graduates were working in. I don't know how they did it, but they sure had me fooled.

As far as I'm concerned, Canadian universities and colleges are big cash-generating machines, worried about nothing but making money from naive students so that they can blow money on overpaid professors and expensive rebranding campaigns (I'm looking at you, Western). That's one of the main reasons I'm an advocate of zero tuition.

Sounds about right. I went to a rural high school, and we did hear a lot of "don't worry kids, trade school is just as viable as University, think about that too." The way it was phrased though, it came off as a sort of second-rate option. A good backup plan. Which is silly, since trades are arguably a more desired skill set right now than a Sociology degree.

I feel like many educators don't like giving high school students the truth for fear of discouraging them, or perhaps it is the idea that parents would be outraged if anything was said to make their little darling think about an option other than University. Whatever the case, I certainly had the perspective coming out of high school that University was for the top-notch students, and it was a pretty guaranteed road to success.

[Acajack]

Here is how I got onto the property ladder.

I graduated from university in 1991. I went to university in the same city that my parents lived in at the time, so I lived at home and had no student debts.

Between 1991 and 1995 I had so-so jobs and didn't really do much with respect to settling down. About mid-way through the period I got a girlfriend who eventually became my wife. She was a student at the time and remained so for a while. (Lots of student debts in her case.)

Around 1994-1995 we started thinking about getting married. I got a better job around this time and Madame Acajack was still studying. We were living in Ottawa and one of the things we did on occasion was visit model homes around the capital region. Without really thinking seriously about buying.

Around the same time as the wedding bells rang we visited a builder in Gatineau, where house prices were rock-bottom in the post-referendum blues period. They had small, 1300-square-foot single-family houses for $100,000. And they were barely 10 km from downtown Ottawa.

And here is where it gets interesting.

This is most certainly against the rules and also probably against the law, but they were offering houses with 100% financing. No money down. What they would do is increase the selling price by the amount of the down payment required by the bank, get the buyer to get a member of their family to sign a note saying they had given their son or daughter the amount of the (fictional) down payment as a gift, and then finance the rest with the bank. The "rest" being the full selling price that the builder wanted for the house.

A few years later, when we moved up to a bigger house we sold our first $100,000 house for double what we paid for it. These houses sell for around $300,000 today.

[Ashok]

That is a great story rousseau! You are lucky, you seem adventurous + spontaneous and it seems you got to see a lot because of that.

Vid, I always am fascinated by your stories! You are one of the most intelligent guys I met on these forums. I hope one day you will be able to make something great of your life, and push past your circumstances. When you do that, I really hope you write a book or something. You have a knack for writing, and I think your story will be so peculiar + interesting for many of us.

*

I, myself am quite fortunate. When I started my engineering degree; I also started my internship at a firm. I have one more year left, but I already accumulated some experience from the firm.

I feel quite confident about my job prospect when I graduate. However, I am aware that my field is a bit more demanding then others + it was not typical for guys studying to be also working within their field.

*

I would like bringing up a point; in our generation; I feel learning is less valued. Professional fields are more and more specialized. For example, it is common to find young doctors who have very little knowledge in social issues. I even met young adults in the field of psychology who were largely ignorant to issues outside their own specialization within the field. On the overall, I feel we are less well rounded then past generation - despite the contradiction that our generation has access to the most: information, travels, activities.

I feel this may make our lives more difficult - what do you guys feel?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by davidivivid

The student protests in Quebec are very much a manifestation of this inevitable confrontation. Every week, Quebec’s youth is witnessing politicians making decisions geared toward appeasing their biggest electoral constituents: baby boomers. Ste-Justine hospital is expanding; McGill and UdM are each currently building mega-hospitals; the Ministère des Transport is investing $700M to replace road signs because font size is now considered too small for seniors; reforms of public pension plan funding seem to be off the agenda, etc etc etc. Hence, when the government announced its plan to significantly increase tuitions, it was la goutte qui a fait déborder le vase for many current and future higher education students for two main reasons.

First of all, the students are rightfully questioning whether the extra money thus collected will indeed be invested in the betterment of the higher education system. There are presently no guarantees to that effect and certainly no oversight either. Hence, the government may very well choose to take money from the students’ pockets to finance healthcare programs for the elderly. In fact, it seems that such a tactic already is implemented.

Also, as sad as it may be, the younger generation obviously believes that it cannot affect or bring change only through their votes on provincial elections because demographics simply aren’t on their side. This new reality will affect every province in Canada sooner or later: the needs of older generations, centered around healthcare, will take precedence over the needs of the youth because politicians want to be elected. I believe this is why Quebec students are trying to influence or at least to have their voices heard in other ways then through their votes.

Super-interesting post. Just one point, though: some of the biggest and fairly new expenses of the Quebec government are subsidized daycare and enriched parental leave top-ups (RQAP). Both of these greatly benefit younger generations.

BTW - I am not a baby boomer. I am a parent of young elementary school aged children.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ashok

That is a great story rousseau! You are lucky, you seem adventurous + spontaneous and it seems you got to see a lot because of that.

Vid, I always am fascinated by your stories! You are one of the most intelligent guys I met on these forums. I hope one day you will be able to make something great of your life, and push past your circumstances. When you do that, I really hope you write a book or something. You have a knack for writing, and I think your story will be so peculiar + interesting for many of us.

*

I, myself am quite fortunate. When I started my engineering degree; I also started my internship at a firm. I have one more year left, but I already accumulated some experience from the firm.

I feel quite confident about my job prospect when I graduate. However, I am aware that my field is a bit more demanding then others + it was not typical for guys studying to be also working within their field.

*

I would like bringing up a point; in our generation; I feel learning is less valued. Professional fields are more and more specialized. For example, it is common to find young doctors who have very little knowledge in social issues. I even met young adults in the field of psychology who were largely ignorant to issues outside their own specialization within the field. On the overall, I feel we are less well rounded then past generation - despite the contradiction that our generation has access to the most: information, travels, activities.

I feel this may make our lives more difficult - what do you guys feel?

Don't know it it will make our lives more difficult. Perhaps it will make the lives of our political leaders and those who are behind the scenes easier because the population will be less aware and easier to manipulate.

In any event, (North) American education systems have generally always been more about producing future "employees", when compared at the least to European ones, that are more about producing future "citizens".

[patm]

Originally Posted by Copes

Which is silly, since trades are arguably a more desired skill set right now than a Sociology degree.

I really hope no one would actually try to argue that.

I hope people who are taking Sociology, Philosiphy... any "arts" degree are doing it for the love of the field and not to get a job out of it. What could you do with those degrees besides teach??

Trades have to be tied with the more useful B.A.'s like accounting (and Supply Chain ) as assets in entering the workforce and easily ahead of majors like marketing (no offense to anyone, just a really tough industry to get into)

Although I'm suprised that Geology grads are having it so tough. You'd think they would be grabbed by all the energy companies, especially with the arctic starting to thaw...

[flar]

Originally Posted by patm

I really hope no one would actually try to argue that.

I hope people who are taking Sociology, Philosiphy... any "arts" degree are doing it for the love of the field and not to get a job out of it. What could you do with those degrees besides teach??

Not sure about Philosophy, but there are many things you can do with sociology besides teaching. Like market research, public opinion research, public relations, and other forms of consulting for social services, government and NGOs. Probably the majority of policy analysts in the public sector have either economics or sociology degrees. Sociology is a wide ranging discipline that can merge into health studies and epidemiology, demography, politics and economics. Statistics Canada employs many sociologists doing all kinds of social research, some of which we enjoy on this website. I even know a sociologist who was successful in the oil and gas industry.

Sociology gets a bad rap because it's one of those subjects that tons of aimless undergrads take because it's perceived as easy. It's a very broad discipline in which one can easily specialize in topics that are fairly useless (eg, postmodern theory). Those who are smart enough to take advantage of a sociology degree come out with useful skills (eg, statistics).

[patm]

Yeah I realized that after I posted that Sociology could be useful in understanding demography.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Copes

Sounds about right. I went to a rural high school, and we did hear a lot of "don't worry kids, trade school is just as viable as University, think about that too." The way it was phrased though, it came off as a sort of second-rate option. A good backup plan. Which is silly, since trades are arguably a more desired skill set right now than a Sociology degree.

I feel like many educators don't like giving high school students the truth for fear of discouraging them, or perhaps it is the idea that parents would be outraged if anything was said to make their little darling think about an option other than University. Whatever the case, I certainly had the perspective coming out of high school that University was for the top-notch students, and it was a pretty guaranteed road to success.

I think that outraging parents would be the most likely option. We were always basically told that if you were smart, you went to university, and if you weren't smart, you went to college. Therefore, telling anyone to consider college would've been considered an insult. Trades were barely even discussed, if at all. And sure enough, the students with the high marks all went on to university, while the other students either went to college or ended their formal education there. Ironically, the one student I know who had low marks in high school and went to Fanshawe College has ended up being the wealthiest person I know under age 30 that came out of my high school. Trades pay well.

University was always pitched as some sort of guaranteed road to success. But, I look around at who has been the most successful, and many of those have been college grads. Those who went to university have had mixed results. Those who did not go to college or university are the people who are suffering the most, except that they don't have student debt.

I still remember when I was in undergrad at Western, how many students were pumped about taking psychology or sociology. They seriously thought that they were going to become psychologists or sociologists. Many ended up at Teachers' College, and then found there were very few jobs in that field after graduating.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by MexiQuebecois

And yes, Mexico City is surprisingly safe for its size. Not once have I felt insecure going about my regular activities.

I'm glad you're enlightened on the issue. It never ceases to amaze me how many Mexico City citizens think they live in hell here, surrounded by endless crime and murders. It really does bother me when I hear comments about how they live in hell while people in the United States apparently never experience any crime whatsoever.

Originally Posted by MexiQuebecois

$150 per month? I don't know in which neighbourhood you live but boy you got lucky! I pay $350 per month for a bachelor in Colonia Roma, and all my friends tell me how I got a great deal! The same apartment in Polanco would be $700. Rents in Mexico City are relatively expensive though. My father back home in Tijuana pays $900 US dollars per month for a house with 3 bedroom, 2 bathrooms, an office and a huge backyard 5 blocks away from the beach.

I'm definitely not in Roma or Polanco...I'm in the north end of the city. It's a mixed neighbourhood...some middle class, some lower class. I live in a nice place, but it's one of the few nice-looking buildings on the street. Crime is low here, however, as there is a police station close by and they patrol the area very well.

I've heard of apartments in Mexico City going for as low as $111 CAD. I haven't visited any of those, however.