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  #1  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2017, 7:28 PM
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Is the Canadian immigration points system's influence overstated compared to the US?

Sometimes the Canadian points-based immigration system makes its way into the American political discourse or stimulates discussion, and there are Americans who praise it for favoring the needs of the economy, rather than family reunification. Some say that the points system is good in how selective it is in picking highly educated, skilled workers rather than just the "average Joe" who comes in because he has family in the country.

However, from what I hear, it appears that Canada's immigrants aren't doing socio-economically that much better than south of the border. Many groups like Indian-American immigrants actually attain more on average than their Canadian counterparts economically and educationally. Many more foreign-born Canadians get stuck with jobs they're "overqualified for" than Americans who seem to translate their credentials and skills into greater actual use.

Naturalized Americans who were once immigrants are very high achieving and they make up a good chunk of high socio-economic status occupations like CEOs, artists, writers, intellectuals, tech workers, scientists etc. so even if there's a high percentage of less well-off immigrants, I think Americans have gotten a large share of its immigration contributing a large amount to society.

The US, even if not having a points system in the same way, has no problem attracting the world's best and brightest talent, and even brain drains away immigrants who came using Canada's points system and used the latter as merely a way-station.

So I hear contradictory statements about the "problems" or "advantages" with either the US or Canadian immigration systems, but the Canadian (or Australian) points system is still no match for the pull of the American dream.
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Old Posted Oct 12, 2017, 8:28 PM
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the American dream is perhaps less enticing as of late.
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Old Posted Oct 12, 2017, 8:39 PM
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The US attracts higher quality immigrants, but it also lets in a larger proportion of low quality ones. What you keep out is more important than what you let in.
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Old Posted Oct 12, 2017, 8:47 PM
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The US attracts higher quality immigrants, but it also lets in a larger proportion of low quality ones. What you keep out is more important than what you let in.
This is how I tend to see things as well.
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Old Posted Oct 12, 2017, 10:27 PM
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I remember watching a story a few years ago about this on the ABC show 2020, I think it was, about an immigrant from India, he was a doctor and iniitially got into Canada and could not find work as a doctor as no place would recognize his credentials etc. So he was given a chance to go to the states, he had to take some test to prove himself etc. I think it was one of the Dakotas where he ended up and was welcomed with open arms and had been running a very successful practice, the locals loved him and had a great reputation at the state level and he was happy but disappointed with his Canadian experience which was his first choice to settle.
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 4:11 AM
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Canada's Immigration bureaucrats seem to do a stellar job of letting in skilled workers and simultaneously making it as hard as possible for those skilled workers to use their skills. Conversely they make unskilled refugees who often lack even English/French language requirements fell welcome and letting them by-pass official borders to make a claim knowing it will take so long to go thru the refugee bureaucracy that they will all be allowed to stay.
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Canada's Immigration bureaucrats seem to do a stellar job of letting in skilled workers and simultaneously making it as hard as possible for those skilled workers to use their skills. Conversely they make unskilled refugees who often lack even English/French language requirements fell welcome and letting them by-pass official borders to make a claim knowing it will take so long to go thru the refugee bureaucracy that they will all be allowed to stay.
That actually has more to do with provincial regulators than with the immigration bureaucracy, no?
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 2:12 PM
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That actually has more to do with provincial regulators than with the immigration bureaucracy, no?
Well that hints at the bigger problem of Canada doing a poor job of promoting its national interests through cooperation with the Provinces. I'm a big fan of decentralisation, but Canada goes too far with its weak sense of national goals.
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 2:13 PM
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No argument from me ....
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 2:34 PM
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Well that hints at the bigger problem of Canada doing a poor job of promoting its national interests through cooperation with the Provinces. I'm a big fan of decentralisation, but Canada goes too far with its weak sense of national goals.
I'll argue the opposite.

Every time we've had a 'national goal', we've done a better job of effectively dividing ourselves than uniting ourselves - with maybe the exception of the Canadian Pacific Railway.

The era of 1970-1995 was filled with "national goals" and it was one of the most bitter eras in federal-provincial relationships. By and large since then, we've not had much in the way of national goals and things have been relatively peaceful.

Things that unite other countries tend to divide us - for instance, the World Wars produced division in Canada whilst they produced unity in other countries.

We're a funny country that way. We do better when we focus on maintaining the status quo and getting things done by incrementalism, especially at the federal level.
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Canada's Immigration bureaucrats seem to do a stellar job of letting in skilled workers and simultaneously making it as hard as possible for those skilled workers to use their skills. Conversely they make unskilled refugees who often lack even English/French language requirements fell welcome and letting them by-pass official borders to make a claim knowing it will take so long to go thru the refugee bureaucracy that they will all be allowed to stay.
I can't speak for other professions, but for Engineers - it should be no mystery to any immigrant as to what countries the provincial associations view engineering degrees as "equivalent" to those obtained in Canada.

For those that arrive in Canada with degrees from countries that don't meet the criteria, there are ways to demonstrate technical competency, and obtain the necessary Canadian experience. It happens all the time, but does take time and requires a willing employer.

The provincial professional associations have a legal duty to protect the safety of Canadians - not to fast track immigrants into getting credentials that could pose serious public safety risks.
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 2:58 PM
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I can't speak for other professions, but for Engineers - it should be no mystery to any immigrant as to what countries the provincial associations view engineering degrees as "equivalent" to those obtained in Canada.

For those that arrive in Canada with degrees from countries that don't meet the criteria, there are ways to demonstrate technical competency, and obtain the necessary Canadian experience. It happens all the time, but does take time and requires a willing employer.

The provincial professional associations have a legal duty to protect the safety of Canadians - not to fast track immigrants into getting credentials that could pose serious public safety risks.
I agree, although there is a general perception (for good reason, I believe) that the professions and provinces could be doing more to facilitate the process by which immigrants obtain Canadian qualifications. I'm particularly sceptical of any requirement for "Canadian experience" - it has too often been misused.
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 3:04 PM
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I agree, although there is a general perception (for good reason, I believe) that the professions and provinces could be doing more to facilitate the process by which immigrants obtain Canadian qualifications. I'm particularly sceptical of any requirement for "Canadian experience" - it has too often been misused.
The Canadian experience is a big one for Engineering associations - and for good reason.

Canada has Codes, rules and regulations, climatic extremes and other things that can be quite different to what many P.Eng. hopefuls have experienced in their home countries.

To become a P.Eng. in Canada without some degree of demonstrable Canadian experience is not possible - and that's fine by me.
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 3:09 PM
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Quebec just had a cabinet shuffle this week and one of the ministers was explicitly given the mandate to loosen up professional certifications so that more highly trained and educated professionals from abroad can work in their areas of expertise here in Quebec.
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 3:17 PM
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Quebec just had a cabinet shuffle this week and one of the ministers was explicitly given the mandate to loosen up professional certifications so that more highly trained and educated professionals from abroad can work in their areas of expertise here in Quebec.
Perhaps Quebec is different, but for the ROC - the government does not have the power instruct the provincial Engineering associations to do that, and I can't imagine any of the other professional associations either.

IMO what you are suggesting Quebec is doing is a pretty bad idea. You can have all the highly educated and trained professionals you want - but until they can demonstrate those skills and qualifications to the various regulatory associations in Canada - they shouldn't be able to practice their skills at a professional level in Canada, and WE shouldn't want them to.
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 3:18 PM
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The Canadian experience is a big one for Engineering associations - and for good reason.

Canada has Codes, rules and regulations, climatic extremes and other things that can be quite different to what many P.Eng. hopefuls have experienced in their home countries.

To become a P.Eng. in Canada without some degree of demonstrable Canadian experience is not possible - and that's fine by me.
I ask this out of ignorance - what Canadian experience would a Canadian engineering student not in a coop program bring to his first employer?
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 3:23 PM
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I ask this out of ignorance - what Canadian experience would a Canadian engineering student not in a coop program bring to his first employer?
They don't. But they have 4 years to get it. Just the same as any other Engineer in Training (EIT).

If someone immigrates to Canada, they have to complete the same process as any other EIT. Which means obtaining 4 years of acceptable work experience. Within those four years, there needs to be a significant portion of "Canadian Work Experience".

A lot of applicants from outside of Canada become EITs and then try to claim previous work experince towards their EIT requirements. This is fine - but you cannot come in and back claim 4 years - from say Dubai - and then hope to become registered. You could back claim a portion of that, but the rest needs to be made up of Canadian experience (which can sometimes mean working for a Canadian company in a foreign country).
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 3:27 PM
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Perhaps Quebec is different, but for the ROC - the government does not have the power instruct the provincial Engineering associations to do that, and I can't imagine any of the other professional associations either.

IMO what you are suggesting Quebec is doing is a pretty bad idea. You can have all the highly educated and trained professionals you want - but until they can demonstrate those skills and qualifications to the various regulatory associations in Canada - they shouldn't be able to practice their skills at a professional level in Canada, and WE shouldn't want them to.
Maybe "loosen up" was not the right choice of words. I have no idea what the details of the plan are. At the moment it is extremely difficult for a foreign-trained doctor or engineer to work in Quebec in their field. The various professional orders here are very very powerful. The idea is to make things *less* impossible for the foreign-trained, and almost certainly not to cut corners and let anybody get certified on a fast-track.
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 3:31 PM
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Maybe "loosen up" was not the right choice of words. I have no idea what the details of the plan are. At the moment it is extremely difficult for a foreign-trained doctor or engineer to work in Quebec in their field. The various professional orders here are very very powerful. The idea is to make things *less* impossible for the foreign-trained, and almost certainly not to cut corners and let anybody get certified on a fast-track.
Just an FYI - but it is extremely difficult for a Canadian trained engineer to work in Quebec, let alone immigrants.

I don't know of many "national" engineering consulting firms that maintain offices in Quebec.
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Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 3:41 PM
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Just an FYI - but it is extremely difficult for a Canadian trained engineer to work in Quebec, let alone immigrants.

I don't know of many "national" engineering consulting firms that maintain offices in Quebec.
Quod erat demonstrandum. Precisely why the door won't be opened wide to foreign-trained professionals here. Organizations like the Ordre des ingénieurs and the Collège des médicins would never stand for that. It will be gradual - a drop at a time.
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